Dawn of War Codex

Hi all, I wanted to see what your thoughts are on the LC and his bionic eye. I don't see a whole lot of IG players, even fewer who pick the underdog LC. However, whenever I encounter another LC player I keep an eye on his build, and I can't recall a single instance of someone choosing the bionic eye (maybe it's more common at higher levels of gameplay beyond my own).

Do you guys think it is under-appreciated or just not offering enough? The extra energy means a longer lasting refractor shield, and Inspire Determination is a great improvement on Inspire courage, but it feels like too little to late to me come T2. If I had the option to upgrade in T1 I would definitely take it, because breaking suppression would be useful for dealing with early game turret/setup team play.

I personally love the Bionic Eye when going for an execute-heavy Commissar build. It comes down to how aggressive you want to be and how much bleed you're willing to take. Using it on Guardsmen isn't all that much better than the basic execute, but dropping it on Catachans or Ogryns is incredible. The speed buff + suppression immunity + the damage boost and (as a minor addition) the healing makes it an awesome line-breaker. In team games, it can get overshadowed by more reserved play focusing on buffing troops through Aura and Power Sword/FoB, but it's still a really solid tool to have. Ogryns chasing down tanks like nobody's business is awesome.

Having it in T1 would be pretty OP in my opinion. Catachans with Inspire Determination can wipe power-armor units in the blink of an eye (and even threaten Terminators when buffed by Loyal to the End) so giving them a way of charging a setup team and bashing it down without much room for counterplay, or just wreck Assault Marines/Raptors/Storm Boyz in counter-initiation, would be a bit much.

I see it as under-appreciated, but really really powerful in the right hands. I've watched a lot of high-level Commissars use it to great effect, and have had numerous times where it has pretty much won me the game when my super-buffed melee units storm through the opposition.

I prefer it in 1v1 or 2v2 matchs. In a 3v3 I 90% go for Stubborness and Carapice to keep LC alive. In a 1v1, it changes too many things. Ability basicially makes the unit OP for a short period of time, but has nothing more to offer apart from + 50 energy but who cares? If you gonna make LC tanky, go for another build. It will even keep you away from one of the best support abilitys in the whole game, might be just loosing to None Shall Fall, so +50 energy is not too much. I prefer regenaration. What can I do a 8000 energy pool if I can't fill it? I would still go for it without the energy boost.

Another reason why it shows up rarely is, in big team games, the buffed unit you are using can be focus fired into nothing. Nobody would risk it.

Kvn wrote:Having it in T1 would be pretty OP in my opinion. Catachans with Inspire Determination can wipe power-armor units in the blink of an eye (and even threaten Terminators when buffed by Loyal to the End) so giving them a way of charging a setup team and bashing it down without much room for counterplay, or just wreck Assault Marines/Raptors/Storm Boyz in counter-initiation, would be a bit much.

I totally agree on that.

I'll admit I'm not an LC main, though I've been playing a lot of IG lately. The Eye looks overpriced and overly niche to me. 150/35 is a pricey wargear, so it better give a lot! So in what ways does it buff up the default execute?

Default - Execute a guy for a 15s buff:
Break retreat, suppression and grant suppression immunity
+100% damage

Bionic Eye adds (+50 energy):
Full heal
+3.5 speed

These buffs are nice, but they sure seem expensive and don't come till T2. What little LC I have played often finds me picking up Carapace in T1. For 50/10 less, it gives a lot of sustain in the early game and let's you easily execute twice in a fight for the cost of 2 "normal" executes. This combos really well in T2 with any reinforcement you get going. I can totally see Ogryns gaining amazing chase down with Eye, and maybe following them in with my chimera to reinforce. Or pop it on them after they've sustained a ton of damage for a surprise full-ish (-1 model) heal. Catas don't sound like they'd work as well? It's very rare I am putting Catas in a position to tank damage so the heal seems iffy, and speed bonus isn't as synergistic considering their lack of charge or melee specials. And all of this I have to compare against Carapace again, which will let me hand out 200% damage split between two squads, for cheaper and with better T1 pressure stats.

I also feel that by having the Eye, I will be "wasting" it's potential whenever I execute a squad that isn't getting much from the benefits. I often am executing GM or HWT to pour the damage in (or be tricky with a retreat break). The heal is largely wasted on these squads, and the bonus speed seems minor (a GM running around does low damage, or none if backpedaling, and HWT I usually wanan execute once setup to gain the most advantage from the bonus damage). Which leaves me with spending 150/35 for +50 energy!

That all said, I will try to experiment with it as I transition from Inq to other IG commanders. My instinct is that it's best comboed with the Ogryns, but ultimately overpriced and overly niche. Only way to know for sure is to try!

EDIT: Apparently the codex is a little confused, and execute does not grant suppresion, though Eye does. This changes some things, but I'm not gonna rewrite anything yet

Ehh, the largest thing keeping it from being used often is the lack of a boost in hitpoints (well unless you count the extra energy for use in the refactor field ).

Its not like the LC has a ranged weapon that he can use while hiding behind cover. he has a melee a melee .. another melee and a shiner melee. and that t1 chest armor works extremely well for a more aggressive melee LC

so it stands to reason if you dont want to invest much into the LC as an actual fighter the bionic eye is a pretty large step up from a standard blah execute.

That... doesn't seem to happen often.. seeing as that one war-gear combination makes him a better line breaker / melee unit than most of the ig line up.

Cyris wrote:Catas don't sound like they'd work as well?

Don't write off the Catachan synergy just yet.

The 3,5 Speed boost is huge; for reference, Fleet of Foot adds 3. That means Determination Catas are running as fast as non-Exarch FoF Banshees, at 8,5! Banshees become 0,5 faster with their Exarch (plus their amazing 50% ranged resistance), but consider the threat output of a squad of Catachans running at speed 8,5, completely suppression immune, dealing double damage (40dps power melee per model), armed with two disruption abilities that they can use while running in, and they can use them back-to-back from level 1. When they get to level 2, they can almost immediately throw in a bonus smoke grenade (that no one seems to remember to use) for shits and giggles.

They also get a little bonus melta gun on their sarge (only 50% FOTM but hey, transports are running scared from the power melee), crazy good health increases with levels (the base models get tougher than the sarge at level 4?! That's what the Codex says, but it seems too silly to be right), and though at this point the full heal is just icing on the cake (as it generally is) the fact that you can use what is basically a beast-mode button after they've already taken some damage can, as you might imagine, be a pretty nasty surprise.

I guess what I'm saying is that, compared to 'real' melee specialist units like Banshees and Sluggaz, what Catas really really lack is speed: no melee charge, speed 5. They get a bunch of other cool stuff to make up for it...and then at the cost of a model you get to remove their major disadvantage for 15 seconds and give them a couple of other big buffs on top of it.

Plus, when the Catas suddenly start channeling the spirit of Rambo in the middle of an engagement, chances are whatever control methods the enemy has around are going to be scrambling to stop them, so the LC himself can run around and be useful much more freely.

It's obviously still coupled with the inherent risk of all execute buff plays, but all of these factors combined can make it a much more consistent and powerful combo than most people realize. If nothing else, it can force some very quick engagement wins and/or the threat of it can force a very heavy response to just LC + Catas running around.

TL;DR Inspire Determination Catas are scary stuff, there's a reason Bionic Eye doesn't give any 'real' health like other armour pieces.

Honestly executing cata for whatever reason and then using their un' reliable is a big plus that a lot of damage. If you have a Chimera nearby. Put Inspire Courage on guardsmen, Loyal to the End and have Aura of discipline. The amount those Guardsmen can do is very very impressive. Since at the start of the buff they get a 120% damage increase and suppression immunity plus a full heal with the execute. Then more heals from LC. And the Guardsmen are also reinforcing and if they are focused down, they easily get up to +200% more damage. Throw both on an AutoCannon and laugh as you watch thing get shredded. That soft av platform turned into hard AV platform. And honestly that why i love carapace as well. If you position it and can protect it right. Two Autocannons that can quickly get buffed by 100% from execute. Just make sure you have a chimera, cata, 2 guardsmen and a sent, that's what i found to be necessary for that.

I understand why the Eye with its speed boost and heal would be super OP in T1, but what if they made an alternate T1 version of it? I am not actually suggesting they do it, but for curiosity's sake - do other LC players wish they could use their inspire courage to break/prevent suppression on a unit in T1? Basically, would you want a version of the carapace armour that grants the suppression immunity to the target instead of the LC ? I know I can get it T2 and get the added benefits of speed and healing, but the main time when I really want the suppression immunity for my target is in T1 when the T1.5 units start to show up.

I don't think the bionic eye is nearly niche as some would make it. I think it is once again an issue of playstyle and frequency of play. That is to say, not many people play the LC in 1v1 (probably for good reason, he's very unforgiving), and I would argue that not many people have taken their play to a point of where they have pushed the meta or have developed unique and flavored builds to suit most, if not all of the situations you will run into as a LC.

When I mained the LC, I would say that I came close to being proficient in this manner, but not quite. In my mind, I have uses and scenarios for all of the LC's wargear except for "emperors wrath", which is a 100% luxury. Most t3 wargear is luxury anyway...

For specific reference to this thread, here are the situations that I use bionic eye in:
(Also I want to say that I do agree with cyris that the wargear feels a bit pricey)

1) Countering the counter.
AOE is your worst enemy as IG. Bionic eye can completely nullify this, especially for an important squad like catachans who do a good job of keeping melee off you and setup teams on their asses. The full heal is wonderful. The speed boost means your are out of the aoe almost instantly.
Another great example is the LC vs CL matchup. You know, the exact timing where you have a HWT upgraded with either weapon, and its ready to shoot down the bloodcrusher, except that the CL just used LTGB. Well thankfully you purchased the HWT shield, and now all you need to do is wait a few seconds and then execute a member. Your HWT will have full health and will be doing double damage.

2) Countering the counter part 2
Suppression is super annoying for IG. Especially so for the LC. 1 squad of fully upgraded plasma guardsmen under the effect of inspire determination will absolutely shred any other ranged squad save for probably terminators.
Against an out of cover suppression team, you can just walk into range and outshoot it in seconds.
Against an in cover suppression team you can easily charge out of its firing arc and then choose to shoot it or melee it.

3) Theme of suppression
Your opponent has shown his/her tendancy towards using suppression as a part of his/her combos. Buying this wargear as soon as T2 hits might seem like a huge risk, but I aliken it to when I played Hive Tyrant many moons ago. The first thing I got in T2, every game, was a ripper drop. Being able to instantly scale every unit in your roster allows for a seamless transition into T3. The wartrukk works in almost the exact same way.
In this case, your plasma GM can even threaten transports when under the effect of inspire determination.

4) Ability to counter light vehicles with 1 squad
Bionic eye allows you to not overspend when it comes to countering light vehicles. A wartrukk or a razorback can cause serious problems, yet they can be countered by augmenting an AV squad with the eye. In this case, I am speaking of melta storm troopers. Assuming you have purchased them as your counter, you wouldn't want to spend on other AV focused upgrades because you would be making your opponents small investment pay for itself far too well. The bionic eye augments your entire infantry army and isn't relegated to comboing with AV. Thus its a great all around purchase that allows you to hunt vehicles with 1 squad.
I used this strategy specifically against Orks and SM players. I was quite annoyed by razorbacks, wartrukks, whirlwinds, and to some extent, deffdreads. The speed bonus is absolutely savage in this scenario.

5) The niche chase down
If I had the resources for it, then I would use this for the chase kill opportunities it provided with ogryns. AFAIK, the speed bonus stacks with the ogryn charge, so you end up with ultra fast heavy melee units. Everyone knows this, but I think people use it in entirely the wrong situations. This is more of an end of fight combo, and much more of a game ending ability rather than a mid-battle staple.
In all honesty, the much cheaper T1 wargear "aura of discipline" is about 10 times more effective in supporting ogryns than the bionic eye could ever hope to be.

I gave this a go in a 3v3 and it performed extremely well with ogryns. I got easy wipes on razorback, weirdboy and sluggas due to their absurd speed and laughed at supression teams that were bought to keep my ogryns at bay.

Toilailee wrote:I gave this a go in a 3v3 and it performed extremely well with ogryns. I got easy wipes on razorback, weirdboy and sluggas due to their absurd speed and laughed at supression teams that were bought to keep my ogryns at bay.

I also tried it with catachans and damn are they scary. Catachans vs other races low tier melee units are fairly even without assistance, so when a fight is coming close to an end and both units are battered and nearly dead, a sudden full heal and double damage means your guys can melt the enemy like butter before your opponent can react. A double damage Ol'unreliable also makes short work of low HP retreating units who escape your grasp.

I'll have to work ogryns back into my build. I have never seen them in action with both their active ability and Inspire determination. I bet they eat those pesky zoanthropes for breakfast.

Oddnerd wrote:I'll have to work ogryns back into my build. I have never seen them in action with both their active ability and Inspire determination. I bet they eat those pesky zoanthropes for breakfast.

Well, Ogryns can eat half of nids for breakfast already so you should think about eating a Carnifex for a dinner.

I did that thing before. I used on the Bone 'Ead leader and repurchased it so if any model dies, they can have a small reinforce with a pretty impractical way. But the speed buff, the damage, the health is just MAD!

Using it on storm troopers is one of my favourite plans. just get melta or hotshot kill one guy then cloak (with the speed bonuses) and you can kill alot of light to medium armour and most infantry. im not sure if the melta bomb and the frag are also affected but the damage does seem better. the are almost as good as the operative squad (Gray knight balance)