Autarch upgrades

[ChokoBambus]

Just wanted to talk a little bit about the autarch upgrades and try to draw parity between the Eldar mini commander and the other classes commanders.

The autarch in its base form and summoning effect is fine. It is pretty good actually. It gives the resistance aura, it inspires, it is fast and it can leap. It is comparable in shape and form to other mini commanders.

However, where it falls flat on its face is the upgrades. Namely, every mini commander gets both stat increases and new abilities with the upgrades allowing them to scale into the late game more.

However, Autarch gets neither and the only new ability is the Shield, which conflicts heavily with its high energy usage leap and FoF. Other upgrades are the melee and ranged set which are neither something to write home about.

My suggestion would be to add something ooomph to all of its upgrades or change them in some shape or form.

Executioner blade:
- Autarch gains the blade and 20% passive total damage reduction taken. It is pretty fair considering that the autarch is stuck the base hp values+ levels and it has to get into melee to do anything with this setup

Energy shield:
- Ability fundamentally changed.
- No longer gives the autarch the bubble.
- increases Autarch energy pool by 50 and energy regen by 2.5 e/s
- gives the Shielded ability, similar to the Terminator Librarian from the GKs

Melta gun:
- Added a vehicle snare ability. This is fair considering that it is not really a high dps weapon and that it is tier3.

Thoughts?

[egewithin]

So a sub commander who falls from the skyes and brings 5 or 6 plasma grenades right on my head is not good enough? Ooooookeeytoo!

Why Autarch needs to be better or as good as the other sub comanders? Do they even better? Do eldar needs sonething like that? Every new future came with Elite mod has a " need " so we need reasons more than upgrades.

[Dark Riku]

However, where it falls flat on its face is the upgrades. Namely, every mini commander gets both stat increases and new abilities with the upgrades allowing them to scale into the late game more.

Those other mini commanders fall short where the autarch does not.
Out of the gate the Autarch has an aura, inspires, can buff allies, comes in from the global bar anywhere on the field with 4 grenades, has 7.5 speed, ...

Other upgrades are the melee and ranged set which are neither something to write home about.

64.29 DPS power melee and 33.6 DPS melta damage not good on a 7.5 speed mini commander who can leap as well? :/
Giving her a passive flat 20% damage reduction with the executioner would not be fair at all. She already can easily engage with her leap and speed.
Adding a passive snare to the fusiongun would be overkill.

[Lesten]

I love the Autarch. I recently started playing again and now I rarely go a game without calling in an Autarch. She's great and very fun to use (though take your eyes off her for a second and she goes down sooo quickly).

• I don't think her weapons need a buff. Giving her a vehicle snare with the melta gun would make her into a super quick ASM and Fire Dragons combined (also there would be no reason to get Warp Spider haywire grenade).

• I agree about the energy shield. You absolutely need the energy for the jump and FoF, and the shield drains her energy so quickly that you can't use either of it. An activated ability that gives her some form of damage resist for a short time for a fixed amount of energy would probably be more worthwhile and suit her better.
(I don't remember what the Terminator Librarian shield ability does, so can't comment on that.)

• Wouldn't mind seeing minor stat bonuses linked to the weapon/shield upgrades. Other subcommanders often get more health or energy (or regen) along with an ability. Not really necessary though and might require a small cost increase for the upgrades.

• Skyleap for 80 energy is a bit steep. I get that you shouldn't be able to use it after the regular jump, but maybe 60-70 would be better. That would help leveled up autarchs.

• At first I thought that the 150 red to call her down again after the skyleap was too much, but it's a decent mini-nuke so it's probably fine.

[Gorbles]

Pretty sure it's four grenades, firatwithin, though I haven't done Eldar MP for some time. That said, for reference:

From retail 3.19 to ELITE 2.3.0:

Code: Select all

 Health decreased from 750 to 700
 Speed decreased from 8 to 7.5
 Call-in grenade damage decreased from 180 to 110
 Call-in grenade damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 5 to 4.5
 Call-in grenades now stun infantry units for 3 seconds
 Leap energy cost increased from 30 to 55
 Scorpion Shield (passive aura) ranged damage reduction increased from 10% to 15%
 Fusion Gun damage increased 60 to 72

(the damage decrease but hefty stun time is a nice compromise, I like it)

That said none of the changes directly counter Choko's premise that the Autarch is incredibly Energy-dependent, which is true. The lolshield build in vanilla was mostly due to ludicrous speed and uptime on Leap, ELITE by the changes above completely wreck the effectiveness of the shield in most situations because you're always going to want to prioritise Leap.

I don't think Fusion Gun needs changes, but energy efficiency and the shield build in general could do with attention.

EDIT:

Also dismissing the other sub-commanders as lacking in comparison is faulty; the Autarch lacks the direct abilities that come with, say, the Weirdboy and Librarian (remember how fun he was in vanilla? ELITE has made a range of changes to keep him in check, which again, is fair). The Autarch, once deployed, is a very passive / straightforward damage-dealing unit. His buff is directly tied to his Leap, which means he has to choose between escape potential and buff potential (especially in ELITE given the increased Energy cost).

The Autarch is in a better place than he was in vanilla, in my opinion, apart from Energy-dependence, but then again that could be a common theme throughout ELITE, I don't know.

[GrootOpperhoofd]

Weirdboy like the Zoanthrope, is not a sub commander.

[Thunderhost]

Weirdboy like the Zoanthrope, is not a sub commander.

Weirdboy, like all other subcommanders, is capped at 1. Zoanthrope is not. Neither does Zoanthrope have upgrades available.

[GrootOpperhoofd]

Weirdboy like the Zoanthrope, is not a sub commander.

Weirdboy, like all other subcommanders, is capped at 1. Zoanthrope is not. Neither does Zoanthrope have upgrades available.

It doesn't have sub-commander armor unlike all other sub-commanders.

[Lesten]

Weirdboy like the Zoanthrope, is not a sub commander.

Weirdboy, like all other subcommanders, is capped at 1. Zoanthrope is not. Neither does Zoanthrope have upgrades available.

It doesn't have sub-commander armor unlike all other sub-commanders.

It's just "commander armor" and that doesn't determine whether or not it's a sub-commander. I think the fact that they are single entity units, capped at one and "character-like" (and not vehicles or super-units, though an Avatar is arguably also a commander) is a better definition than what armor they wear. E.g. I'd say Vindicare Assassin is a sub-commander and he doesn't have commander armor.

[Dark Riku]

It doesn't have sub-commander armor unlike all other sub-commanders.

The weirdboy is a sub commander.
There is no such thing as sub-commander armor.

[GrootOpperhoofd]

Weirdboy like the Zoanthrope, is not a sub commander.

Weirdboy, like all other subcommanders, is capped at 1. Zoanthrope is not. Neither does Zoanthrope have upgrades available.

Neurothrope doens't have any upgrades either (is capped at 1 and still not a sub commander ).

Weirdboy, like all other subcommanders, is capped at 1. Zoanthrope is not. Neither does Zoanthrope have upgrades available.

It doesn't have sub-commander armor unlike all other sub-commanders.

It's just "commander armor" and that doesn't determine whether or not it's a sub-commander. I think the fact that they are single entity units, capped at one and "character-like" (and not vehicles or super-units, though an Avatar is arguably also a commander) is a better definition than what armor they wear. E.g. I'd say Vindicare Assassin is a sub-commander and he doesn't have commander armor.

Fair enough although I wouldn't count VA as sub commanders

It doesn't have sub-commander armor unlike all other sub-commanders.

The weirdboy is a sub commander.

No he's not

[ChokoBambus]

Well, Melta IS a tier3 upgrade and it is quite expensive and boring tbh. Maybe a melta on such a mobile unit would be to much, but perhaps an other perk.

Like, Melta gun buffs her aura to also increase the damage of some units around her.

The shield upgrade change would in fact address her lack of energy by giving her bonus energy and energy regeneration AND the timed shield ability like someone here mentioned. It could also be targeted to affect either hero or a squad. Which is something every other mini commander gets.

So perhaps to reiterate:

Energy shield - bonus mana pool, mana regen and a targeted timed damage mitigation shield ability
Executioner - increases the HP of the autarch by a certain amount
Melta - increases the damage of the sorounding units by XX%

[Adila]

Autarch is in a good state in my opinion, only thing I would like to see is to decrease the call back mana cost, 80 is a bit to much, and you will rarely consider to do it anyways.

[Forestradio]

From retail 3.19 to ELITE 2.3.0

Elite is currently on patch 2.5, if you want to know the correct differences just go to the elite Codex and read up on them.
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/autarch

Giving Sanctuary to the Autarch would be rofl bonkers OP, that ability is already an engagement winner if used properly and also changes melee fights from brawls into complete one-sided roflstomps, especially since it also knocks down terminators.

The only counterplay to it is that the libby can't just charge into your lines and throw up the bubble, its main use is defensive and also during important melee fights like I mentioned above, but giving it to a fast unit that can also leap would break lots of things.

T3 Lictor, weirdboy, vindicare assassin, and neurothrope are all subcommanders, they are subcommanders with infantry class armor (this is done on purpose in order to make them more vulnerable to piercing_pvp and melee_pvp), a subcommander does not necessarily have to have commander armor.

If Autarch is deemed underperforming it could get a population/upkeep decrease (from 7 to 5 and from ~25 to ~20 respectively) but I really don't think it needs it, and I'm also inclined to agree with Adila that the skyleap could use an energy cost decrease just to make repeated autarch grenade barrages a bit more attractive.

And Adila made good use of the autarch in the recent 2v2 tournament afterall =)

[Cyris]

I'm still ramping up on Autarch usage, but I won't let that stop me from adding one note. I do think the Energy Shield is a crummy upgrade, though it's prolly the only thing I really don't like about her. Autarch has energy issues out of the gate, so it's real hard to justify the shield. Finding yourself without enough energy to use Leap or Fleet cuts down on her usefulness a lot, and as mentioned the 80 price-tag on Skyleap is already daunting.

Assuming you keep 55 energy in reserve for Leap, then a perfectly microed shield has 45 energy to work with, or 180 bonus health for 75/25. I'm uncertain if it grants knockback immunity, but it does combo nicely with FS Spirit Stones or energy regen aura.

Does she need buffs? Eh, I dunno. No strong feelings on that.

[Gorbles]

From retail 3.19 to ELITE 2.3.0

Elite is currently on patch 2.5, if you want to know the correct differences just go to the elite Codex and read up on them.
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/autarch

Appreciate that link, figured I was missing something when people mentioned Inspire, though would love it if the changelog was more up-to-date, too Realise that's a manpower thing, though.

[Dark Riku]

The weirdboy is a sub commander.

No he's not

You have 5 posts. Do some research before posting stupid things like this. Educate yourself --> https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/glossary
Anything capped at 1, not being a vehicles or super unit is a sub commander.

Giving Sanctuary to the Autarch would be rofl bonkers OP, that ability is already an engagement winner if used properly and also changes melee fights from brawls into complete one-sided roflstomps, especially since it also knocks down terminators.

+1. For some reason I thought the suggestion was giving the BC's ward ability. Which is probably also not a good idea with all the stacking Eldar can do.


Don't feel strong any way or the other about reducing the energy for skyleap. Could go down in energy cost.

[Lichtbringer]

While I don't want to speek about the Autarchs balance, I agree that something about her feels off.

Namely the Upgrades.

The Better Spear is not very usefull when she is on her own. She still loses against meleesquads. In big fights she gets focused down so quick that her dps doesn't really matter. And it's boring^^ Just doubles her damage. (It's good for retreatkilling).

The Shield has obvious conflicts with the Jump energy. But it is kinda needed. But then you can't use jump anymore.

The Fusiongun is in the weirdest place. I would consider it more often if it didn't make her melee totally useless. I guess atleast it's cheap.
Maybe it could be T2. Giving it a snare would add to her "support" role. And you could focus her down to stop it. Honestly, in what Situation do you want the Fusiongun? Against an enemy Manticore probably. In T3 it is probably leveled. So it takes quite some time to kill it (Autarch and Manticore at level 4 it takes 14,3 seconds without reararmor hits....). Does often not work and puts your Autarch in high risk to be killed in retreat.
You could get it as bonus AV....

Oh, and when you get Shield+Spear she costs 500/100.

[egewithin]

For energyshield ; you have to make a choice. You want to be tanky or a jumping melee pain? You can't have them both in the same place which is nice IMO. But in only melee combat Autarch is not very good. She is like ASM. Very good for tieing up melee squads but not so good vs actual melee squads.

Fisuon gun is still weird but only that is. If we want to change something ; we have to know what is wrong with it.

[Lesten]

The Autarch in and of herself is fine, I think. It's the upgrades that are a little off.

I don't think a jumping support sub-commander is meant to solo even light vehicles, so the fusion gun's damage is fine.
But you sacrifice melee damage and effectively inspiration (not actually, but you're not gonna kill much with it) for a decent damage fusion gun for 80 req 20 power. That's not really a good trade. Sure, it can be useful, but I think the Autarch should be more focused on her support role.

So how about ONE of these changes for the fusion gun?
a) Reduce cost to ~70/15.
b) Let her keep some of her melee prowess even with the fusion gun.
c) Make the fusion gun boost her aura and give allied units +1% ranged damage (or +2%, whatever). Would fit her support role much better. (Could be done for the executioner as well, but with melee damage instead, though that weapon is good enough as it is.)

The energy shield is a luxury purchase at best, one you won't even be able to use in most cases. Even with the shield she's not tanky anyway. Like I said before, replace it with something actually useful like an activated damage reduction ability or a support ability. Make it cost 50-70 energy so she can't jump and use it immediately at level 1. Alternatively reduce the cost of the shield (but that won't really help with the fact that you will hardly ever be able to use it), because not being able to jump as often (or at all) is not worth 75/25.

So my suggestion for the Autarch is:
1. Slight buff to fusion gun (cheaper, more melee damage or improved aura)
2. Replace energy shield with something else
3. Reduce energy cost of Skyleap to 60-70

[Ace of Swords]

Autarch is fine and so are her upgrades, the energy shield becomes great with a few levels and definitely helps her survive T3, the spear is pretty much a no brainer, I don't use the melta a lot, but it's useful, I just don't see the autarch as AV in my builds.

[GrootOpperhoofd]

The weirdboy is a sub commander.

No he's not

You have 5 posts. Do some research before posting stupid things like this. Educate yourself --> https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/glossary
Anything capped at 1, not being a vehicles or super unit is a sub commander.

No, sub commanders are units with commander armor, obviously. What the hell defines a super unit anyway lol? Neurothrope is a super unit if anything, it's in tier 3 and has no upgrades. There is no research to be done, it's all about definition. And there's none.

[Dark Riku]

You didn't look at the link did you?

[GrootOpperhoofd]

You didn't look at the link did you?

Now I did Ok, I was wrong fuk u all

[Lesten]

You didn't look at the link did you?

Now I did Ok, I was wrong fuk u all

The definition of sub-commander is a very strange thing to get upset about

[Atlas]

Keep it clean bros. This has been mostly good discussion.

[Tex]

Spear gives her massive killing potential. It needs absolutely no love at all stats wise due to the nature of her high speed potential. If there were any buff at all going to this thing, I would reduce the cost by 5 power. That's it!

The shield is of course largely useless. Don't buy this unless you plan on using the autarch as a melee counter. It becomes useful then when you are off roaming and need to be able to beat something like KCSM in melee or w/e. If it doesn't provide kb immunity, it should.

The fusion gun I agree on, its pretty crappy simply because of the poor timing on it. Having to wait until T3 to use it is pretty bunk. The stats on it seem fine, I think it could be buffed so that it offers a significant energy regen bonus to the autarch.

The grenades are already so devastating, I feel like sky leap really doesn't need love. If you plan to use it, great, but I'm not sure I want to see an autarch leap all over me, inspire banshees to win a brawl, and then sky leap to empty out a garrison on the other side of the map in a matter of 30 seconds or so.

Edit: I was just thinking about the stat adding that other sub commanders have with upgrades, and I dunno... I guess it kind of would make sense for the autarch to get a bonus of 100hp with her shield upgrade...

[PhatE]

Yeah the Autarch is pretty decent as is. Any change to her or her wargears will take some serious convincing.

She does a lot and making her even better is bringing her into the OP territory. The spear is really good and the shield is also really awesome, in my opinion anyway. Eldar are pretty dependant on shurikens so in theory you would have at least one or two especially as the WSE making the fusion gun not really a problem being in t3. I think the reason for this is because there aren't really any heavy tanks in t2 bar dreads. Fire dragons, brightlance, WL, singing spear, haywire, falcons, etc.

Personally she's not really a thing that I get but a good example is yaay in one of the MRT's. He had really good autarch usage and it did a lot for him ending up winning him the tournament in the end (fact check plz =D)

The Autarch is pretty noice.

[ChokoBambus]

I am not arguing that Autarch is not great in its vanilla state, I am arguing that:

- shield does not combo well with her high energy cost abilities
- she does not act as a force multiplier the way other UPGRADED mini commanders do


Quite honestly extra total energy and energy regen on the shield upgrade is a must. Also, skyleap should cost no energy.

[Dark Riku]

I am not arguing that Autarch is not great in its vanilla state, I am arguing that:

- shield does not combo well with her high energy cost abilities
- she does not act as a force multiplier the way other UPGRADED mini commanders do


Quite honestly extra total energy and energy regen on the shield upgrade is a must. Also, skyleap should cost no energy.

People already argumented against those...
Shield is good for counter initiating. Meaning staying in the back, not using jump.
She does act like a force multiplier like other sub commanders do...