Fire Dragons

[ShowMeMagik]

Ok I get they are a little broken but how do people counter them. Especially in pairs. As an FC I tried asms and teleporter / TH But they just walk away and shoot.

What do people find the best way to deal with them

[DandyFrontline]

There are almost no counters to FD spam. The only way if you manage to outshoot them before they rape you. At the moment they are totally broken BS

[Ace of Swords]

Sterns with hell fire plus any support you can use for them, stims with apo, MCB with TM, SS or thunderhammer (to buff since you can't KB) as FC.

[Ordie]

Also, they are not immune to suppression, they just have a lot of courage. Shotgun Blast will still suppress as will TM MCB.

[egewithin]

A melee squad is a simple solution for one of them. In case of spam, multiple melee squads like double ASM might be a solution but generally ends up with a surrender

[Adeptus Noobus]

A melee squad is a simple solution for one of them. In case of spam, multiple melee squads like double ASM might be a solution but generally ends up with a surrender

Yes, because spending 100 power on units that can't even run as fast to counter double Fire Dragons seems ok ^^
I agree with Ace here. Sternguard Veterans with Hellfire Rounds do high damage to them. MCB and Shotguns have been mentioned already but suppression hasn't been fully explained here. Fire Dragons have 200 courage (instead of the normal 100), which means they take twice as long to be suppressed.
Chasing them with melee units, especially from the SM roster is folly. Their knockback immunity (to all forms) and high speed make them very elusive and difficult to catch. That is why ASMs are not a good idea. They will simply walk away from them. Thunderhammer will also not work because it is a) very slow in its animation and b) Fire Dragons are immune to all kinds of knockback. In addition, the splash damage was removed from the weapon as well.

[Nurland]

TH still damagrs them pretty significantly with Batthul Cry.

Anyhow, suppression +!buffed Sterns and/or melee seems like the only counter before 2.5

[DandyFrontline]

Also, they are not immune to suppression, they just have a lot of courage. Shotgun Blast will still suppress as will TM MCB.

FD cour = 200. Shotgun blast do 200 cour damage. I guess it's suppression for 1 second which is not much.

The problem with FD spam that there is always not just firedragons. While u'll waste resources desperately trying to counter them eldar can build SeerCouncils, FP, Avatar or just kick your ass with any other units

[Aguxyz]

Only can counter inb4

[Ordie]

Also, they are not immune to suppression, they just have a lot of courage. Shotgun Blast will still suppress as will TM MCB.

FD cour = 200. Shotgun blast do 200 cour damage. I guess it's suppression for 1 second which is not much.

The problem with FD spam that there is always not just firedragons. While u'll waste resources desperately trying to counter them eldar can build SeerCouncils, FP, Avatar or just kick your ass with any other units

I don't quite understand your comment DandyFrontline. If you are suppressed at 0 courage and that suppression lasts a set duration, what makes this suppression last less? And if you are no longer suppressed once you have any courage at all, suppression duration should still be the same, because all units regenerate courage at the same rate. And if you need full courage to be un-suppressed, wouldn't it take longer for Fire Dragons to get out of suppression?

Is there something about the courage mechanic I'm unaware of?

[Crewfinity]

https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... ry#courage


I wanna say that at 50 or so courage a suppressed until will no longer be suppressed... but i could be wrong. so having more courage is only a good thing.

[Lichtbringer]

Ordie is right, they will be supressed just as long as any other unit from a shotgunblast.
Once you got their Courage to 0, (most abilitys do 1000 courage damage), then you can keep them supressed like every other unit too with a devastator.

[DandyFrontline]

Ordie is right, they will be supressed just as long as any other unit from a shotgunblast.
Once you got their Courage to 0, (most abilitys do 1000 courage damage), then you can keep them supressed like every other unit too with a devastator.

Ah, well, might be

[Atlas]

2.5 changes seem to have addressed the FD issue so far. Too early to tell, but they're def not as crazy as they were in 2.4.2.

[Adeptus Noobus]

2.5 changes seem to have addressed the FD issue so far. Too early to tell, but they're def not as crazy as they were in 2.4.2.

I can confirm this. Since they are heavy infantry, they take increased damage from all Plasma (or anti-HI for that matter) weaponry. They are now also susceptible to ability knockback which was apparent during Atlas' stream when Floid charged his Carnifex into my Fire Dragons.

[Asmon]

No matter what are the issues, I find it immemsely ridiculous that you actually think everything is fixed after one night of tests. The internal balance in itself should be even more disturbed since FD are now more resilient to DA and WS fire and to investigate only this would take much more than a day.

[Forestradio]

Sterns with hell fire plus any support you can use for them, stims with apo, MCB with TM, SS or thunderhammer (to buff since you can't KB) as FC.

^this
if the eldar is fielding both wg and FD next patch, plasma weaponry might also be viable, especially as the TM, but that is theorycraft and shouldn't be taken seriously until 2.5 hits

for now, play extremely conservatively with your vehicles (never letting them stray far from your other units) and use the tools Ace mentioned

[Adeptus Noobus]

No matter what are the issues, I find it immemsely ridiculous that you actually think everything is fixed after one night of tests. The internal balance in itself should be even more disturbed since FD are now more resilient to DA and WS fire and to investigate only this would take much more than a day.

Well the issues discussed before were adressed. Namely "Dragon Scale Armor" and "Total immunity to knockback". I believe your were trying to hint at the internal state of balance for Fire Dragons with your pleasant-to-read and polite post. Since this is still not the final version, things are still subject to change. You could have asked but you opted for the uncool option.

P.S: FDs are now more susceptile to Dark Reaper fire btw, since FDs are now HI.

[Asmon]

Sorry that I've lost my cool bro. Apologies.

[Cyris]

I did a writeup on a rundown of the implications of the change a ways back. -30% ranged damage comboed with fire-resist infantry armor made them exceedingly resistant to many damage types. HI changes a lot more then just plasma, though it is the most identifiable.

https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... csm#p49686

The important bit being that ranged damage is everything that isn't melee. So FD in 2.4.2 take reduced damage form auto cannons, grenades, globals, heavy melee damage from PM DoT bolter, etc. In 2.5 none of this will be true, and instead they will take increased from a number of sources.

[Forestradio]

pc DoT is piercing dmg, not heavy melee

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1261

[Cyris]

Whops, got em confused with the Chosen's knife DoT. Thanks for the correction.