Dawn of War Codex

Had a thought about sniper damage (Rangers and Scout snipers). First off, I think snipers are more reasonable now that they don't one-shot everything, but it would be nice with something that improved their T2 and T3 performance.

My suggestions is that sniper rifle damage should increase much more with their level. That would help them scale better into T2 and T3 and reward you for keeping them alive and useful. As it is right now, if you look at the numbers, sniper damage scales less with levels than most units' health, which actually makes them worse and worse over the course of the game. (I only use guardsman as an example, the principle is the same for pretty much every infantry unit.)

Level 1 Guardsman health (per model): 100
Level 1 Ranger damage (per shot): 80 (80% of guardsman health) (16 dps)
Level 1 Scout snipers damage (per shot): 90 (90% of guardsman health) (13,85 dps)

Level 2 Guardsman health (per model): 115
Level 2 Ranger damage (per shot): 84 (73% of guardsman health)
Level 2 Scout snipers damage (per shot): 94,5 (82,2% of guardsman health)

Level 3 Guardsman health (per model): 132
Level 3 Ranger damage (per shot): 88 (66,7% of guardsman health)
Level 3 Scout snipers damage (per shot): 99 (75% of guardsman health)

Level 4 Guardsman health (per model): 152
Level 4 Ranger damage (per shot): 92,8 (61% of guardsman health)
Level 4 Scout snipers damage (per shot): 104,4 (68,7% of guardsman health) (the only time you can one-shot a level 1 guardsman model)

This shows that snipers actually become LESS effective if both them and their target is leveled. It should be the other way around and level 3-4 snipers should at least be able to one-shot level 1 guardsmen. Sure, you can buff damage with one thing or another (but you can also buff health and damage resistance), but even without buffs the percent of health per shot should increase with levels, not decrease (or at the very least it should remain steady).

Just to make it clear, I have no issue with level 1 snipers vs level 1 infantry and I think Rangers' and Scout snipers' utilities are fine. It's just their poor damage scaling that is a problem.

Thoughts?

Edit: I have an alternative (additional) suggestion as well (I think someone suggested something similar in another thread): a T3 upgrade that give snipers one additional sniper rifle. That would make them useful even against T2 and T3 infantry. Snipers are often best in pairs anyway, but with such an upgrade you could actually get by with one squad more often, losing one of the squads wouldn't be the end of the world and it would be more appealing to actually get a late-game sniper squad.

Good points!

Actually, i think that even 90 damage on lvl 1 would be fine

If these number are correct, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it's basically a "rangers are an utility option, not a damage dealer"-verdict. That does seem to be problematic. Being able to oneshot a GM-model and at least being able to put pressure on other infantry models with higher health seems reasonable to me.
@Lesten Personally I find your "more longrifles" idea good, but I'm not sure whether that addresses the basic issues with t1 snipers..

My only experience using snipers is playing as TM and getting 2x scout snipers, and I do notice that their ability to deal damage fails to scale upwards with the health gained by squads through leveling or upgrades.

With that said, I would rather the Elite mod team err on the side of snipers being slightly under-powered than over-powered, since sniper damage was one of the most toxic elements of retail game play, back in the day. 1-shot kill snipers led to unidirectional fun, where only the person using them was enjoying his/herself.

A side comment about levelling, I don't know for scouts, but for rangers I suppose their ability energy costs were previously tailored to their levelling speed. But the fact they simply kill much less models alone to the benefit of controlling them or "putting pressure" means they actually level waaaay slower. And thus keeping the same energy cost for abilities than before (iirc) is unfair. That means their utility scaling late game through more holofield and long scouting than actual shooting is really reduced, and they die easily by not being able to use FoF as often.

@Lesten You might be on to something here. I suggest you do the same for HI and commanders though as snipers are most effective versus them.
Caeltos will have more to think about that way. Doesn't sound like too bad of an idea as long as the damage doesn't go overboard again

@ Thibix Magus The energy is fine. You gain exp for contributing dmg to a killed model btw.

Dark Riku wrote:@ Thibix Magus The energy is fine. You gain exp for contributing dmg to a killed model btw.

Well it might be fine, hard for me to tell ingame or to remember 2.3, but precisely because you share xp for model kills, the previous rangers had much more opportunity to kill models alone, thus to level faster, isn't it correct ? So I suppose the initial developpers adjusted the energy cost according to leveling speed ? Maybe they still level at the same speed for other reasons though, but I would think it is an important difference, just like jump troops. Anyway this is part of a reflexion about rangers lack of scaling that is being made often these days, didn't want to derail the OP too much

I'll do a comparison with a few other infantry units and come up with a more concrete suggestion when I have the time (later this week).

Quick question first though: if level 2 multiplies damage by 1.05 and sniper damage is multiplied by 1.3 vs heavy armor, do you multiply each instance at a time or do you add them together first or how does that work?

Thibix Magnus wrote:A side comment about levelling, I don't know for scouts, but for rangers I suppose their ability energy costs were previously tailored to their levelling speed. But the fact they simply kill much less models alone to the benefit of controlling them or "putting pressure" means they actually level waaaay slower. And thus keeping the same energy cost for abilities than before (iirc) is unfair. That means their utility scaling late game through more holofield and long scouting than actual shooting is really reduced, and they die easily by not being able to use FoF as often.

I suppose if their damage would scale better they might level somewhat easier (at least from level 2-3) and that should help them a bit with their energy management. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to slightly lower energy costs on at least one of their abilities (I practically never use FoF on Rangers these days).

Oddnerd wrote:With that said, I would rather the Elite mod team err on the side of snipers being slightly under-powered than over-powered, since sniper damage was one of the most toxic elements of retail game play, back in the day. 1-shot kill snipers led to unidirectional fun, where only the person using them was enjoying his/herself.

I don't think the balance would break if snipers did consistent damage against leveled enemies as they themselves leveled. Even if their damage would scale better it wouldn't really result in any one-shotting snipers unless (a) the sniper is higher level than the target AND (b) the target is a high-model, low-HP unit (and possibly not even then).

It is multiplicative, the damage would be 1.05 times 1.3 equals 1.365.

Snipers be fine.
The thing is they are a "you snooze you lose" unit. The more the game progresses the less attention people pay to small details, and not paying attention for just long enough causes you to lose squads. Simply through player fatigue, increased multitasking and, well, snipers actually leveling and having cloak - they are more than well effective come mid/late game.

I've done an extensive chart of sniper damage scaling vs various units and the pattern is pretty clear. If both units are leveled, the sniper becomes less and less useful.

Most infantry units level their health in one of two patterns:

Lvl 1 / lvl 2 / lvl 3 / lvl4
>> 1 / 1,15 / 1,32 / 1,52

OR

Lvl 1 / lvl 2 / lvl 3 / lvl4
>> 1 / 1,11 / 1,21 / 1,33

Whereas most units (including snipers) scale their ranged damage like so:

Lvl 1 / lvl 2 / lvl 3 / lvl4
>> 1 / 1,05 / 1,10 / 1,16

For most ranged units this isn't a problem, because all of them have the same weapons (or they suppress/do aoe damage) and the extra health compensates for it well enough. But for snipers this poor scaling really hurts them in T2 and T3 as they level up, especially since they're supposed to be able to at least put some pressure on enemy units (even if they can't one-shot models).

Take a scout sniper shooting at another scout squad. Here's how much health in percent the hit model will lose with each shot:
Both level 1: 64,3%
Both level 2: 58,7% (already a drop in damage that shouldn't be there)
Both level 3: 53,5%
Both level 4: 49% (now it even takes 3 shots to get a single model. You can say, "well, it's level 4 scouts, they should be able to take a beating". Sure, but it's also level 4 snipers shooting at them).

Sniper is level 4 but target is level 1: 74,6% (not really much difference from being shot by a level 1 sniper (14,4 more damage))
Sniper is level 1 but target is level 4: 42,3% (now this I don't mind, low-leveled snipers shouldn't be as much of a threat to level 4 squads)

You can take ANY infantry squad and the same thing happens. If the target unit level their health on the lower variant (like Tacs, CSM or Wraithguard), then the difference isn't that big, but there's still a drop-off in damage if both squads level. Here's a scout sniper shooting at a CSM squad (again, % of model health lost per shot):
Both level 1: 36,0%
Both level 2: 34,3%
Both level 3: 32,7%
Both level 4: 31,3%
Sniper level 4, CSM level 1: 41,8% (only 18,72 more damage than at level 1, vs a 325 hp model)

To summarize
Problem: Snipers scale poorly into T2 and T3. Unlike other ranged squads, snipers suffer from ranged damage scaling less than health with levels.
Solution: Increase sniper damage scaling with levels (preferably to 1 / 1,10 / 1,21 / 1,33 -or- 1 / 1,15 / 1,32 / 1,52). Snipers shouldn't become LESS effective at sniping as they and the enemy units level up, they should become more effective or at the very least stay as effective. Would also make it more rewarding to preserve your T1 snipers to late game.

I can't attach a pdf file so I'll just post the sheet as pictures, so you can see for yourself. Unless stated otherwise, I don't count any upgrades or special abilities. (Did it in a hurry so I might have made some typos or added a few wrong numbers, but most of it should be correct.) (Sorry for the long post, I can send pdf or excel sheet to anyone interested.)

Below it I'll post a suggestion where the damage is scaled better (1 / 1,15 / 1,32 / 1,52), so you can determine for yourself it is unreasonable.
I can also send the excel sheet I used if anyone is interested in that. Then you can edit the damage multipliers for levels and armor type, and test it against units I haven't tried myself. And I can right of the bat tell you that this wouldn't really turn snipers into one-shotters again. Only high level snipers might be able to one-shot models in weaker, unupgraded level 1 squads. And remember that level 1 sniper damage is completely unchanged.

CURRENT SNIPER DAMAGE SCALING








SUGGESTION FOR SNIPER DAMAGE SCALING

Lol bro you've overdone it. I mean I'm not even sure Caeltos wasn't already aware of his pattern, I for sure was but do not consider it as the main issue.

Still well done I suppose.

Asmon wrote:Lol bro you've overdone it. I mean I'm not even sure Caeltos wasn't already aware of his pattern, I for sure was but do not consider it as the main issue.

Still well done I suppose.

I like overdoing things. Though this didn't take that long and once I had done one unit it was pretty easy to do the rest seeing as it's all calculated automatically, so it wasn't much of a problem
And I figured people would have said "you forgot this unit, therefore your whole argument is invalid", so I figured I might as well be thorough.
Also, even if some people are aware of it, others are not. I was somewhat aware that damage scaled less than health with levels, but I hadn't thought of how this hurts sniper more than other units until I did the numbers. I mean, looking at the current numbers... this is not how it should be. That should be clear even if you don't think it's a major concern.

Lesten wrote:

Asmon wrote:Lol bro you've overdone it. I mean I'm not even sure Caeltos wasn't already aware of his pattern, I for sure was but do not consider it as the main issue.

Still well done I suppose.

I like overdoing things. Though this didn't take that long and once I had done one unit it was pretty easy to do the rest seeing as it's all calculated automatically, so it wasn't much of a problem
And I figured people would have said "you forgot this unit, therefore your whole argument is invalid", so I figured I might as well be thorough.
Also, even if some people are aware of it, others are not. I was somewhat aware that damage scaled less than health with levels, but I hadn't thought of how this hurts sniper more than other units until I did the numbers. I mean, looking at the current numbers... this is not how it should be. That should be clear even if you don't think it's a major concern.

I have heard that players who use snipers have lestening blows against their opponent.

Still feel like the snipers are the most dumbest design choice in a game solely revolved on unit preservation and them being available to 2 races only.

Yeah but you've been away for too long now mate, you're too noob. Cannot see the whole picture

Carnevour wrote:Still feel like the snipers are the most dumbest design choice in a game solely revolved on unit preservation and them being available to 2 races only.

Everything balancewise aside, this makes not much sense

Sniper's do not threaten unit preservation, because they have absolutly no wipe potential. They bleed(ed) you.

And them being only available to 2 races is not so shocking to me considering Eldar have no Jumpunit in T1 (and only the Autarch in T2). I like asymetrical design and balance. Would be boring if every race was the same.

And atleast DoW2 snipers do not oneshot every model regardless of it's health. A pair of CoH2 Snipers can really threaten to wipe 4 man squads. Thats not funny anymore

Dark Riku wrote:I suggest you do the same for HI and commanders though as snipers are most effective versus them.

It's 1.3 versus heavy armour and 1.5 vs super heavy. Does no extra damage to commanders.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =sniper_hi

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:It's 1.3 versus heavy armour and 1.5 vs super heavy. Does no extra damage to commanders.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =sniper_hi

Snipers used to do 0.6 instead of 1.0 versus commanders
They are very effective at putting pressure on commanders now.