Ranged Damage Output Power Creep

[Dullahan]

So one thing that has bugged me about Elite mod for years is the "ranged DPS arms race". All of the new ranged units do exceptional ranged damage compared to the bog standard units. This has been tweaked here and there over the years, but in general the average ranged DPS output has gone up significantly. For example, Grey Knights is full of this sort of ridiculous damage output, with inquisitorial stormtroopers making catachans and scouts with shotguns look like chumps. (Mobility and utilityof scouts, no damage fall off at range like catachans.) [May be outdated info, this was the case last time I played]

It has significantly increased the lethality of the game in a big way. I think this is why we've seen consistent cost reductions on T1 units. Almost every faction has seen requisition cost reductions on their base units with Elite mod. Heretics, both marines, Sluggas, Guardians, banshees etc.

I think it's worth considering the damage profiles of the new ranged units in relation to the old ones and adjusting them to be more on par. Grey Knights are particularly egregious about this. (I think Strike squads in particular are problematic. Equivalent if not better ranged damage output than tacs and CSM's, but way better in melee due to their ridiculous special attacks.) [Looked at tool tip, strike squad deal more damage than eternal war CSM or kraken round tacs against heavy inf. Lmao]

[Ace of Swords]

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage legs

[Forestradio]

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage chainaxes

fixed that for ya

[GuruSkippy]

Almost every faction has seen requisition cost reductions on their base units with Elite mod. Heretics, both marines, Sluggas, Guardians, banshees etc.

sluggas ?
sluggas still cost 270req, The reduction was applied on stormboyz, not sluggas.

[Dullahan]

Almost every faction has seen requisition cost reductions on their base units with Elite mod. Heretics, both marines, Sluggas, Guardians, banshees etc.

sluggas ?
sluggas still cost 270req, The reduction was applied on stormboyz, not sluggas.

I'm not sure where on the timeline sluggas went from 300 to 270, perhaps that was in vanilla. I thought it was one of those changes that started in Elite mod and got rolled into retail back when they are being worked in side by side.

[GuruSkippy]

I honestly don't remember the slugga cost changes in retail, if there was some.
And I have no idea for Elite mod history.

[egewithin]

Hormagaunts got that decrease.

[Torpid]

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage chainaxes

fixed that for ya

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage legs

Why do you both insist on trolling the forums? If, as the ridiculous response suggests, you find the OP ridiculous, please elaborate why or ignore it.

You're contributing nothing to the discussion, distracting others from appropriately responding and persuading those who would to not bother.

[Torpid]

@ OP - GK shouldn't even be remotely considered in terms of their statistical features in comparison with the other races because they play nothing like them. On paper the BC and SS look incredibly OP. In practice. They suck. Especially in 1v1. In 3v3 I don't know... They still lack a lot of fundamentals that other races get like SUTs, tanks, artillery etc

Concerning other things like fire dragons, dark rapers, flash gitz, kasrkin and chaos terminators. I don't really see your point with the OP tbh. FDs are short-range only and they are quite a unique unit. It's hard to comment on them as there is little to compare them to.

I must admit I don't really like the strength of autocannons in elite. They feel too strong. Too high dps. But chaos terminators aren't really any worse than SM terminators ever were. Gitz, well, and kasrkin (which have got quite gimped since their first few incarnations), they just feel like T3 ranged units to me. Which isn't particularly overwhelming. Certainly not a power creep. I mean thye just feel like a unit that does the appropriate amount of dps that you would expct it to do given that it is primarily a ranged anti-infantry unit in the late game. Same applies to dark reapers really, they're similar to TCSM. Little more dps/cost/pop ratio, however, they are more fragile sooooo...

I don't see your point with ranged damage output power creep in elite :S

Also, I don't think melee has ever been stronger in 1v1 than it is in elite right now. For example I always get banshees vs IG now. That's just one example. Horms/sluggas/shees all perform way better in loads of MUs than retail now both due to balance changes internal to their respective races and balance changes external to them.

[Ace of Swords]

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage chainaxes

fixed that for ya

Obvious solution is to give scouts splash damage legs

Why do you both insist on trolling the forums? If, as the ridiculous response suggests, you find the OP ridiculous, please elaborate why or ignore it.

You're contributing nothing to the discussion, distracting others from appropriately responding and persuading those who would to not bother.

https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... 122#p47122

Because stupid people deserve stupid answers, if you get me on a good day you'll have an explanation as of why ranged units need to be stronger than melee ones in general and what role melee units cover in this game and generally talking right now there are not ranged units that largely overshadow melee ones outside of autocannons being the usual braindead anti-all with too high dps.

But then again, apparently dullhan can't make up his mind whenever melee units are OP or UP.

[Forestradio]

Why do you both insist on trolling the forums?

Because you already pointed out why he's wrong in your very next post, which is pretty much spot on.

Also, retail was way way way WAY more lethal than elite (from what I hear from talking with a lot of players who were very good at retail), full of bullshit things like retreat knockbacks on charge abilities that made bcs/fexes/charging units insanely good at wiping, and also AoE powers like LTBG and CBB (lol at Toilailee getting this nerfed) and cloud were way more powerful and could easily destroy armies better than some retail nukes.

And then there's the 50% base reduction aura in elite which makes it incredibly hard to baserape someone properly unless you are way way way outplaying them.

None of the new ranged units put into elite are op anyways, reapers aren't, gitz aren't, kasrkin aren't, FD were and their current state is still up for evaluation, but even so if FD are wiping all your infantry you're doing something wrong.

tl;dr OP is completely wrong and doesn't have half of its information right

[Atlas]

Why do you both insist on trolling the forums? If, as the ridiculous response suggests, you find the OP ridiculous, please elaborate why or ignore it.

You're contributing nothing to the discussion, distracting others from appropriately responding and persuading those who would to not bother.

I agree with Servant's sentiments. Post something constructive, or don't post anything at all imo. The argument that the post is justified because Servant already covered the bases falls flat when you realize that Servant's comments came later. Only warning.