Brightlance upgrade for Shuriken Platform

[Lulgrim]

4) ***This is the most important eldar change in elite that has altered this matchup*** Shurikan platform can now upgrade to brightlance.
-This change right here has completely ruined the use of bloodcrushers against eldar. It has also made it incredibly hard to "exact t2 revenge" against the powerful eldar t1 the way I used to with chaos. There used to be a window of time where you could push back at an eldar with vehicles and even out the game. This window has been seamlessly shut with the brightlance upgrade.

This was my original concern when the lance was combined with SCP. We did it in part just because of running out of UI space for T2 and not wanting to drop the lance plat altogether. Especially multiple SCPs are more desirable than HBs and they were made that way because of no AV upgrade, but now there is no need to balance their early power vs. lack of scaling. oOoOoOoOoOo SWAT TEAM 9374627458 oOoOoOoOoO would be happy.

[Raffa]

Especially multiple SCPs are more desirable than HBs and they were made that way because of no AV upgrade, but now there is no need to balance their early power vs. lack of scaling.

So let's take a look at Eldar's t2 av options, heroes aside:

1. Fire Dragons, which I would call pretty dedicated av especially in pairs. Medium/Hard av.
2. Warp Spiders, with pretty incredible disabling grenades. Soft av
3. Wraithlord Brightlance. Do I even have to go into this one? Hard av.
4. Falcon. Transport that can tickle vehicles. Light av.
5. Dark Reapers. All that plasma damage constitutes some kind of av. Soft av.
6. Brightlance platform. Hard av.
7. Banshee Exarch, with the right aspect. Soft av.
8. Wraithguard, if you can hit they wreck vehicles. Medium av.

...so yeah do Eldar really need shuri to be able to upgrade to brightlance? Their av is already very strong, leaving aside wse teleporting heavy melee and the farseer spear. Especially since shuri platform is the best suppression team anyway.

Raptors are not in a good spot

And have not been for a while...

[Nuclear Arbitor]

1. Fire Dragons, which I would call pretty dedicated av especially in pairs. Medium/Hard av.

against walkers they're good; against anything else they're bad because they get kited. pairs counter walkers very hard.

2. Warp Spiders, with pretty incredible disabling grenades. Soft av
3. Wraithlord Brightlance. Do I even have to go into this one? Hard av.
4. Falcon. Transport that can tickle vehicles. Light av.
5. Dark Reapers. All that plasma damage constitutes some kind of av. Soft av.
6. Brightlance platform. Hard av.
7. Banshee Exarch, with the right aspect. Soft av.
8. Wraithguard, if you can hit they wreck vehicles. Medium av.
9. Fireprism. hard av
10. Dcannon. good deterant but slow to fire and don't always hit. medium av.
11. Avatar. mostly works as a deterrent but hits hard. medium av.
12. Seer Council. lots of power melee. soft av.

...so yeah do Eldar really need shuri to be able to upgrade to brightlance? Their av is already very strong, leaving aside wse teleporting heavy melee and the farseer spear. Especially since shuri platform is the best suppression team anyway.

at this point, yes eldar need the bright lance because the brightlance platform, wraithlord bright lance, and fire prism eldar don't have any good long ranged av. to exacerbate things the wraithlord bright lance is 140(i think?) power and the fire prism is in t3.

long ranged av is necessary in order to deal with fast ranged vehicles, particularly transports but also tanks. nids are in the unique, and unenviable position, of lacking long ranged av; everyone else has it in t2 in some form or the other, with snare or without.

[Ace of Swords]

Am I the only one who thinks it's better as an upgrade? sure it comes out sightly faster but atleast they have to sacrifice a supression platform which becomes extremely useful later in the game either to keep a priority target to tie up or just to babysit a VP in late game, vs retail eldar it was kind of stupid when there were too many setup teams like 2 shuris and 1 or 2 BLs it was basically impossible to tie them all up.

[MyMe]

Am I the only one who thinks it's better as an upgrade? sure it comes out sightly faster but atleast they have to sacrifice a supression platform which becomes extremely useful later in the game either to keep a priority target to tie up or just to babysit a VP in late game, vs retail eldar it was kind of stupid when there were too many setup teams like 2 shuris and 1 or 2 BLs it was basically impossible to tie them all up.

I think it's better as an upgrade personally. Pretty much every other race can buy a suppression team that upgrades into AV the instant they hit t2 (cept nids), so I don't see an issue with eldar having that option. The only argue I can see against that would be the effectiveness of the shuri and how you are almost guaranteed to see it each game, so it's often time more available than other set up teams. However, I still don't think that's enough to justify splitting shuri/brightlance into 2 units again.

[Raffa]

Pretty much every other race can buy a suppression team that upgrades into AV the instant they hit t2 (cept nids), so I don't see an issue with eldar having that option.

I do. Because Eldar T2 is like a junior version of retail Chaos T2 - every T2 unit is AV to some degree and giving Eldar a cheap, in-field, hard AV option for no extra upkeep is too much.

[Torpid]

The extra upkeep or lack thereof manifests itself in them losing a squad. Namely a suppression team...

[FiSH]

I do. Because Eldar T2 is like a junior version of retail Chaos T2 - every T2 unit is AV to some degree and giving Eldar a cheap, in-field, hard AV option for no extra upkeep is too much.

there are only 3 "hard" av if you consider the DPS - BL & fire dragons & wraithlord. none of these snare, so if opponent is microing properly, eldar will have difficult time killing vehicles with only these guys.

retail chaos had multiple hard hitting AV options, and those units could take out vehicles single handedly. hell, pop bloodlust and letters just kill kdread? now that actually was not fair.

EDIT: i believe D-cannon always hits vehicles.

[Raffa]

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[2]"

Dow community is prime example of Dunning-Kruger effect...Again, people who know the least have the most to say. "I know nothing about this race, got no experience playing them, so let me tell You how to balance it"

That was awhile back. Manisz is right, like, completely. I'm trying to break the mould, but am failing epically

This happens in every thread, every fucking thread. You are never going to understand the points made by Tex as you haven't experienced it yourself, and even if you had you haven't played at the level to understand why this poses such a problem.

Why do I bother trying to explain a concept like Eldar av? You guys write back with things that just aren't true and cannot see how ridiculous it looks because of your inexperience. It's like trying to teach quantum physics to a three year-old.



One person who knows what they're talking about is more value than any number who don't. You can agree with each other stand together w/e it doesn't make you right or mean you understand anything.

C'est tout

[saltychipmunk]

If i am permitted to state my opinion on this matter. While it is true that eldar technically have multiple anti vehicle options in t2 , it can be argued that not one of them is economically viable.

Lets examine the other races, chaos get plagues which is mobile , has a snare and is very durable. it is an ideal unit not only for its av rolls but for its tanking roll. In a sense it does its av job and then does other things making it a very flexible investment.
you can easily deter vehicles with just that one unit.

the same can be said for tacs with a rocket , tank bustas and even venom broods. they are all mobile which alone wont get you far, but they have a secondary attribute , spike damage, all of them can fire a volly and run away or at a vehicle.

even ig has storm troopers which are an all in one av unit complete with both the snare and the killing power.


but then with eldar a peculiar thing happens. None of their av can really finish the job in a reasonable investment.

banshees will get obliterated by kiting light tanks and out melee by walkers.
bright lances have no ensnare , meaning it is very easy for a vehicle that wanders into its firing arc to safely get out .

fire dragons have melta mechanics similar to storm troopers, but they lack that good root which makes up for the short range of storm troopers.

even wraith guard which while technically effective require alot more work to make them effective av.
you can argue a wraith lord can just a get a bright lance but that is a pretty hefty investment ( tank to counter tanks ??? not very efficent if that is all you are buying it for).



when i play eldar and a tank is deployed on the field , i almost always have to get a unit that otherwise does not mesh with my strategy and there in lies the major issue.

As an eldar I never look at the eldar av options as viable options like i do other races
rather what i see is a large variety of mediocre av options all of which have the same bottom line. That is they work , barely.

and sometimes barely is good , but against even slightly competent players , barely will not cut it.

[Ace of Swords]

^you are simply forgetting that all of their 'av' units are actually extremely good vs infantry.

[Codex]

Raffa, you've explained one side of things and not considered the other side.

In the current state of Elite Mod, Caeltos has gone to some length to try to ensure that ALL T1 units scale such that they have some use, however specialised or limited that use may be. Look at endless swarm for nids, and now the squad leaders.

The fact of the matter is that a shuriken cannon quickly drops off in dominance after T1, and by the end of T2 tends to be deadweight. This is also the reasoning behind the scorch beam, to give it some utility.

If you're happy to see Shurikens becoming more situational like before, that's fine. But then explain why the shuriken platform should be unique in its inability to scale from T1. If you DO think they should be able to scale, then the problem lies in the upgrade cost/timing/whatever, and not in the contraction of 2 units into 1.

Regardless of the argument at hand,

a) Dunning-Kruger happens in everything, Chess, reading comprehension, whatever. It's a psychological effect, so it being apparent in DOW2 is hardly surprising.
b) Appealing to that in your post is basically like a fuck you to other people. OMG you can't understand me cuz you so dumb you can't even see how dumb u r.

This happens in every post, every fucking post that I read of yours. You clearly don't understand that I'm mad at you, that Toil is mad at you, in addition to all the people you offend with your abrasive posts. You are never going to understand it because you haven't experienced it yourself, and even when you have you don't understand how it poses a problem.

Why do I bother trying to explain a concept like manners and basic human decency? I hinted, I alluded, I eventually warned, and you just write things that continue to show that you haven't a clue. It's like trying to teach quantum mechanics to a three year-old. No, a one year old.

TL;DR: People have the right to express their opinion here, and they have the right to be treated respectfully for holding said opinion. Equally you're allowed to disagree. This is where between normal people it enters a discussion (or even, shock horror, a debate), rather than "trololol you noob you don't understand anything".

This is your last chance: I'm saying it plainly now. Stop being a dickwad or I'm banning you. Now play nice.

That is all.

[Arbit]

Well I wrote this nice post and then Codex had to go and write a better one.

Basically, this is a public forum* and there's no point in having a meltdown whenever someone you feel is beneath your skill level contradicts you. Part of participating in a public discussion is honestly engaging and trying to convince everyone. If you can't do that, then you need to at least ignore the bad opinions and have faith that your argument with prevail on the strength of your logic and replays <-- ahem. Trying to browbeat people doesn't work and just makes you look like an asshole.

If you just want uberpr0 opinions, then PM tex (the only person you seem to defer to) and then PM the fruits of your discussion to Caeltos.

* i.e. open registration, I know the site is privately owned and mods/owners can do as they please

[Raffa]

@Codex
TL;DR

Otherwise...

No point discussing with people who don't understand it's like banging your head against a brick wall. I discuss most things with people I play with because you can debate points with people who know in-depth about the topic they are giving an opinion on.

Take Mantle of Hate discussion. I asked Osinski his opinion and he disagreed with me, yet I still asked he post it on the site so we had the benefit of someone who plays CL a lot and to a high level giving his opinion. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me.

What pisses me off is when good suggestions are knocked down by people who have 0 clue what they are really about. That long-ass post was the best I have seen in a long time, clearly outlining the problems between Warlock and Chaos, yet the key point out of it is discarded and rejected by people who want to theorise and commentate while knowing jack shit.

Au revoir

[Arbit]

What pisses me off is when good suggestions are knocked down by people who have 0 clue what they are really about.

Putting aside whether you're actually correct in your assessment of who does and who doesn't know jack shit...

This a common thread in life. People want to give their opinion whether they are qualified or not. Hopefully, some day you'll find some way of dealing with that other than angry meltdowns and rage-quitting. Is this rage-quit no. 2, by the way?

[Codex]

This mod isn't made by democracy. Caeltos reads these threads, and if you post smart reasoned logical posts they will shine through, you know, because he himself has a deep understanding of the game. Flaming other people doesn't help the forums, the mod's popularity, or just people in general.

You say it like you're the only person who had to go through and get frustrated by people's posts. Relicnews wasn't much better (as I'm sure Caeltos and Arbit can attest to), though I won't pick out any belligerents in particular. The difference for me, here, is that the Lead Designer is in touch with these forums, unlike Relicnews.

I had hoped that perhaps being blunt, and pointing out mine and Toil's disappointment and frustration, that some sense could be shaken into you. But I suppose this is how you choose to respond.

So on that note, farewell, old friend.

[Tex]

Why must we do this to ourselves guys? Bleh.

[Tex]

To the point at hand. I think I already listed in another thread somewhere why this change has absolutely flatlined chaos T2 against eldar, but I guess I shall spell it all out again as well as expand on it just for your enjoyment!

1) Shuri cannon can be setup, sitting there shooting and suppressing, and then all of a sudden bam, your vehicle is taking massive DPS. This point can also be named "TIMING"
-"But Tex, this is something every other race can do other than nids, what's the problem with this?" The problem is that eldar has had it's window of vulnerability to vehicles effectively eliminated. For a race that is so mobile, so killy, and so capable, how is it not a problem that I cant off the top of my head think of an overall timing or racially specific weakness for them? This problem is exacerbated in the Chaos vs Eldar matchup because a chaos player traditionally was able to even out a weaker performance in late tier 1 with a strong performance in early tier 2.
-"But Tex, isn't it better that you are now dealing with 1 less platform that needs to be tied up? Before it used to be 2 shuri's and a lance, now sometimes it's only just 1 lance and the suppression is gone completely!" What? The suppression is gone? Tell you what, if you upgrade a single shuri into a lance and you find that still need some suppression, guess what you do, you buy another shuri. Having more or less of them makes absolutely no difference in terms of tieing things up. If the AV is the problem, then you tie up the AV. If the suppression is the problem, then you tie up the suppression. If the AV is behind the suppression, you flank or distract fire and tie up suppression with vehicle and tie up AV with infantry. The difference is in the upkeep, lack of utility that the brightlance weapon team USED TO force eldar players into, and the fact that a weapon was not already on the field and ready for action, simply waiting for an invisible upgrade to finish researching.

2) Well managed shuri cannons do not bleed (Maybe 1 member dies, so what! You still have full firepower without even reinforcing him). The lead member is a platform that can't be targeted by certain abilities, has heavy armor, and spreads damage between the other members. The formation of this weapon team is also the best in the game, making it hard to punish with grenades or frontal fire (which is coincidentally absorbed by the frontal member aka the cannon, and then spread nicely amongst his back row buddies. We can call this point "SCALABILITY"
-"But Tex, in retail, the shurikan cannon didn't scale into T2 ... etc etc". To that I would say, "Not true, and also, rightfully so!" Look how it just spring boarded you through T1 by being the best platform in that tier. Now it gets the very important role of protecting your T2 assets or being used as bait to start engagements. Now not only does the shurikan cannon scale into T2 and beyond, it has a fantastic ability too!

3) Chaos reliance on the dreadnaught against eldar in T2. We can call this point "DIFFERENT OPTIONS / CHANGED META".
-Bloodletters are power_melee now, Bloodcrushers take 55(?) seconds to build (in this amount of build time, you easily have the resources to build a dreadnaught instead), worship heals bloodcrushers less, plague marines are no longer beast mode and are not a very good investment against most eldar compositions, and raptors don't scale with AV options until T3. The only AV buff for chaos in this specified time frame is the firing rate of las cannon havoks. With all of that to consider, is it any wonder why more and more people are relying on the chaos dreadnaught to do some very heavy lifting for Chaos T2? It has the flexibility that (because of it's vanilla armaments and upgradeable options) chaos so desperately needs!


Now, read through this carefully. See if any of this stuff applies to you from either side of the equation. Make a carefully measured response, and most importantly, see if anything I have just said makes any sense at all or if I am a complete wack job who is out of touch with the current 1v1 Metagame.

RIP RAFFA... just tone down your "hate O rade" consumption man. I detest losing members of this community.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i still don't get why the bloodcrusher takes so long to build. i get that it's a hold over from retail but no one seems to have brought up why it takes so long to build, just that it takes a long time to build. yes, it was hard to counter in retail with that build time but i think bC made the wrong choice with the nerf and i'm pretty sure it has been nerfed since.

somewhat related to the topic at hand.

[dance commander]

i still don't get why the bloodcrusher takes so long to build. i get that it's a hold over from retail but no one seems to have brought up why it takes so long to build, just that it takes a long time to build. yes, it was hard to counter in retail with that build time but i think bC made the wrong choice with the nerf and i'm pretty sure it has been nerfed since.

somewhat related to the topic at hand.

I brought it up some time ago, I made an argument on the fact that both the price increase and build time were there just to avoid the rush and were never changed since then, people instead only focused on the fact that I menioned lowering the price (While I also said lowering the build time would have been a solution) and disregarded any argument I made as to why.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

IMHO the problem is that Eldar AV roster had not received such new soft and hard AV options and/or buffs on his AV options, maybe we wouldn't be bitching against this change.

Yes, Eldar only have two snares: Eldrich Storm and the Warspider Hayware grenade. But both are ones of the most powerful snares in the game. Without the mention that the Hayware Grenade not only snares and damage the vehicle, but disables his weapons for 15 seconds. Enough for a glass cannon race to obliterate any T2 vehicle.

[Torpid]

I brought it up some time ago, I made an argument on the fact that both the price increase and build time were there just to avoid the rush and were never changed since then, people instead only focused on the fact that I menioned lowering the price (While I also said lowering the build time would have been a solution) and disregarded any argument I made as to why.

Oh, you mentioned the build time? I didn't even notice -_-

My bad. I would totally agree that the bc needs a reduction in it's build time, it's functionally useless when you can start building one and by the time it comes out you would be 75% of the way to getting a dread out had you bought that instead. It might be 55secs, although I always just said it was a minute, either way it's way too high. Maybe drop it to 45, see how that goes, then to 40 if necessary.

[ThongSong]

is it just me or does the brightlance seem a little TOO accurate vs infantry compared to other hard av options? I've had that thing hit tac marines and hero quite a few times in light cover / standing out in the open.

it's not using the sorched ability or whatever, just it's default attack

[FiSH]

they all have 5% chance. brightlance may seem like it hits more often because it fires more often.

[sk4zi]

i fully agree with Tex here.

but first i want to anwser to some other things written in this thread.

Lets examine the other races, chaos get plagues which is mobile , has a snare and is very durable. it is an ideal unit not only for its av rolls but for its tanking roll. In a sense it does its av job and then does other things making it a very flexible investment.
you can easily deter vehicles with just that one unit.

what i want to say about this is, the plaque marines are really expensive and like tex sayed, they were hard nerfed in their durability (1. the reg is much less, 2nd they dont heal themselfes anymore on a death explosion - especially the second fact makes them much much less tanky as u assume. also they are no Heavy Infantery)
Overall chaos got a huge nerf in AV options - it has been sayed yet by tex.

the tzeentch dread is still very good, true, but its the only dread upgrade which makes the dread almost useless vs. infantery.

the same can be said for tacs with a rocket , tank bustas and even venom broods. they are all mobile which alone wont get you far, but they have a secondary attribute , spike damage, all of them can fire a volly and run away or at a vehicle.

Tank bustas and Venom Broods do NO infantery damage. both of them are no upgrades but single units which u need to buy seperately.
although Venoms have a second benefit its still not like a Brightlance, Warp Spiders or Wraithguard, which u buy all for other purposes and get the AV additional to the other good things thees units do
- last but not least. you got the Fire Dragons who do massive damage also to other units - they are really powerfull !!!!11

Space Marines is unique to the - i just upgrade my stuff and get what i want immediately.
this is on purpose. and its very expensive to do so.
also SM has really not much AV overall
- Lascan (similar to the Brightlance)
- Rocketlauncher - cost 40 power, does not that much damage, is on a squads which actually needs to do damage to infantery.
Most of the SM sqads are not dedicated damage dealers. Tacs are really nessecary for damage. so its usually a huge blow for damage, when they get a RL (even if they still do dmg) - Sternguard really helpes here, but they loose all their exp gotten in T1
- many reaces can have dreads..
+ T3 stuff (almost every T3 unit in the game is sort of AV)

- the libby lost his Heavy melee
- Plasmadevs barely hit vehicles
- Heroes are excludet (as it is at the eldar side)
its discussable thou.
why eldar heroes still have their AV wheapons but the Chaos Lord lost it. or the Autarch still has his Fusion gun, while the bloodletters lost heavy_melee but this starts to be moaning

ok so give something constructive:

- what about highering the upgrade Time of the Shurican > Brightlance Upgrade?
imho best would be the same time a Bloodcrusher needs to build, so this is not broken anymore and is just about who got the faster t2.
when the shuri is immobilized while the Upgrade like tzeentch havocs or Sternguards its also a solution for Tex´s described problem, sunndenly bein attacked from a bright lance.

[Caeltos]

- the libby lost his Heavy melee
- Plasmadevs barely hit vehicles
- Heroes are excludet (as it is at the eldar side)
its discussable thou.
why eldar heroes still have their AV wheapons but the Chaos Lord lost it. or the Autarch still has his Fusion gun, while the bloodletters lost heavy_melee but this starts to be moaning

I'm confused. Librarian never had heavy_melee.

Nor did Chaos Lord.

[sk4zi]

really ?

i apologize then if this is true.
i know that from the inverview Tasker gave at the start of Chaos Rising.
he offered to get the staff to have a heavy melee upgrade and he spoke about the chaos lord that he has a powerfull AV option with his claws.

i allways played like this in retail. (getting claws for Hero AV and Libby Staff for AV as well)

also in the 3.19 Wiki he has the heavy melee symbol.
(http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Lightning_Claws_(Chaos_Lord))

so it seems im at least right with the CL.
although in his "wheapons" index, he has it as power_melee...

[Nurland]

He has heavy_melee icon but power melee. Lib also never had heavy melee.

[sk4zi]

- what about highering the upgrade Time of the Shurican > Brightlance Upgrade?
imho best would be the same time a Bloodcrusher needs to build, so this is not broken anymore and is just about who got the faster t2.
when the shuri is immobilized while the Upgrade like tzeentch havocs or Sternguards its also a solution for Tex´s described problem, sunndenly bein attacked from a bright lance.

sorry for quoting that again but altough i honestly used the libby staff as av, i really dont want it to be read over this
edit: im really sad that i cant prove the lightning claw heavy_melee fact because it seems so long ago.
edit2: ok i found an old guilde for the CL (http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/p ... guide&st=1) and it seems it allways was power melee as you say but it was also recommendet to use it vs vehicles ...

[Dark Riku]

what i want to say about this is, the plaque marines are really expensive and like tex sayed, they were hard nerfed in their durability (1. the reg is much less, 2nd they dont heal themselfes anymore on a death explosion - especially the second fact makes them much much less tanky as u assume. also they are no Heavy Infantery)

Overall chaos got a huge nerf in AV options - it has been sayed yet by tex.

That's because retail PM's were retarded. And retail chaos T2 was all AV.
Which was retarded as well. Chaos doesn't have problems vs vehicles in Elite.

the tzeentch dread is still very good, true, but its the only dread upgrade which makes the dread almost useless vs. infantery.

Multi-melta for dread is amazing then vs infantry? Short range, popping a horma model per shot, yeey. And the tzeench dread is still good vs infantry due to the many rockets it fires and the ability it has.