Lord Commisar Wargear is MAAAAD!!

[egewithin]

I am not looking for any kind of changes, and I mean any. I wanted to say it. I just figured out today. Each of his wargear, everything he has crazy by it self.

Refractor Field : He starts with an energy shield? Ohohohoo... You pay money for that here body! I don't care if it is weak, crazy benefit.

Inspire Courage : He can buff his man by 100% even from the beggining of the game, and so on. You may say its only a Guardsmen early on but it really pays off... You give double damage on demand without buying wargear for it, dam it!

Powaa Sword : Basicially makes him a Force Commander without power armor.

Fist : Extreamly large area immortility with a bloody long duration, like a whole fight in mid! Bring it on! Who else can be as awsome as this?

Carapice : Tanky, regenative, Inspire Courage spam! And can charge without being suppresed after courage ability. I mean, buff your unit, go tie up set up team, how amazing this is, can you imagine?

Flak Jacket : You can execute enemy units from head with this? Ohohohow! And can one shot mostly 50% of every xeno army infantry.

Boinic Eye : Damage buff, gives heal, suppression immunity and even a speed buff! Catachans FTW! Evey time I use this with Cats, they call it OP, but I don't.

Aura of Disipline : Crazy, crazy heal for Orgryns or Catcs if you roam together. Even humiez can deal with boyz in melee now!

Stubborness : Basicially makes Commisar unkillible. The more man you have, the more you hurt and the more you heal. Buuut, you do 75% more damage if you have 3 guardsmen with all leader upgrades and heal 10% for every 3 seconds?!! Wooooooowww!!!

Emperors Wrath : Manticore on demand. Am I even have to say something?

I know I am going to loose the first fight with him after I post this, but who cares but me?

[Adeptus Noobus]

From what perspective are you judging the first engagement?

[Atlas]

I'm just waiting for when he checks out the Farseer wargears.

[HansMoleman]

Timefield + Reaping Runes = more OP than all those wargears combined!.

[saltychipmunk]

Well , most of those perks have a few small caveats

for example, the inspire courage not only kills a unit in the squad (so technically it is NOT ever a 100% damage boost)
but it makes said squad unable to retreat which can easily get them killed if one is not careful.

the base energy field makes up for the fact that he is technically an offensive commander (despite his supposed title as support) with a very low base hp pool .

most commanders that act like him have 200 - 350 more base hp.

as for his power swords. most t1 commander wargear have very similar stats and many do 50 power melee dps and come with or augment a current ability .. all in all it is very much in line with everything else.

aura discipline makes the commissar a walking target which does not mesh particularly well with the fact that he has that low base hp (even with a chest armor wargear).


you could look at the commissar as an extremely high risk reward character. Most if not all of his gear will improve one thing to an absurd level at the cost of something equally absurd.

[Dark Riku]

It's not a 100% damage boost calculated from a full member squad ~~ That's really an argument?
The refractor field also gives him the perk of regular kb immunity.
Non of the other "similar" power weapons give an AoE buff and special attacks (like the FC's ones) and a + 2 speed boost!
When buying aura of discipline you're also not supposed to walk your LC at the front, but rather behind your lines.

you could look at the commissar as an extremely high risk reward character. Most if not all of his gear will improve one thing to an absurd level at the cost of something equally absurd.

What? °_O What does he give up when he uses the power sword ability? What does he give up when using any of the abilities? °_O

[Crewfinity]

as for his power swords. most t1 commander wargear have very similar stats and many do 50 power melee dps and come with or augment a current ability .. all in all it is very much in line with everything else.

his power sword is pretty much the best one of all the commander power sword variants. +2 speed for 10 req more compared to the FC power sword, and you get access to the battlecry ability. much better dps than the bro cap's sword.


if we're talking about heroes with ridiculous wargears i'm going to throw the Lictor Alpha into the mix.

AOE debuff and on field reinforcement in T1 for 115/20?
self heal and high power melee dps on an infiltrating hero with high attack speed?
make any enemy squad retreat on demand?
all his wargears are insane.

[Oddnerd]

The power sword may be the best T1 commander weapon upgrade in the game. He gains extra base damage, power weapon damage, and the ability to always perform a special attack. This means he is substantially more effective against commanders, heavy infantry, and numerous light infantry all at once. I used to pass it over in favour of the orky powerfist, what a waste.

[Tex]

powersword is by far his best wargear.

That's because it's OP in a vacuum. It hasn't been nerfed because the commissar is still one of the hardest heros in the game to play.

[Interdiction]

Commissar is still one of the hardest heroes in the game to play.

But one of the funnest. Sadly, due to lg's awesome support abilities and the Inq's crazy cc options he gets overlooked by some players it seems.

[saltychipmunk]

It's not a 100% damage boost calculated from a full member squad ~~ That's really an argument?
The refractor field also gives him the perk of regular kb immunity.
Non of the other "similar" power weapons give an AoE buff and special attacks (like the FC's ones) and a + 2 speed boost!
When buying aura of discipline you're also not supposed to walk your LC at the front, but rather behind your lines.

you could look at the commissar as an extremely high risk reward character. Most if not all of his gear will improve one thing to an absurd level at the cost of something equally absurd.

What? °_O What does he give up when he uses the power sword ability? What does he give up when using any of the abilities? °_O

Well it is something to consider when choosing which units to "inspire" as it can mean you are killing off a more expensive unit for less of a bonus. like in an extreme case , killing off an ogryn for what is really a 75% boost in squad damage or even less if no bonehead is present.

The refactor field also has the lowest energy to damage conversion rate in the game if i recall. something like 2.5 vs the normal 5 per damage point. obviously this means it eats energy twice as fast.

And sure there are a selection of wargears that are just normal wargears with no real drawbacks. Such as:

the carapace armor
the power sword (while it gets a ton of abilities it is still no better than any of those other 50 power melee weapons)
the power claw
And Emperors wrath.

The rest however do have pretty unique trade offs.
For example inspire courage is an inherently dangerous ability. aside from killing a unit and costing requisition(and power sometimes) it can open a unit to being squad wiped through the loss of retreat for 10 seconds. this is particularly notable if an inspired ranged squad with no melee prows gets over taken in melee.

That is an inherent risk that all the war-gears which deal with inspire courage have especially the bionic eye which on top of that risk quite pointedly lacks increased durability , so you could end up with a 700 hp commissar lord in t3.

ithe flak jacket only provides a modest hp buff but it atleast turns the ability into an offensive one.

Aura displine loses potency the larger your army is but on top of that by forcing your commissar lord to hang back so that he can heal your troops you lose the option to have him charge in and tie something up in melee. which is a shame since he is a melee dominant commander.

stubbornness is the exact opposite in that it is next to useless when the commissar is alone.

When you put those two wargears in their element they excel ( the high reward) but if you don't put them in that element then they lose a ton of potency and means you risk wasting that upgrade.

Finally there is the fist of Brockus which paints a massive target on the LC and forces him to be in the center of his army in order for the ability to work well.


As for the power sword , yes it gives him a ton of perks but none of those perks are the best in the game , he just gets a bunch.

sure he gets to move faster, but he loses potency at chasing because of the 100% melee specials means all a squad need do to avoid his melee is move backwards.

sure he gets 100% melee specials .. so does the force commander, but the force commander also has better base stats to work with and can elect to use that battle cry with other melee weapons with different strengths later in the game.


it is a fantastic wargear don't get me wrong , but it is not worlds better than everything else

and yeah he gets power melee but again 50 power melee is pretty standard.

[Tex]

It is worlds better because you get +2 speed for 10 req.

That's a huge fricken deal. Being able to quite handily outflank and counter setup teams with a 20 power upgrade is a huge fricken deal. Same reason why angry bitz is flat out the best thing since sliced bread. So many perks bundled into a 20 power package.

[Dark Riku]

All your "trade-offs" are only in affect if you are "slow". "Let's buy Stubbornness and then make the LC run alone, hurdhur."
The only trade-off is on Execute, but that's a standard ability!

The refactor field also has the lowest energy to damage conversion rate in the game if i recall. something like 2.5 vs the normal 5 per damage point. obviously this means it eats energy twice as fast.

That still doesn't mean that the refractor field can't be used to counter kb...

it is a fantastic wargear don't get me wrong , but it is not worlds better than everything else

Kappa.

[Oddnerd]

The refractor field should not be as good as other commanders energy shields, they pay good money for those. This guy gets one for free. Its not even his defining ability (that would be inspire courage) - this is literally just a free energy shield.

[saltychipmunk]

It is worlds better because you get +2 speed for 10 req.

That's a huge fricken deal. Being able to quite handily outflank and counter setup teams with a 20 power upgrade is a huge fricken deal. Same reason why angry bitz is flat out the best thing since sliced bread. So many perks bundled into a 20 power package.

that is only true if you use maximize their benefits and minimize their downsides , in both cases there are in fact downsides.

angry bits when activated forces the war-boss into a predictably straight line that can be exploited , nids love exploiting it. but if all you care about is getting from a to b fast then that downside obviously doesn't matter.

same with the power sword speed bonus, its downside is that it is tied to the 100% melee specials which inherently makes your commissar ineffective at meleeing kiting units , but again if all you want to do is go from a to b super fast to cause a little havoc then that little draw back clearly doesn't matter.

depending on what you want to do those two mechanics can be complimentary or conflicting.
but it is not like it makes your entire army move 1.5 faster while taking 25% less damage , nor does it ignore melee resistance while making zombies.

and realistically speaking it is probably used just as much as the holy brazier .
Finally we cant forget that it is still an upgrade on a 600ish hp commander , most other commanders are in a much better spot in terms of durability , refactor field or no refactor field.
That is why i say it is an excellent wargear , better than most in fact. but it is not so far out there that it renders everything else irrelevant.

[Dark Riku]

that is only true if you use maximize their benefits and minimize their downsides , in both cases there are in fact downsides.

That would be good if there actually were downsides ...
It's the same as saying: unkillable models are a downside because they can get flesh hooked by a LA.
It's true, but in general the unkillable leader is a big advantage!

angry bits when activated forces the war-boss into a predictably straight line that can be exploited , nids love exploiting it. but if all you care about is getting from a to b fast then that downside obviously doesn't matter.

in what universe is this a downside? °_O

[saltychipmunk]

in what universe is this a downside? °_O

The one where you can setup traps for units that move in a predictably straight lines? It is kind of half the reason why i get things like lootas.
Admittedly the major downside of angry bits (not being able to retreat) was removed with nothing to fill the void so ofc it is going to be doing extremely well these days...



But it is exactly like unkillables being fleshhooked. It is a downside in a specific way but ultimately it is up to the player to mitigate it or exploit it . Just because it is a downside that rarely shows it self .. doesn't mean it isnt a downside.... you just mitigate it and move on .

I have absolutely screwed people over with unkillable models. I have screwed over warbosses that charged in and over commit. And i have screwed commissars over that think they can charge my setup team only to be dps down by something else since their hp pool is low and their energy shield is depleted by using the other abilities.

Rare as they are .. they are exploitable downsides

[Dark Riku]

The one where you can setup traps for units that move in a predictably straight lines?

Good luck with doing anything like that in an actual game. I salute you if you can.

With your kind of logic everything is bad. Overcommitting is not the same thing as getting a negative outcome because of so-called "downsides".

"Unkillable leaders are a downside." - saltychipmunk. Here is one to add to your signature Forest.

[Nurland]

Well... Looks like it is time for us to remember to stay calm and constructive. You know what happens if you don't. Mmmkay?

[saltychipmunk]

The one where you can setup traps for units that move in a predictably straight lines?

Good luck with doing anything like that in an actual game. I salute you if you can.

With your kind of logic everything is bad. Overcommitting is not the same thing as getting a negative outcome because of so-called "downsides".

"Unkillable leaders are a downside." - saltychipmunk. Here is one to add to your signature Forest.

It not any more unreasonable than spiking the landing spot of a wse group teleport or a blood letter teleport. just because it is rare doesnt at all mean it is not a downside.


And just because I say it is a downside doesnt not mean that the net effect a negative
Think of it this way the trade off for these perks is that you need to use them in certain ways.

For example with the now i am angry charge. you get +4 speed right? but you only get it if you run in a straight line. If you were to say Hey +4 speed is bloody ridiculous on a commander like the wb .. you would be correct. but it is tempered by the downside that he must move in that restricted fashion. Still the end result is a net positive but it is not nearly as over the top as say 10 seconds of simply having +4 speed with no other strings would be.

I am sure you can appreciate how much more you could do if you could control where the warboss went with that +4 speed boost.

the same with the power sword. inspire ? great speed? fantastic! melee specials? glorious . But you have to remember that the melee specials are good vs units that activity engage you in melee which implies that the +2 speed is wasted once he is in melee. in contrast If he just got the speed he would have access to that 65 power melee damage on kiting units in addition to the 17 ish dps he gets on his pistol. however since he gets the melee specials he will miss most of the time against units that actively run away since melee specials have a longer animation and root the user to the ground for the duration.

Both are a net positive but because they slightly imped eachother in key ways it is not nearly as potent as just saying +2 speed or 100% melee specials on a cheaper piece of wargear.

another would be the new farseer and her gravity blade / energy armor which has a ridiculous ability tempered by the fact that she has to channel it .. leaving her vulnerable.

again high potency, that is tempered by novel drawbacks.

So in the end i am saying that the commissar has a bunch of these kind of quirks these .... big boost in power with strings attached.

This is way different than simply pressing a button and going invulnerable for 8 seconds. that has no real caveats . you just press a button and full power for the 8 seconds.

[Dark Riku]

It not any more unreasonable than spiking the landing spot of a wse group teleport or a blood letter teleport. just because it is rare doesnt at all mean it is not a downside.

Just because it's possible versus Warbosses making questionable charges doesn't mean you can use it as an argument.

And just because I say it is a downside doesnt not mean that the net effect a negative

You were using other terms than downside at the beginning of this thread for the same subjects and I'm still taking those in regard.

Think of it this way the trade off for these perks is that you need to use them in certain ways.

That's not a trade-off, you get the wargears you want to use ... Nobody is forcing you to get upgrades, if you get said upgrade that means you want to use it in the beneficial way.

For example with the now i am angry charge. you get +4 speed right? but you only get it if you run in a straight line. If you were to say Hey +4 speed is bloody ridiculous on a commander like the wb .. you would be correct. but it is tempered by the downside that he must move in that restricted fashion. Still the end result is a net positive but it is not nearly as over the top as say 10 seconds of simply having +4 speed with no other strings would be.

You realise he can use it on the spot, right?

the same with the power sword. inspire ? great speed? fantastic! melee specials? glorious . But you have to remember that the melee specials are good vs units that activity engage you in melee which implies that the +2 speed is wasted once he is in melee. in contrast If he just got the speed he would have access to that 65 power melee damage on kiting units in addition to the 17 ish dps he gets on his pistol. however since he gets the melee specials he will miss most of the time against units that actively run away since melee specials have a longer animation and root the user to the ground for the duration.

That would be a good argument and all if it held true for the LC. His attack animation is very fast, it doesn't matter if you are moving or not most of the time.
Also, combining abilities and units is a thing in this game.

[Crewfinity]

also it doesnt even matter if his special attacks miss because 1) that means you're controlling those units kiting him
and 2) because even if he misses the special attacks the AOE damage buff still procs, still giving you a big benefit

[saltychipmunk]

You realise he can use it on the spot, right?

the +4 speed buff is only for the charge.
you are referring to the secondary effect after that..... which is not +4 speed

sure you can technically charge 2 inches and use the 8 seconds of other buffs he gets but then to do that you kind of waste the 4 speed + disruption.

That's not a trade-off, you get the wargears you want to use ... Nobody is forcing you to get upgrades, if you get said upgrade that means you want to use it in the beneficial way.

and the point of this is? I am trying to say that these restrictions prevent using said war-gears from being used in a way that makes them blatantly op. So basically you buy the upgrade and accept its restrictions. that doesn’t magically make the restrictions vanish. nor does it discredit my point. avoids it actually.

The whole reason why this started is because people pointed to the stats and said "oh look its got this and this and this and this and on paper all these things are way more than this other thing which only has this and maybe this so it is so much better".


I was simply pointing out that because they cant all be used together 100% (because for one thing to work well another aspect has to be utilized less or sacrificed) it is fine to have all those things together.

just like it is fine to get a 100% damage bonus by shooting someone in the head or being able to suppress and do dot on command at the cost of needing channel.

But if you dont think that way, then fine lets make this clearly way over performing power sword 40 power. seems like it is worth it.


@ crew , 1 that is technically true for any unit that forces another unit into kiting. the difference here is that those other units can also hit the units being controlled. 2) is less true the farther away said kiting unit gets from the rest of the ig army ...the ig army is not exactly populated by fast moving aggressive units that work well in charges .. kind of the opposite actually.

[Dark Riku]

the +4 speed buff is only for the charge.
you are referring to the secondary effect after that..... which is not +4 speed

No shit Sherlock.

sure you can technically charge 2 inches and use the 8 seconds of other buffs he gets but then to do that you kind of waste the 4 speed + disruption.

Unless you are already engaged, then you disrupt...

and the point of this is? I am trying to say that these restrictions prevent using said war-gears from being used in a way that makes them blatantly op. So basically you buy the upgrade and accept its restrictions. that doesn’t magically make the restrictions vanish. nor does it discredit my point. avoids it actually.

The point is that you don't make any sense and are blatantly wrong. There are no "downsides" for using the LC powersword. There are no penalties for buying any of his wargear.

[But if you dont think that way, then fine lets make this clearly way over performing power sword 40 power. seems like it is worth it.

Exaggerating, lovely.

[Interdiction]

I was thinking, would it be possible to give LC a bolt pistol? I was thinking it might be a little caveat for getting the claw. It would give him maybe a decent dps boost, maybe 25 piercing with the same rate of fire as the laspistol? It seems to me it would help it compete with the sword a little more. I'm by no means an expert though so I'd love the pros' thoughts on this.

[Atlas]

I'm kind of a fan of a laspistol being the best pistol in the game ;P