Dawn of War Codex

Hey everyone, long time no see. I've found myself with some extra free time on my hands do to the break and decided to play a few games. Playing more 1v1s than I have done so since retail, I've really come to have a fond and quite deeply intricate connection with the Apothecary.

Playing a number of games, I just can't possibly conceive of, in anyway shape or form, any realistic normal circumstantial settings that I would come to pick up the Apothecary's power axe in T2, and the reasons why post-cede here...

1.) Apothecary conception of play
-moderate-low armored/health/Field Presence> staying power

2.)Other Apothecary, Unit Purchases, & Conflicting wargear choice upgrade alternatives

3.) Time, Space, & Projection regarding Apothecary role, Impact felt, & Faction force presentation

The Apothecary is your relatively...
-Quite supportive infantry versatile equipped
- Well-rounded (Self- Capable)
-Reasonably Mobile, *while capable of becoming quite agile with upgrades*
-Moderately armored/ decent sized health-pool/relatively reasonable safe and suggestively stable conditional situational commander in regards to proximity to foes-damage, *often the* (Master-Crafted Bolter)
-And has reasonably supportive- moderate health shaving- consistent damage, as well as force multiplier *soft stat* affects/effects which is most often felt given his contribution to Supportive Burst healing, A.o.E. healing, and active "Ability" usage to infantry skirmishes.

Conception
-Now given his conception (Or at least my conception of how he plays)...he is very well- versed to play in a manner which is in all regards supportive to his units within a relatively reasonable proximity radius of distance to him; (He doesn't often want to go off on his own) employing more so than many other commanders, personal self- cognizance towards utilizing situational clarity of perspective, understanding of maneuverability regarding game mechanics, critical positions & location: as well as instance of priority judgement calling as means to dictate the course of one's direction and play going forwards.Tactical Marines are relatively speaking, "quote on quote", "The Foundational Unit" for S.M. in T1; their usually favored moderate ranged proximity style of engagement, protective precaution of unit model stability regarding conscious action, & moderate-low pierce, burst D.o.T. health peeling applications often sees the Apothecary attached to this unit given his mannerism of play, conception, and mannerism of damage affiliation, though there are those few instances where one pairs with scouts, and most notably A.S.M.

Overlying Naturalistic Problem Arc
-The greatest problem with the Apothecary in T1 and I'd say throughout the rest of the game in itself, is usually his means to be able to maintain his health over the course of the engagements given his (1) Priority (2) Moderate Standing health pool, and (3) lack of damage delivery mechanics/sustainability, given one wants to save the heals for allied units, stay out "Priority Ranged Distance", and still be of effective use to his team let alone healing & aura/Support Buffs, & C.C's. (To which is why the (Master Crafted Bolter), or as means of retaining his health (Sanguinary Chainsword) are so favored whether it is T1 or T2.

(A) The Apothecary Conception Problem
-Given this to be the case, the greatest problem with ever buying the Apothecary Power Axe in T2, is the fragile nature of the Apothecary even when supported by other units nearby...Often in many cases he is already "the Priority of force off Or Assassination" given his healing capabilities...and throwing the Apothecary into the fray in T2 against relatively now well-versed, established, & more so capable units given upgrades and greater field established unit composition...well it's like... sending over a wrapped and gifted Christmas present to your foe given that the Apothecary's full scale felt Skirmish impact comes over the course of the engagement in a *soft stat* force modifier like means of application rather than directly noticed Impactual damage standpoint of perspective given his inability to fight for prolonged periods "Within the Fray". You're not usually wanting to be trying to pull aggro against the entire force composition of the other player, he just doesn't have the ability to stand up against that type of damage, and a Power Axe as a counter-initiation role is just a truly very sad Apothecary. In addition, going on later into T2- T3, often signals shift for your Apothecary to stay away from such "Heavy Concentrated" engagements where utilizing focus fire through units, H.o.T, and Kiting mechanic conceptions are of much better prospect play given the conscious means to be able to play & fiddle with number peeling advantages, armored poking and feel outs, as well as prospect compositional assemblage and placement for the ensuing skirmish. Engaging with the Apothecary against such well-standing units in such a heads on manner is just truly unrealistic and quite unreasonable in most cases. In addition, while the Apothecary is decent in melee, in large scale engagements, I wouldn't count on him to turn the tide of an engagement, he's just not a Force Commander.

(B)Choices
-When one reaches T2, the very last upgrade I'm considering to buy is a Power Axe. I have to upgrade my A.S.M. if I chose to buy them, my tactical marine unit, my scouts if I haven't (Which is rather inconceivable to not have done so already) , you need to bring out other units, buy their upgrades as well, and then you still have to take into consideration if you have a stable field presence, the compositional assortment of the other player's force, as well as the means to actually even be able to reasonably gather an assessment of whether not utilizing a melee Apothecary is even worthy of one's time going further given the inevitable conclusion of vehicles and the Apothecaries out right inability to deal with them and what that means for your force going further if you try and transition your force in some mannerism, shape, &/ or form to compliment such a direction...

(C)Time, Space, & Projection (The moment)
-Every Starting Unit, Purchased unit, & ensued wargear &/or upgrade purchase choice has it's moment of dawning where said element is most impactually felt. A scout squad's presence is most known & felt in T1 where it can accumulate the experience to level and gain health and energy regen, as well as unit model health sustainability, and minor though rather non-existent ranged damage needed to be of somewhat viable threat later on in the game by nitpicking relatively low-established T1 units if not the whole squad given, very much at the time possible, nade spikes (Even nade spikes lose effectiveness over time given health). A Razorback purchase is at its best in the beginning of T2 where it can solely force off the entirety of another player's force given the naturalistic standing situational inability to counter. A flamer is usually most impactually felt in T1 when burning generator farms, dealing with garrisons, and mowing down low health established infantry squads is very much a viable choice option, though not so much in T2 and hardly at all in T3. The Power Axe, is just never really felt in T2 whether it be near the beginning or towards the end, unless the levels are there, and making the choice application to go melee as a Apothecary early in T2 is a very hap-hazardous choice arc given the time standing of the game where saturation by ranged fire capabilities> unit choice options become available by most if not all factions. Unless the other player has gone for a moderately heavy melee build themselves and somehow they don't know how to support it with some mannerism of ranged fire, it's really just an almost non-conceivable upgrade choice at times given situational presentation. I'm not sending My Apo to fight off genestealers w "Adrenaline Hopscotch Warriors". I'm not sending my Apothecary to go in and fight a Chaos Lord with Khorne Bezerker Support. I'm not sending my Apothecary to fight off an Ogryn Squad with ranged support (Unless I have the levels) due to having to factor in the attrocious and rather infamous "Bullgryn Rush". Obviously my Apothecary will have support by what is usually an A.S.M. squad but I mean...it really does just come down to levels, situation, and rationality. Even in the situations where I could conceive a Power Axe as a viable upgrade (Gibbing guardsman and infantry ranged units is a nice conception also) it's rather unreasonable given How most of the units you would come up against would special/C.C./ranged drain the life right out of him.

At the end of the day I'm not expecting the Power Axe to become some "very commonly used wargear choice" but certainly an "actual wargear choice".

Closing Reasons to move it to T1 & What I would tinker with...
-Commanders
-Impact Felt on Marine and melee counterpart Equivalent regarding a "damage standpoint"
-Momentum w Other T1 upgrades

Sometimes all an upgrade needs is the atmosphere to shine and be felt. It's why you buy the sanguinary chaninsword against chaos despite knowing you probably want to go ahead and buy the Master-crafted bolter later on given you just don't want to go into melee later on. However, as it stands now, having that sanguinary chainsword out early in T1 will really be of great impact.

One of the most difficult task for the Apothecary to deal with in a reasonable fashion comes in relations to fending off Tanky Commanders as well as melee units. His default chainsword is laughable at best, though it's quite admirable and duly noted Sir Apothecary, at least you're trying. The Power Axe in T1 would really just add new dimensia to this commander in T1. Having a truly decked out "Melee Apothecary" rather than a "Sustained Melee Commander" going up against for-say the Chaos lord, or the Hive Tyrant, possibly even the warlock, a few of the Ork heroes (Maybe even the Bro-Cap)...will truly change his dynamic of play for what I believe to be the better. He will be able to gain the levels needed, deal out respectable damage, and gain the health and energy regen required to actually make usage out of the Power Axe with the other upgrades. It will have effectiveness during a time where energy shields are prevalent and draining the energy from units will be of great impact. He will have gathered some Momentum...Momentum being some mannerism of influence over the course of the game, given the Apothecaries *direct contribution* towards the engagements as opposed to what is his normalistic *soft stat* unit force multiplier/modifier influence, given his Kill aspect ratio melee capabilities in T1. Armor of Purity looks a lot more *Eye- Appealing* as an upgrade choice given how its also, somewhat often at times seems to be neglected as a wargear choice. Finally, given the Apothecary has absolutely no A.V. counters, and really has no means to stand up against Tanky Commanders at all as it stands other than to try and shoot them, at least giving him some mannerism of truly felt "situational standing versatility" regarding infantry damage dealing capabilities alongside being a force modifier and force multiplier will enable him to be a further so self-capable commander in relations to his counter-parts especially in the Lower Tiers where he can gather the most experience off low- equipped infantry before the vehicles start to come out.

*If "tweeks" were felt/needed to the wargear, I would procede by changing..."

Power Axe
100/20/20
100 Damage per hit
50 Damage per second
20 Second Upgrade

v
100/20/20
90 Damage Per hit
45 Damage per second
20 Second Upgrade

I think that would bring the upgrade into lines of reasonableness for its tier and then with the damage output, experience and level gains, as well as health and regeneration enable the upgrade to become more so what it should be as a foundational/transitional element that can be switched back to later on if needed/the situation presents itself much like if you were to buy the Sanguinary Chainsword in T1 and then buy the Master-Crafted Bolter later on in T2.

So what do you all think?

Pretty detailed analysis, well done.

This comes from a very average player who's played around a bit with the Apo and SM in general.

The apo shines in T1 where the heal on tacs/asm makes a huge difference as the dps levels remain quite low across the board. Once T2 hits the damage spikes quite a lot and a measly ~150 hp per model heal on a single squad does very little. I realise that the aura heals quite a bit of hp over the course of a game but in a committed engagement the Apo is by far the worst SM commander (Angels of Death is excellent however). He's also the worst SM commander when it comes to dealing with terminator variants and suffers vs GK the most.

This could also be considered anecdotal on my part or simply confirmation bias, but I've seen many high level games where no wargear is purchased for the Apo as spending resources elsewhere is much more useful. Compare stuff like supa tuff beam vs stimulants or purification rites and its laughable.

Also, moving the axe into T1 would make the sanguine chainsword a dubious purchase. I just couldnt see a situation where I'd buy it over the axe.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents

the power axe once was in t1, it was then quickly removed because the apoth was out matching actual melee heroes with it and its energy leeching ability was ridiculous on a commander that spams heals.

It was actually T1 for a very long time, but it was so stupidly broken beyond all logic.

All you would say is Power Axe, Armor of Purity + Purification Rites.

Sure, it's a heavy T1 investment, and one you might not afford to go with now. But nevertheless, that was the cheese-dominant T1 build that absolutely rekt most factions in terms of trying to contest T1, where SM's excellence was at a weak-point in the game. Commanders couldn't topple apo, neither could most melee-oriented units.

It's important to consider the multiplier of the weapon, and count the difference in melee swings it takes to kill crucial models. Specifically, power-armored factions, and Tyranids for synapse-backlash. With those considerations taken into account, it rapidly can get troublesome with a leveled Apothecary, and also suppliments with red income for global useage and etc.

Caeltos wrote:was

Hmm..wow I didn't know that it was in T1 before, and indeed I do understandthe swing/kill ratio is important...However, if it the upgrade were registered to be broken in the past then indeed I wouldn't promote imbalance, I just note that even at the beginning of T2 where the upgrade would be most likely purchased, as it stands now, it's a very (out of your way), quite "luxury" purchase that someone would only pick up if they were really ahead and had nothing else better to buy for being ahead (which there are). And If I have bought a Master-Crafted Bolter already or the sanguinary chainsword 1st, I usually would rather invest in other Apothecary wargear upgrades before picking this one up. I mean purification rights & Improved Medical Equipment switching, or Armor of Purity and Combat stimulants are more so fathomable than buying a power axe after buying a Master-Crafted bolter/ and never likely to be seen with a Sanguinary chainsword (Though of course not Impossible) All I know is that the area of the game (mid- upper T1> lower T2) where the weapon would really have the most impact...well it's just not there, and somehow coming up with a possible way to re-introduce it back into T1 without being so troll-tactic would be of very great benefit for the Apothecary regarding naturaliatic character development/transition...to be rather capable of excelling in some department in the game. He has the burst heals which is good, don't misunderstand, and who doesn't like the bolter, but his direct contribution measurement towards engagements is somewhat lacking given his inability to deal out legitimate "threatening model pick off" type of damage, bringing the other player's attention towards unit sustainability into play, and not placing so much emphasis on my own need to always need units around him seemingly at all times, giving him a greater sense of variety in some situations, I think that would be notable to look into.

However, I appreciate the feed back from the two of you.

Suggestively speaking, can we tinker with the energy sap? and the effects of indivual wargear upgrades used in combination with the Power- Axe to modify its impact capabilities that way?

ol'smithy wrote:Pretty detailed analysis, well done.

This comes from a very average player who's played around a bit with the Apo and SM in general.

The apo shines in T1 where the heal on tacs/asm makes a huge difference as the dps levels remain quite low across the board. Once T2 hits the damage spikes quite a lot and a measly ~150 hp per model heal on a single squad does very little. I realise that the aura heals quite a bit of hp over the course of a game but in a committed engagement the Apo is by far the worst SM commander (Angels of Death is excellent however). He's also the worst SM commander when it comes to dealing with terminator variants and suffers vs GK the most.

This could also be considered anecdotal on my part or simply confirmation bias, but I've seen many high level games where no wargear is purchased for the Apo as spending resources elsewhere is much more useful. Compare stuff like supa tuff beam vs stimulants or purification rites and its laughable.

Also, moving the axe into T1 would make the sanguine chainsword a dubious purchase. I just couldnt see a situation where I'd buy it over the axe.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents

It seems like you are seeing the apo making it through a game without purchasing wargear as a weakness. Quite to the contrary, being able to make it through a game without purchasing wargear on your hero is actually a huge strength! What this means is actually that your hero has something amazing by default, which clearly scales well enough to go through a game without augmentation.
I think in light of this fact, it must also be considered that the wargears on a hero like this must not be allowed to provide too much too soon, or it becomes way too easy to snowball.

The axe is fine as it is, don't touch what's not broken and it's plenty viable in T2, rites/axe/puri armor is very viable, especially against melee-heavy compositions, with that ASM can easily handle KCSM, letters, multiple hormas and sluggas etc.

With that you can easily have at your disposal a double heal/KB per engagement just from the apo. But it needs the right conditions, currently the meta is more based around high dps ranged units, that's why you can't afford to go melee with the hero that has the lowest healtpool in the game.

The only thing id like to see is purification rites damage go up as Apothecary levels. Not too sure how you would scale it though.

Black Relic wrote:The only thing id like to see is purification rites damage go up as Apothecary levels. Not too sure how you would scale it though.

Make it scale with apothecary heal. Since apothecary heal scales with level, purification rites should as well. Make it somewhere along the lines of 10-20% of heal.

i don't quite understand what you mean by 10-20% of heal. Do you mean the damage scaling by that percentage?

Black Relic wrote:i don't quite understand what you mean by 10-20% of heal. Do you mean the damage scaling by that percentage?

Er, let me explain. Heal currently works by giving 110 hp per model for a level 1 apothecary, then increasing by 30 every 2 levels. What I meant to say was to have the damage from purification rites be 10-20% of the heal at all levels.

To be exact, the apothecary heal is described as thus in the codex:
So for normal infantry, the Apothecary heals for 110/140/170/200/230 at levels 1/3/5/7/9; for units with commander armor, the Apothecary heals for 150/250/350/450/550 at levels 1/3/5/7/9. Range 25, 25 second cooldown.

My idea was to have purification rites deal 10-20% (balance decision) in damage of however much the heal did in healing. So at level 1, the purification rites deal, say, 22 damage. At level 3, it deals 28 damage and so forth.

The purification rites proposal sounds like a huge buff to it even out of the gate. Going by Codex, the wargear gives 15 piercing damage as it is. Starting at 22 is already a pretty large buff.

Atlas wrote:The purification rites proposal sounds like a huge buff to it even out of the gate. Going by Codex, the wargear gives 15 piercing damage as it is. Starting at 22 is already a pretty large buff.

Yes, hence 10-20% based on balance requirements. It's 22 only if purification rites damage is at 20% of heal. If it's, say, 14%, it becomes 15 damage as per before.

I think that damage should stay at 15 for level 1-2 and go up by like 2-4 damage per level. Rather than it do a percentage of the heal since in team games a heal on a commander would do a fair amount of damage.

Atlas wrote:The purification rites proposal sounds like a huge buff to it even out of the gate. Going by Codex, the wargear gives 15 piercing damage as it is. Starting at 22 is already a pretty large buff.

It was buffed from 15 to 25 last patch. I don't think anyone noticed