Dawn of War Codex

I reeeally hate this guy. He just stays waaaay back from by Dreadnought and shoot it down. Even double repair is not enough against it. Forceses you to draw it back. Really annoying. It is 130 damage per hit btw, he doesn't mess around. And if you try to focus fire him down, his infiltration will allow him to survive so he doesn't die as instant as he should. That allows player to have enough health for retreat so your decreased ranged damage won't hurt him too.

Thats not all too sadly. He does too damm high damage to buildings too. Whats the problem with that? The problem is in TFFA match, yes, people plays it. He shoots down the generator at my VP while his rest of army fights against me. So, I can't just send someone to deal with him. And he shoot it ALL BLOODY DAY! From the beggining, and the very end of the game. So, in short :

- Vindicare Assasin does unfairly damage to vehicles. I am not saying it should be removed, just deserves a BIG nerf. It becomes even scrayer when the player activates ''Target Aquired'' ability.
- His infiltration makes him impossible to kill from ranged. Leaves too much health for a retreat move.
- Extended Operations upgrades is a big issue. His health buff increases his health to 500 hp and that's too high for a sub commander who will sit at back for the whole day, even Zoanthropes have less health and they are being much closer to fights.

let's not forget the combination of mind blades, shrouding, and target acquired that leads to absurd unavoidable damage spikes on high value infantry or vehicles

but that takes more micro than operatives, so probably balanced

Forestradio wrote:let's not forget the combination of mind blades, shrouding, and target acquired that leads to absurd unavoidable damage spikes on high value infantry or vehicles

To put that in numbers:

Exitus Rounds: 190 dmg
Turbo Penetrator Rounds: 130 dmg
Target Aquired: +10 range +50% dmg
Mind Blades: +10 melee skill +20% dmg
Shrouding: Infiltration +25% dmg

So all in all the damage is almost doubled (~370/~240 dmg) at range 65 out of infiltration (he only has sight 45 though tbf), because huehuehue...To give you an example: he starts one-shooting lvl 1 Tac models. Or two-shooting Razorbacks. Zoans? You guessed it...bye bye.

Forestradio wrote:but that takes more micro than operatives, so probably balanced

Target Aquired duration: 20 seconds
Mind Blades duration: 20 seconds
Shrouding duration: 25 seconds

Even the slowest person could pull off this combo, without even using hotkeys, hence balanced...

GL using a transport vs gk is all I am going to say.

Toilailee wrote:GL using a transport vs gk is all I am going to say.

It is rather pointless. It dies in seconds.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:

Forestradio wrote:let's not forget the combination of mind blades, shrouding, and target acquired that leads to absurd unavoidable damage spikes on high value infantry or vehicles

To put that in numbers:

Exitus Rounds: 190 dmg
Turbo Penetrator Rounds: 130 dmg
Target Aquired: +10 range +50% dmg
Mind Blades: +10 melee skill +20% dmg
Shrouding: Infiltration +25% dmg

So all in all the damage is almost doubled (~370/~240 dmg) at range 65 out of infiltration (he only has sight 45 though tbf), because huehuehue...To give you an example: he starts one-shooting lvl 1 Tac models. Or two-shooting Razorbacks. Zoans? You guessed it...bye bye.

Forestradio wrote:but that takes more micro than operatives, so probably balanced

Target Aquired duration: 20 seconds
Mind Blades duration: 20 seconds
Shrouding duration: 25 seconds

Even the slowest person could pull off this combo, without even using hotkeys, hence balanced...

Another question: how much does all that cost? Not saying it is barranced or not . but that does require the presence of two relatively fragile, excessively power hungry, upgrade addicted 1 model units too work.... and a global that noms red.

Let us say you do not purchase the Librarian (although why not?) the red cost for Mind Blades is negligible if you consider that you can easily kill a high value target such as a transport vehicle or a unit like the Zoan. The single-target damage is still extremely high, even without the Shrouding. It makes support vehicle play nearly worthless because of the Vindicares extreme range and damage. The GK army was also built on the premise that you have a composition where every unit can push the rest of the army with its abilities (at least that is how Caeltos envisioned them to be). There may be circumstances where the Librarian may not be a no-brainer purchase but I can't think of one right now. He just gives so much to the rest of the army. 350/30 is also not a steep price for the Vindicare. For God's sake, he pops models like it's nothing, which already makes up for the investment. 350/65 + 70/20 is also not much considering what I have said before about the value of the Libby. A good example of good Libby play would be Forestradio vs Tex on Quests heresy. Watch how shrouded Paladins mop the floor with....everything (intentional exaggeration). The 360 degree melee counter also comes in very handy as does the Smite ability. For 5 more power, he has 200 more health than his SM brother as well. Of course, if you want to rush T3 for Paladins or Terminators, sure, these purchases will hinder you.

the entire point of the sniper "rework" was to make it so that bullshit one shot kills were reduced wasn't it? that's why rangers and scouts can barely kill anything anymore...

so no, one hit instakills are not really justified, especially not out of infiltration from a huge range across the map, they are just as toxic as the old snipers/rangers that were killing HI models every second shot

trading 75 red for a high value target like a transport or zoan or w/e is definitely worth it

and the gk libby and va are not power hungry, definitely not moreso than any other subcommander, not to mention that as single entities they by definition don't bleed while adding a lot of utility to your own force and bleeding the enemy

Forestradio wrote:the entire point of the sniper "rework" was to make it so that bullshit one shot kills were reduced wasn't it? that's why rangers and scouts can barely kill anything anymore...

so no, one hit instakills are not really justified, especially not out of infiltration from a huge range across the map, they are just as toxic as the old snipers/rangers that were killing HI models every second shot

trading 75 red for a high value target like a transport or zoan or w/e is definitely worth it

Couldn't agree more.

so logically would this be fixed if the 50% damage bonus was changed to a 50% rate of fire bonus?

same dps , but it avoids the ugly situation of sniping models with no warning.

That being said , if we were to reduce the potency of the vindi assassin then his standalone durability needs to be compensated a fair bit.

his base hp is too low to justify a t2 sniper that is only threatening to stuff rather than lethal

Nah. Id say give him a movement snare to targets he is attacking for like 3 seconds. The slow starts of large (like 60%) but for every second past the slow is reduced by 15- 20%. No to increasing his durability.

That seems needlessly complex and why no to durability?

the only justification for having a sub 500 hp unit in t2 is either it is a tank or it does something dangerous.

and the vindi is really only dangerous when super buffed. you remove the super buff and all you have left is a ridiculously squishy sniper unit with a notable loss in potency.

this is a unit after all that can be flesh hooked at hull hp into a single melee squad and have a real chance of certain death

saltychipmunk wrote:That seems needlessly complex and why no to durability?

the only justification for having a sub 500 hp unit in t2 is either it is a tank or it does something dangerous.

and the vindi is really only dangerous when super buffed. you remove the super buff and all you have left is a ridiculously squishy sniper unit with a notable loss in potency.

this is a unit after all that can be flesh hooked at hull hp into a single melee squad and have a real chance of certain death

Care to explain how you flesh hook (range 36) a unit that stealths automatically with every piece of cover and range 55?

saltychipmunk wrote:and the vindi is really only dangerous when super buffed. you remove the super buff and all you have left is a ridiculously squishy sniper unit with a notable loss in potency.

He does 190(!!!) anti-infantry sniper dmg per shot. He helps popping models easily. And as I have explained before, he does all that out of infiltration and from far superior range. If you let him get fleshhooked, that means that you let detectors come too close to him in the first place.
I have to agree with Ace here. If microed properly (like all sniper units should be) he should not get fleshhooked easily unless it is a T3 Lictor.

by having 1 moment of carelessness? happens more often then you think......., actually if you play alot of pubs it happens more often than it doesn't happen.
I can understand players of your skill level having a finer level of control over every little unit they own . But not everyone otherwise we could argue every specialist unit into having the durability of plywood.

It boils down to risk vs reward. the vindi currently has a very high damage potential , op some will say. But statistically he is also on purchase the second most fragile unit (behind a zoanthrope with no energy shield) in the game and requires a pretty heavy investment into not one but two power heavy upgrades to offset this downside..

A risk, and a reward. A give and a take.

All i am saying is if you sharply reduce the potency of the reward (which i am not explicitly against mind you), the give... well then it might.. just might be acceptable to reduce the risk a little.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:

saltychipmunk wrote:and the vindi is really only dangerous when super buffed. you remove the super buff and all you have left is a ridiculously squishy sniper unit with a notable loss in potency.

He does 190(!!!) anti-infantry sniper dmg per shot. He helps popping models easily. And as I have explained before, he does all that out of infiltration and from far superior range. If you let him get fleshhooked, that means that you let detectors come too close to him in the first place.
I have to agree with Ace here. If microed properly (like all sniper units should be) he should not get fleshhooked easily unless it is a T3 Lictor.

190 for a t2 single model sniper with all his upgrades is not at all that impressive. It is not even close to being similar to pre nerf rangers or scouts where you could get multiple squads of snipers poping infantry all over the place doing 300+ damage to units in bursts. he is a single t1 sniper who without buffs cannot one shot anything other than explicitly low hit point models.

The key point is in your own post. he helps , but he doesnt do not without help , not on the first shot which means you have warning for the second and not without assistance be it from buffs or other units.

It really just sounds like we should just scrap him as a concept. you dont want his buff to be dangerous i can get behind that, you dont want his normal attack to be dangerous either.......or at-least you feel it is plenty dangerous already

then what the hell is the point of having a sniper ? whats the point of having THE warhammer sniper if he cant kill anything in one shot? It is kind of his thing after all...

by having 1 moment of carelessness? happens more often then you think......., actually if you play alot of pubs it happens more often than it doesn't happen.
I can understand players of your skill level having a finer level of control over every little unit they own . But not everyone otherwise we could argue every specialist unit into having the durability of plywood.

It boils down to risk vs reward. the vindi currently has a very high damage potential , op some will say. But statistically he is also on purchase the second most fragile unit (behind a zoanthrope with no energy shield) in the game and requires a pretty heavy investment into not one but two power heavy upgrades to offset this downside..

A risk, and a reward. A give and a take.

All i am saying is if you sharply reduce the potency of the reward (which i am not explicitly against mind you), the give... well then it might.. just might be acceptable to reduce the risk a little.

Bad micro isn't a reason to buff a unit, at all.

then what the hell is the point of having a sniper ? whats the point of having THE warhammer sniper if he cant kill anything in one shot?

In fact the sniper changes were dumb to begin with, but since it's what we have now the VA needs to be brought in line with other snipers, aside from that, his main role is AV not anti infantry, he was first implemented to provide snare and long range AV to GK when all they had were psycannons (he's basically intended to be a lascannon) but the snare coupled with how fast he is, the cloak, the long range and very low setup time made it stupidly OP.

Ace of Swords wrote:Bad micro isn't a reason to buff a unit, at all.

as a singular reason? I agree player skill alone is not a good way to balance things. I was mostly using it as an example to facilitate a point . It is clear as day that the assassin being fragile is designed to off set his damage. this i am sure you wont contest. Therefore it stands to reason that It is at-least somewhat expected that countering him would in no small part rely on putting the vindi into a vulnerable situation be by human error or by a well executed strategy.

But in the end it is about this low hp justifying this high damage spike.

Ace of Swords wrote:In fact the sniper changes were dumb to begin with, but since it's what we have now the VA needs to be brought in line with other snipers, aside from that, his main role is AV not anti infantry, he was first implemented to provide snare and long range AV to GK when all they had were psycannons (he's basically intended to be a lascannon) but the snare coupled with how fast he is, the cloak, the long range and very low setup time made it stupidly OP.

Then i stand by my assertion... why bother with him being a sniper? why not just make him an actual av unit balance his stats around that and remove the high anti infantry potential.

give him a damage type that is effective vs all units but make the damage itself not all that high and remove the weapon ammo swapping.

say he does 100 anti all damage type and he gets an ability that doubles his fire rate. no more damage spikes.

firatwithin wrote:I reeeally hate this guy. He just stays waaaay back from by Dreadnought and shoot it down. Even double repair is not enough against it. Forceses you to draw it back. Really annoying. It is 130 damage per hit btw, he doesn't mess around. And if you try to focus fire him down, his infiltration will allow him to survive so he doesn't die as instant as he should. That allows player to have enough health for retreat so your decreased ranged damage won't hurt him too.

Thats not all too sadly. He does too damm high damage to buildings too. Whats the problem with that? The problem is in TFFA match, yes, people plays it. He shoots down the generator at my VP while his rest of army fights against me. So, I can't just send someone to deal with him. And he shoot it ALL BLOODY DAY! From the beggining, and the very end of the game. So, in short :

- Vindicare Assasin does unfairly damage to vehicles. I am not saying it should be removed, just deserves a BIG nerf. It becomes even scrayer when the player activates ''Target Aquired'' ability.
- His infiltration makes him impossible to kill from ranged. Leaves too much health for a retreat move.
- Extended Operations upgrades is a big issue. His health buff increases his health to 500 hp and that's too high for a sub commander who will sit at back for the whole day, even Zoanthropes have less health and they are being much closer to fights.

i never had any problems dealing with Vindicare Assassin. Get more experienced.

^^ That's probably because you haven't faced someone who uses Vindicator in 3v3. This is all from a 1v1 perspective m8. And if you can get a Vindicator the you nearly negate all transports in the game and if one was already purchased keeping it alive will tax your micro and you map control caz you'll have to spend half the time you own it giving the vehicle repairs. Lets not include he one shots more infantry period and if he has all 3 buffs a CSm model dies on one hit or your AC on your CSM is about to die and now requires you to pretty much purchase him again.

I recall having all 3 buffs on vindicator and one shotting a zoanthrope. Lucky his shield was down (hehe crew) but i already dealt with something that many people consider a giant headache due to his massive burst damage. Dreadnoughts are a bad purchase vs GK imo due to this little guy here. Not paladins. And he can stay out of line of sight so you have to guess where he is shooting from.

This guy is amazing and he should get a nerf in one form of another. Previously I said vehicles should be snared when hit where the movement speed reduction is slowly reduced as small goes on.

Black Relic wrote:^^ That's probably because you haven't faced someone who uses Vindicator in 3v3. This is all from a 1v1 perspective m8. And if you can get a Vindicator the you nearly negate all transports in the game and if one was already purchased keeping it alive will tax your micro and you map control caz you'll have to spend half the time you own it giving the vehicle repairs. Lets not include he one shots more infantry period and if he has all 3 buffs a CSm model dies on one hit or your AC on your CSM is about to die and now requires you to pretty much purchase him again.

I recall having all 3 buffs on vindicator and one shotting a zoanthrope. Lucky his shield was down (hehe crew) but i already dealt with something that many people consider a giant headache due to his massive burst damage. Dreadnoughts are a bad purchase vs GK imo due to this little guy here. Not paladins. And he can stay out of line of sight so you have to guess where he is shooting from.

This guy is amazing and he should get a nerf in one form of another. Previously I said vehicles should be snared when hit where the movement speed reduction is slowly reduced as small goes on.

i faced 1v1 2v2 3v3 Vindicare Assassins and wrecked them and they were good players.

Let's make sure we keep the discussion on VA and not questioning the skill of other players

GK player here. Nerf the VA. He solves so many problems and bleeds models with ease. He's mediocre in 3v3 but is amaze-balls in 1v1. Other T2 composition buffs will be needed to compensate (ie: buff UP stuff while nerfing OP stuff), but the problem with the VA is that like WB he fits into nearly every composition.

I am personally in favor of removing the damage buff from Target Aquired, as well as the speed reduction after the duration expires.

Alternatively, further alter the Turbo-penetrator rounds to fire faster for less damage, OR reduce the potency of his Exitus rounds. As many have mentioned the spike AV damage overly punishes light vehicle play with what is, as mentioned, a unit that safely fits in every composition. In other words, make the VA either an anti-infantry or anti-vehicle specialist, instead of both. Having access to high potency versions of both is where I see his biggest problem.

Cyris wrote:GK player here. Nerf the VA. He solves so many problems and bleeds models with ease. He's mediocre in 3v3 but is amaze-balls in 1v1. Other T2 composition buffs will be needed to compensate (ie: buff UP stuff while nerfing OP stuff), but the problem with the VA is that like WB he fits into nearly every composition.

I am personally in favor of removing the damage buff from Target Aquired, as well as the speed reduction after the duration expires.

Alternatively, further alter the Turbo-penetrator rounds to fire faster for less damage, OR reduce the potency of his Exitus rounds. As many have mentioned the spike AV damage overly punishes light vehicle play with what is, as mentioned, a unit that safely fits in every composition. In other words, make the VA either an anti-infantry or anti-vehicle specialist, instead of both. Having access to high potency versions of both is where I see his biggest problem.

a post that makes sense everything is stated clear, i dont agree with the nerf though.

Cyris wrote:GK player here. Nerf the VA. He solves so many problems and bleeds models with ease. He's mediocre in 3v3 but is amaze-balls in 1v1. Other T2 composition buffs will be needed to compensate (ie: buff UP stuff while nerfing OP stuff), but the problem with the VA is that like WB he fits into nearly every composition.

I am personally in favor of removing the damage buff from Target Aquired, as well as the speed reduction after the duration expires.

Alternatively, further alter the Turbo-penetrator rounds to fire faster for less damage, OR reduce the potency of his Exitus rounds. As many have mentioned the spike AV damage overly punishes light vehicle play with what is, as mentioned, a unit that safely fits in every composition. In other words, make the VA either an anti-infantry or anti-vehicle specialist, instead of both. Having access to high potency versions of both is where I see his biggest problem.

Agreed that VA should preferably be anti-vehicle only. There is no use for him to be anti-infantry. Because the GK roster is predominantly anti-infantry, if not anti-all with psycannons.

I see VA coming out the gate with strictly anti-vehicle base dmg, and maybe an up-gradable buff to increase his speed once in a while.

An Assassin whose job is , by dictionary definition, killing people as an av primary?

it doesn’t matter , he got obliterated in the patch replaced almost entirely by the rhino with a las cannon.

saltychipmunk wrote:it doesn’t matter , he got obliterated in the patch replaced almost entirely by the rhino with a las cannon.

That's a bold claim that I wouldn't agree with based on my personal experience. Your mileage my vary, and I'd love to see replays of sick OM las-rhino plays.

IMO: VA is weaker now, but still a near auto-buy. Las-Rhino absolutely remains a solid addition to your roster against specific vehicles. But unless you are expecting such an immediate T2 vehicle rush (like trukk, deff, BC, banewolf etc) the VA often still feels like the correct choice. That, and the HB Rhino gives you just SO much map presence, I try to avoid needing the las (often by having a purg and a VA come T2).

Cyris wrote:That's a bold claim that I wouldn't agree with based on my personal experience. Your mileage my vary, and I'd love to see replays of sick OM las-rhino plays.

IMO: VA is weaker now, but still a near auto-buy. Las-Rhino absolutely remains a solid addition to your roster against specific vehicles. But unless you are expecting such an immediate T2 vehicle rush (like trukk, deff, BC, banewolf etc) the VA often still feels like the correct choice. That, and the HB Rhino gives you just SO much map presence, I try to avoid needing the las (often by having a purg and a VA come T2).

personal preference. I almost never bought the VA before, and I still almost never buy him. if anything I think purgation pushed him out of the hard AV role, at least for my playstyle. Las rhino I pretty much get exclusively against transports since there arent many other good chase AV options. HB is still miles better compositionally though. super mobile vehicle with 80 piercing dps is tough to pass up near the start of t2.

in my experience OM struggles the most against linebreaker units like ASM and such, which the VA is noticeably weak to. I just dont usually feel like my composition is impacted enough by him as a first t2 purchase. but thats just me

Crewfinity wrote:

Cyris wrote:That's a bold claim that I wouldn't agree with based on my personal experience. Your mileage my vary, and I'd love to see replays of sick OM las-rhino plays.

IMO: VA is weaker now, but still a near auto-buy. Las-Rhino absolutely remains a solid addition to your roster against specific vehicles. But unless you are expecting such an immediate T2 vehicle rush (like trukk, deff, BC, banewolf etc) the VA often still feels like the correct choice. That, and the HB Rhino gives you just SO much map presence, I try to avoid needing the las (often by having a purg and a VA come T2).

personal preference. I almost never bought the VA before, and I still almost never buy him. if anything I think purgation pushed him out of the hard AV role, at least for my playstyle. Las rhino I pretty much get exclusively against transports since there arent many other good chase AV options. HB is still miles better compositionally though. super mobile vehicle with 80 piercing dps is tough to pass up near the start of t2.

in my experience OM struggles the most against linebreaker units like ASM and such, which the VA is noticeably weak to. I just dont usually feel like my composition is impacted enough by him as a first t2 purchase. but thats just me

pretty good assessment. the VA needed that punch to justify all the other short comings he had i said that pretty much since the beginning. now that he doesnt have that you have what is essentially an over priced single model t2 sniper unit / av that is not explicitly great at either role. don’t get me wrong he does damage to heavy infantry with his rifle and he does damage to tanks with his rifle. but the damage itself is not so impressive as to justify him as a early buy.. or an any buy. you want av, purgs in a rhino has better general utility over purgs and a vindi. in short his damage values are not threatening .

the rhino is kind of in the same boat in that its damage is not explicitly threatening (las) but at the same time the rhino has a whole set of other perks that make it a great buy. like being able to reinforce units , being able to hide vulnerable units , the smoke launcher, having more hp than the assassin while having vehicle armor ....... seriously....... being more mobile, being immune to suppression and target abilities and being shockingly easier keep alive and then it works well with purges. plus you don’t need to go las rhino ... it is an upgrade after all. just buy the rhino, feel out what the opponent is doing and then upgrade.

most gk games for me now are basically a mix of strikes, ist, purges, ops, rhinos and terminators exclusively. the under-performing units are really really obvious right now. its exploitable too.

and i feel forced into using grenade launchers on ist too. gk seriously needs more counter setup options not that ist nades are bad .. but every single game the most effective bo is always strikes 2 ist with a mix of gl + purge /op