Tyranid Economy

[Crewfinity]

I suggested to lower the vanilla Fex cost and increase the upgrade costs. Preferably just the first. Vanilla fex should cost less because its not a viable play option unupgraded as it is atm, its simply to high of a cost for what you get: slow, high cost, no ability.

Coral is Karl, from The walking dead, it became a meme thing.

Also, im comparing the endless swam upgrade cost to the imperial guardsmen squad upgrade sergeant.

Sure, we can take some games. Just be gentle ^^

4 ES Endless Swarm
How different are Hormagaunts/Termagants from Guardsman infantry squads really? I think the endless swarm upgrade should revolve more around requisition rather than power (if power at all). It takes quite a while to get that upgrade in aswell. Gaunts upgrades doesnt bring in more options really, "rather just makes them slightly better at what they do". Yes, horma can leap a 50% longer, but what do you really get for AG and ES? Its 110r/30p after all. Hormas get temporarily/ situational "faster", 10% more dmg (2 per hit), 10% hp (8 per model), they dont get any ability or new options gameplay wise. Its a req unit that will bleed, theyre designed to bleed and die, forcing the player to put in to much power to get more req conservative is wrong. AG at 15p to hormas seems somewhat/ almost legit atleast (make it 10p), but the ES 15p? Nah.

Its not like hormagaunts has a detonation or are possibile to be a detector unit, no grenade upgrade, shields, heavy infantry model with higher melee skill/hp, upgrades (oh well the end pair do count..). They are a plain bleeding high model melee unit, that pays 110r/30p to make them slightly better with the limited options they do have. Imo thats just to much precious power spent for what limited extra buff/ "options" you get in return. Endless swarm is about requisition cost effiencey, let it be about req and not revolve around power. Nids already need the power for SM, barbed strangler 50p, devourer ravs 55p, hero upgrades and the usual gaunt upgrades. Endless swarm could very well be a t1 upgrade aswell and be around 80req or so.

So, what you get is two gaunts which shares damage and die last. Probably has their own hp and dmg, thats 25% more hp in the unit, and that pair can tank 160 dmg, wow. Its mainly there to just survive i would assume. This is assuming the endless swarm gaunts works just like the other hormas, with the exception to share damage and die last.

Termagants, TS gives them another option; to slow. Its just 5s though but gives them a few more options, slow to avoid/ dodge or slow to damage. I would say TS's 15p upgrade cost is more legit than hormas 15p upgrade cost, because of the increased options/ possibilities given. Endless Swarm, doesnt bring Termas any more options, its basically just a cost effiencey upgrade, it doesnt bring anything new to the plate for Termas. Therefore it shouldnt cost power, its about req.

Endless swarm is like the Guardsman infantry squads upgrade Sergeant, it makes them better at what they already do, it lowers the bleed costs, it does not give them more options.

moving this here so we dont derail the 2.5 thread any more.

termagaunts and hormagaunts are VERY different from guardsmen. not really a good comparison to make. also i'm not really understanding many of your arguments. gaunts are going to be your primary source of bleed since they're so fragile, investing a one time cost of 60/15 to permanently reduce your bleed on those squads by 50% is amazing. if you aren't able to see that, it could explain a lot of why you think the nid economy isn't as robust as it actually is. if endless swarm only cost requisiton it would be a braindead upgrade, since by only losing 4 models you've already saved 30 req. it would take about a minute for that upgrade to pay for itself. 15 power is really not that much, especially when you consider the long term effects on your economy through gaunt bleed. i absolutely disagree that it should be a req-only upgrade, and i disagree even more that it should be in t1. that would be really unbalanced lol

hormagaunts dont need any extra abilities. they're already faster than most basic squads, and they get huge bonuses from synapse to go along with their extremely high melee damage (160 melee dps base). keep in mind that with warriors around, they get a passive 20% damage reduction, and once warriors get adrenal glands they gain an additional 40% health and 10 melee skill. consider this: in T2 with AG warriors around and with their upgrades, hormagaunts have 220 melee dps, 1120 hp with 20% damage and suppression resistance, and reinforce 2 at a time for 15 req. that's an amazingly cost efficient unit, and synapse scales with levels ofc. now that warriors have reverse synapse its even crazier with their massive heavy melee dps in a nid swarm.

termagaunts may seem weak but with upgrades they also become a pretty awesome unit. with upgrades and venom brood around a full brood can put out 70.8 piercing dps while getting the ranged synapse health buff up to 1031 hp. again they can reinforce for 15 req per 2 models, making your bleed negligable, especially once you start supporting your blob with the health regen synapse from a zoanthrope.

nids as a faction rely heavily on synapse, a fact that you seem to be consistently overlooking in your analysis of their abilities, damage output, and economics. with massive armywide buffs to health regen, health pools, and damage resistance, along with reduced bleed costs for the squishy squads, it gets incredibly difficult to put significant pressure on the nid economy, a fact that is amplified by their ability to field more squads (thus generating more map control) as well as faster speed on most of their basic squads, giving them very good mobility.

all of this means that nids have an easier time saving up resources, which means that while the 600/150 price tag for a carnifex may seem unreasonable, it really is not that tough of a blow on your economy, making its performance for the cost reasonable, especially when you consider that they get access to long range AV, long range anti-all, and the ability to go full tanky through thornback.

if you have any more questions or concerns i can try to address them, but i really think you need to get more games in and try buying these upgrades. they're well worth it, and may let you afford carnifexes much easier.

[saltychipmunk]

Well, the hormagaunt upgrade is pretty shit even if the unit itself is not. most of the time i forget to even buy it. Makes me wonder why it is there at all.

[Crewfinity]

it may seem like shit when you look at the base unit, sure. 10% damage and health buff, and jumping over cover?
however, once you start getting a bunch of synapse buffs, that 10% damage and health is a lot more significant since they have higher damage and health values being multiplied around.

hormagaunts w/o AG near regular warriors:
640 HP, (800 effective HP b/c damage reduction), 160 melee dps

hormagaunts w/ AG near regular warriors:
704 HP, 880 effective HP, 176 melee dps

hormagaunts w/o AG near AG warriors:
896 hp, 1120 effective HP, 160 melee dps

hormagaunts w/ AG near AG warriors:
985.6 HP, 1232 effective HP, 176 melee dps

hormagaunts w/ AG and ES near regular warriors:
880 hp, 1100 effective HP, 220 melee dps

hormagaunts w/ AG and ES near AG warriors:
1232 HP, 1540 effective HP, 220 melee dps

so while it may not seem that great in the early game, once you start getting those upgraded synapses it really snowballs. it also makes hormagaunts really good at chasing down units in retreat. particularly now that warriors have reverse synapse, its a very viable strategy to get double hormagaunts and warriors, and really capitalize on their high heavy melee dps (around 115 with 20 gaunts around them). for only 50/15 its a decent point-of-purchase upgrade that scales well and opens up some options on flanking/retreat killing.

[Nurland]

Endless swarm reduces gaunt/gant bleed to under 50% since the ES models are die last members. Just thought I'd point out.

Horma AG is not really a priority upgrade generally but it is not expensive and I think it is worth it in the long run especially if you intend to use them as a combat unit. Leaping over cover is very good for retreat chasing etc and 10 increase in damage is nothing to scoff at a squad that already has very high base dps. With ES when you get 220dps melee from 8 pop squad

[Crewfinity]

^^ absolutely right.

i'm not entirely sure how the health multipliers all work out, my assumption is:
640(base hp)*1.1(Adrenal glands buff)*1.4 (synapse buff) since the synapse is a multiplier, while the AG upgrade is a flat health increase

and yeah the key is how inexpensive these squads are to maintain. when you have squads with 220 melee dps and upwards of 1200 hp, it gets really tough to win the attrition war against tyranids.

same deal with termagants really. pretty bad base stats, but they go HAM when you start getting upgrades and synapse, and their upkeep/bleed rate is negligible.

food for thought:

tacs w/ sarge deal ~43.74 piercing dps, have 1050 HP (1567 effective HP vs piercing weapons) at 15 pop and 38.25 upkeep, and reinforcements cost 75 req

termagants w ES/TS near venom brood with ranged synapse deal 70.86 piercing dps, have 1031 HP, 1289 effective HP, at 8 population and 30.6 upkeep, and reinforcements cost 15 req for 2 models.

nids can win these attrition fights, since they only have to kill one tac model to have less bleed, no matter how many models they lose (unless the squad wipes).

[Thunderhost]

Regarding AG upgrade on HGs - NO AG NO charge IIRC.

[Crewfinity]

they still have a melee charge(leap) without AG, it just increases the range of their leap from 8 to 12. also allows them to jump over cover like aspect of swiftness banshees

[HiveSpirit]

Leap over cover is something Hormagaunts do while theyre under synapse. Got nothing to do with the upgrade, could be old school or mixed up with banshees upgrade.

Also, you can use termagants or! Rippers, for buffing reverse synapse warriors.

Hormas still got a "charge" before buying AG, i dont fully understand it, but seem to activate vs retreating or units falling back. Ive laborated with hormas charge and it doesnt seem to exist at will really. It doesnt get activated when in the right range/ radius, nor after the leap. But they have run faster in the cases when the opponent retreats or pulls back. Im not sure what activates it, the pull back/ showing their rear, or the retreat.

Im not happy with the warriors beeing size medium:

5 Heavy Infantry - Size Small

Its so wrong.. FC, WB, BroC, size small. TSM, ASM, Raptors, Havocs, CSM small. Ogryns small. SS small. All these non commanders have HI or SHI armor though? But Warriors, should have size medium? Melee pvp, plasma pvp, bolter pvp, flamer pvp and supression pvp will still do as much dmg vs these poor warriors. Size medium for warriors means the following weapons get viable vs them:

anti_vehicle_pvp (csm dread missiles), 0.2 insteed of 0.05.
missile_pvp, TSM missile launcher, 0.2 insteed of 0.05.
armor_piercing_pvp/ brightlance_pvp (venom cannon, lascannons), 0.3 insteed of 0.05.
(minor change) CSM's autocannon's, 0.9 insteed of 0.8.

These weapons get viable to hurt the one of a kind rare: medium sized Tyranid Warrior, extra crispy and shoot up. But these weapons are not viable vs CSM, TSM, majorety of commanders, ASM, raptors, havocs, devs, ogryns.. Isnt that strange? And all of these units are heavy infantry? (Except Ogryns and commanders). Havnt these Thug-Life warriors had enough? Theyre in dire need for some size small chillax.

Most of these weapons does aoe damage and will hit something in a blob anyway. Nonetheless, giving them 20-30% chance to hit instead of 5%, on what you want them to hit, makes them viable weapons vs warriors/ size medium units. This kinda means that every weapon in the game will more or less be viable vs warriors, and that just shouldnt be.

Btw, it would be awesome if non devourer raveners and genestelers worked with the AGWB reverse synapse aswell.

[HiveSpirit]

@Crewfinity

tacs w/ sarge deal ~43.74 piercing dps, have 1050 HP (1567 effective HP vs piercing weapons)

Your forgetting to nametion the benefit of low model and cover. Tacs shooting in the open is just plain stupid.
Vs piercing dmg in light cover tacs would have 1.375*1567=2154 EHP
In heavy cover 1.584*1567=2482 ehp
Garrison 1.7*1567=2663 ehp

[Crewfinity]

i think warriors being size medium is a balance consideration due to tyranids not having vehicles like other races do.

because they only have the TG in T2 as a quasi-vehicle, AV weapons are much less effective and flexible than they are vs other races. having warriors and venom brood as size medium means that those weapons have some role to play in fighting nids beyond finishing off a downed tyrant guard.

those synpase creatures are the lynchpin to the entire Tyranid faction. they provide so many buffs that they have to have some significant downsides, seen through synapse bombs and vulnerability to improved damage sources (anti HI and to some extent AV)

if they weren't size medium, it would be much easier as a tyranid player to buy a tyrant guard to force AV purchases from your opponent, and then capitalize on those weapon's lack of usefullness throughout the rest of T2.

other races, when AV is purchased against them, are dissuaded from purchasing vehicles, oftentimes a crucial element of T2 play. nids have this weakness through synapse creature vulnerability.

[Crewfinity]

@Crewfinity

tacs w/ sarge deal ~43.74 piercing dps, have 1050 HP (1567 effective HP vs piercing weapons)

Your forgetting to nametion the benefit of low model and cover. Tacs shooting in the open is just plain stupid.
Vs piercing dmg in light cover tacs would have 1.375*1567=2154 EHP
In heavy cover 1.584*1567=2482 ehp
Garrison 1.7*1567=2663 ehp

i was trying to illustrate relative unit effectiveness, rather than a combat situation. it comes down a lot more to player skill to minimize cover advantages (eg by pressuring other areas to force movement, using zoans to punish static defenses, disrupting with ravs, etc), not to mention utilize cover for their own units. it quickly gets much more complex when you look at a hypothetical scenario, but my point was that termagants and hormagants are extremely cost effective with their upgrades.

[Forestradio]

nid eco is broken as fuck, combination of insane map control, fast units and very little upkeep/bleed (lol models that don't cost population) as well as ridiculous abilities like flesh hook or pheromones just troll everything

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9819549
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9821269

nuff said

[HiveSpirit]

i think warriors being size medium is a balance consideration due to tyranids not having vehicles like other races do.

because they only have the TG in T2 as a quasi-vehicle, AV weapons are much less effective and flexible than they are vs other races. having warriors and venom brood as size medium means that those weapons have some role to play in fighting nids beyond finishing off a downed tyrant guard.

those synpase creatures are the lynchpin to the entire Tyranid faction. they provide so many buffs that they have to have some significant downsides, seen through synapse bombs and vulnerability to improved damage sources (anti HI and to some extent AV)

if they weren't size medium, it would be much easier as a tyranid player to buy a tyrant guard to force AV purchases from your opponent, and then capitalize on those weapon's lack of usefullness throughout the rest of T2.

other races, when AV is purchased against them, are dissuaded from purchasing vehicles, oftentimes a crucial element of T2 play. nids have this weakness through synapse creature vulnerability.

Why should warriors be have two downsides just for existing? Isnt synapse bomb enough? Those bombs deal ALOT of dmg to those under their synapse:
-Hormagaunts, Termagants, Raveners, Rippers, and T3 Lictor all take 14% health damage.
-Genestealers take 18% health damage.
-Carnifexes and Tyrant Guards take 10% health damage.
Per synapse bomb.. Plus the weapon knockback..

I would like to emphasis on how powerful that knockback is for the opponent, you deal alot of ranged damage and get alot of melee hits in, in that time..

"Tyranids doesnt have vehicles, then lets make it even easier to kill warriors"
-What kind of argument is that?
Devastator lascannon should not be able to hit warriors..
TSM missile launcher will hit something in a blob wether way, they should not be able to choose to specifically hit the warriors.
Plasma guns will still do as much damage/ are as accuracy vs size small targets.

How viable and good are warriors in T3 because of this crap when all the weapons in the game are viable vs them..?!
Its not like they got terminator much hp.

Why should the game give leniency to opponents of Tyranids who buys AV to take down a TG, SL or Fex?
Cant venom cannons get some leniency then aswell vs small targets? I mean, if i invest in some venom brood, why shouldnt i be able to use it against other heavy infantry units then atleast? Its not like Venom cannons got damage type venom_cannon_pvp and doing 1.5 dmg vs gens.

Or give all heavy infantry units size medium? It makes just as much sence as warriors having size medium.

[Crewfinity]

Why should warriors be have two downsides just for existing? Isnt synapse bomb enough? Those bombs deal ALOT of dmg to those under their synapse:
-Hormagaunts, Termagants, Raveners, Rippers, and T3 Lictor all take 14% health damage.
-Genestealers take 18% health damage.
-Carnifexes and Tyrant Guards take 10% health damage.
Per synapse bomb.. Plus the weapon knockback..

I would like to emphasis on how powerful that knockback is for the opponent, you deal alot of ranged damage and get alot of melee hits in, in that time..

sure. i would like to emphasize just how powerful normal synapse is. it has to have some pretty big drawbacks to be balanced. keep in mind that it scales with levels, which translates to a massive performance increase if used well.

"Tyranids doesnt have vehicles, then lets make it even easier to kill warriors"
-What kind of argument is that?
Devastator lascannon should not be able to hit warriors..
TSM missile launcher will hit something in a blob wether way, they should not be able to choose to specifically hit the warriors.
Plasma guns will still do as much damage/ are as accuracy vs size small targets.

because even AV weapons are not that great in T2 versus nids. they only have one 'vehicle' and it has SHI armor instead of normal vehicle armor. so even by getting the counter's they're still less effective than they normally would be. having a higher chance to hit synapse creatures helps balance out that deficit in performance. it's not like people are getting missile launchers against nids unless there is a TG on the field. even then the plasma gun might be better.

How viable and good are warriors in T3 because of this crap when all the weapons in the game are viable vs them..?!
Its not like they got terminator much hp.

Why should the game give leniency to opponents of Tyranids who buys AV to take down a TG, SL or Fex?
Cant venom cannons get some leniency then aswell vs small targets? I mean, if i invest in some venom brood, why shouldnt i be able to use it against other heavy infantry units then atleast? Its not like Venom cannons got damage type venom_cannon_pvp and doing 1.5 dmg vs gens.

Or give all heavy infantry units size medium? It makes just as much sence as warriors having size medium.

warriors are still great in T3, since you should have multiple levels, as well as multiple monstrous creatures coming out to the field.
if you have a swarmlord or carnifex on the field, your opponent is probably going to be focusing all their AV on that, not on your warriors

[Dark Riku]

This is actually still going on? Haven't you noticed by now you're the only one with these Tyranid problems Hive? Also, stop using that cover "argument". There isn't always cover around let alone green cover, nor can a squad afford to camp in cover nor can it just stand there while melee runs in, artillery shoots at it, etc.
All the rest of the arguments are just going in circles ~~ Just do some 1v1's versus me or look at some decent 1v1 games.

[HiveSpirit]

I will

[saltychipmunk]

I will have to argue the fact that nids not having any vehicle armor options until t3 is not a race strength since it allows other races to simply focus on anti heavy infantry (to pop warriors) while still being perfectly viable at eating through that admittedly high hp pool of the tyrant guard.

I was always under the impression that a perk to vehicles was that it forced the opponent to diversify their army with a unit that is normally not very effective in combat vs non vehicles.

losing that option makes things way easier when choosing how to handle nids and having av units that happen to also work against warriors doesn't help much either.

I dont think it has ever been a particularly efficient idea to buy a missle launcher vs a tg. just get the obligatory melee heavy upgrade on one of your units and then get as much power melee/ inferno/ plasma as you can. profit.