How to deal with chaos. As ig or in general. Also supression teams and artillery spotters.

[Trelleri]

Im pretty new to this mod but I have trouble vs chaos. I generally start 3 sents and do well but I lose mid game. I have trouble countering plague champion. Hes granade instantly forces a guardsman squad to retreat. Tier 2 sents just die and guardsman have tough time vs spacemarines until plasma and even after. In general chaos units feel stronger. And unless I have artillary how can I counter dug in positions. What counters csm? How to counter melee other than supression? Should I build catachans?

Thanks. Also if u have something else that might help me I would be thankful.

Random bonus question. How to counter vehicles with gray knights?


Edit: new questions. I didn't want to create another thread so I updated this one.
look below on the comments or look at here


When should I use supression teams autocannons and when to use artillery spotters.

Artillery spotters counter heavy weapons teams somewhat but cost more and are a reactive choice. Smoke nades are pretty good, but still I have hard time finding use for these dudes. When should I use them?

And second question when should I use autocannons. They feel worse than for example space marines vengeance round supression teams

[DandyFrontline]

To deal with nade you simply need Suppression team and use your sentinel stomp (also you can dodge it with some micro in some situations like if you see PC is closing to use, just go back). To deal with Heavy Infantry buy power sword if you use to play LC like me. To deal with almost all threads use Suppression team that can be upgraded to autocanon. Autocanon deal with everything - with execution ability you can easily destroy any vehicle in a matter of seconds. Vs Chaos nade launchers spammers deal with spotters and Sentinel launcher on t2. Sentinel is universal fast AV weapon in your pocket though. Everything else is deeply depends on situation - no energy - buy ST with AK, everything going well, got lots of resources - go t3 spam russes, rape everything etc etc

[Treller]

Thanks for the info.

[Cyris]

Random bonus question. How to counter vehicles with gray knights?

In order of usefulness...

#1 - Almost always make a VA, usually as your first purchase in T2, vehicle or no. This unit is good in nearly every composition, much like the Wierdboy. AV rounds plus Mind Blades and his internal buff can 2-3 shot almost all transports and lighter walkers (deff, BC). Savvy players will NOT make light vehicles against a GK on an even footing, unless they intend on playing very conservatively (this is also what you must do against Eldar with FD access). Against heavy walkers, you will need more AV (#2 or #4 from below) because while the VA's spike damage is high (130) his dps is not (17). I like to keep the VA moving so he doesn't waste shots on infantry. Once you have vision of your target (perhaps through stealthed Operatives who have increased sight range to boot) use the buffs and fire away. Strongly consider not activating Target Aquired till your second shot, since most players will move the vehicle away after the first shot. The increased range will often mean that you can get the 2nd off, and sometimes in the rear armor.

#2 - Purgation - This squad deals the same damage in a 3s burst as an autocannon (180), and fires more frequently. Much like the VA, 2-3 volleys will finish off most light vehicles, especially if comboed with Mind Blades. Understanding of burst duration helps here. Once the squad starts firing at a target, they will fire a 3s long burst that will hit REGARDLESS OF RANGE (unloading a total of 180 damage). This is part of why the Purg is so strong as AV, since if your enemy ends up staying within the firing arc for 3.1 seconds, a full 6 seconds of fire will hit it (360 damage + mind blades + any rear armor bonus). Combo this with activating Clear Vision after the first volley is starting, and again move up a unit to keep vision. This will often lead to a dead light vehicle.

#3- Libby + Shrouding - This is a tertiary AV source, existing only to buff up #1 or #2 (and sometimes #5). It's value really comes together when libby is generaly good against the enemy composition (it's generaly a good melee counter) and you have another AV source you need to buff up. Both Purg and VA are wonderful with shrouding in similar situations. Send it around to a flank while invisible while your main blob engages, then focus done the vehicles.

#4 - Las-Rhino - Las Rhino is very, and I mean VERY difficult to micro. The lascannon will often fire at random units besides the one you targeted, and it's lack of renforcement, high overall cost, low fire rate, low hp and only 2 seats make it a poor choice in general for GK. By contrast the HB Rhino is real strong, and only going to get better in 2.5. However, it is likely the best heavy melee walker AV option. Keep it at long range (behind your army) and only use it as the walker extends forward. After the vehicle is dead, use it to bash power.

#5 - SS Psycannon - While others have differing opinions, I find SS to be not worth investing in. As such, I only get the SS psycannon if I desperately need AV immedietly. It's AVdps is low, it has no spike damage and it can't fire on the move. Much like missile tacs, the piercing damage on the rest of the squad is wasted as you focus vehicles, but even worse since ML tacs can at least move between shots to auto-aquire infantry. Keep these guys as anti-infantry / commander dps and use other tools.

#6 - Melee dead - Not my recomendation, as it functionally loses to most other heavy walkers (bloodrage beats it bad, SM tend to have better repair support and good luck chasing down a wraithlord with FD around) despite it's high stats. Melee dread is a melee deterrent mostly, though it can zone (but likely not chase down) BC and Deff.

All in all, while I personally had a lot of trouble with vehicles in my early GK play, it doesn't come up much anymore. In other words, I was very wrong. My learning moment is when I gave up on focusing on transitional AV, and just made sure that my early T2 purchases could handle it. VA into Purg is my goto if I'm afraid of something coming soon, and VA into whatever if I'm not. 2.5 is going to change this a lot by introducing purgs in T1 (which I will be getting in nearly every matchup). This will open up your ability to get libby or even Purifiers as your first T2 purchase, with the safety of upgrading to psy if you smell a vehicle. However, even with those changes I find it hard to imagine not getting VA first in nearly every matchup. It is honestly a unit that needs nerfs, so abuse the fuck out of it till it gets them. Drink deep on your opponents tears.

PS: Specific vehicles and build orders you are having trouble with would help focus the answer.

PPS: If you are playing 3v3, just beg allies to make AV and focus on destroying enemy infantry. Generally ignore my advise in 3v3, I'm just the worst at it.

PPPS: Never make Purifiers as an AV choice unless you are very much winning as you enter T2. Scratch that, never make Purifiers unless you are already winning

[Cyris]

I generally start 3 sents

I'm sorry, do you really mean that? Geez, wow. I can't even manage 2 sents properly!

Against static players (setup teams, sitting in cover), almost always get spotters, they are like T1 manticores (no, not even remotely). Back spotters up with a hwt so your opponent can't easily respond by rushing at you. Catas are good if your enemy is going to be doing melee rushdown. Make sure to deploy IEDs everywhere.

In general, my IG advise is do not play them as a new player, unless you have a really strong lore tie to them. IG and Eldar are the two hardest races to play as, so start with easier factions if you are still spinning up. Chaos, GK and Nids are on the easy side.

[Ace of Swords]

What hero do you play, gamemode?

Post replays please, also while 3 sents is actually pretty good vs chaos in T1 (but it's a meh build vs PC since his will do a pretty good damage to them and his DoT will work as well), either 2 sents 2 gm or 1 sent 3 gm will be better as things stand now, as GM are very cheap and provide good enough fire power, while a single sent will be able to control CL/Sorc or melee tics/NM for long enough for you to deal with them.

Vs melee it really depends on your hero, same for catas, they can become stupidly powerful with LG/LC but with inq you are better off using HWT, to some extent you can even use spotters to disrupt melee units and gain time to damage them.

[egewithin]

My first suggestions is to never going for a unit for three times. Double Sentinal or Double Tac builds are cool but after a point of the game, enemy finds a way to counter it and you are out of options to counter the counter. I don't like one demintional builds.

Secondly, a Sentinal is a must against Chaos. Solution for tics, satisfying counter for CSm, more damage support against single target heroes, and a situatinal damage sponge. Double Sentinal play is also cool for Chaos, as long as you can repair them. Double GM gets in here. Making it 3 will be a mistake. If he reacts with a ranged army, I suggest for Ogryns for a suprize attack. I don't think he will keep his tics in melee when he sees double Sentinals in T1. He will probobly go for Grenade launchers. As long as there isn't a very hard anti-melee ( EG: Plague Champion ) Ogryns won't struggle. BUT ; in case of double Mark of Tzeentch CSM, Ogryns won't make an impact; even can turn the tables around.

[Treller]

Thanks a lot of information thanks. I might send a replay not sure. I generally play lc. And yea The main reason Which I want to play ig even tough they are hard is the lore. Love the Imperium. I quess I could try space marines more. But yea thanks a lot for the info.

[Nurland]

LC is the hardest IG hero to play generally and the MU favors Chaos in 1v1.

3 Sent is not a good idea. As Ace pointed out, 2 Sent, 2 GM and possibly Spotter/HWT/Cata or 1 Sent, 3 GM, and a T1,5 squad. 2 Sent builds are hard to micro though. So if going for 2 Sents, you need some skill to make it work. 3 GM, 1 Sent is an easier build to play.

Power Sword is very good against Chaos and Aura of Discipline is pretty nice as well. Especially with Catachans and/or Ogryns.

[Trelleri]

Got new questions.

When should I use supression teams autocannons and when to use artillery spotters.

Artillery spotters counter heavy weapons teams somewhat but cost more and are a reactive choice. Smoke nades are pretty good, but still I have hard time finding use for these dudes. When should I use them?

And second question when should I use autocannons. They feel worse than for example space marines vengeance round suppression teams.

[Ace of Swords]

Got new questions.

When should I use supression teams autocannons and when to use artillery spotters.

Artillery spotters counter heavy weapons teams somewhat but cost more and are a reactive choice. Smoke nades are pretty good, but still I have hard time finding use for these dudes. When should I use them?

And second question when should I use autocannons. They feel worse than for example space marines vengeance round suppression teams.

Spotters are there to counter multiple setup teams or ranged blobs, generally you start by smoking the suppression team and then focus it down before the reduced range effect wears off, if that's not enough you can knock it back with the mortar shell and that will give you enough time to force it off.

With their T2 incendiary shell you can use them to control tight corridors and as anti garrison on top of displacing setup teams, with some good plays you can use the mortar shell as anti melee as well, keep also in mind the spotter's smoke also works in vehicles.

The HWT is another control option, good vs blobs both melee and ranged (especially when buffed up with LG/LC's stuff), it also offers transitional AV in the forms of the autocannon and lascannon, generally nowadays the autocannons is the best option since it rapes pretty much everything, but the are some shenanigans you can do by executing one of the lascannon members and pretty much kill a dred in 3 shots, it's also the best setup team in the game, not only because it can be upgraded to either the auto or las cannon but because the shield you can buy in T2 reduces the ranged damage it takes by 50% and makes it KB immune, generally go for it if you know you will need hard/soft AV or you need to control stuff like a CL/FC and you aren't INQ.

[Trelleri]

thank you.
Cleared quite a bit.

[egewithin]

Your HWT can be countered by Raptors and Chaos Lord. So, I suggest and ancient Eldar tactic ; go double HWT. One to cover and control incoming enemy, second to cover the first HWT. So if Raptors jump in; you can suprize them with another set up team to the face while you try to walk the first one back. Try to leave a distance like half of maximum firing range. So you can instanly deal damage from close and instanly suppress them, also keeps your second HWT safe from a melee leap. Second HWT will be also a threat for Chaos Lord.

In late game, you can go for double autocannons to protect a contested victory point. But I suggest this for a big 3v3 match where you fight for a victory point around. Also, if melee is still a threat; keep one of them with heavy bolter (vanillia weapon / unupgraded) so you can still protect your stuff.