SM Vanguard

[Guilliman]

Aside from the fact they look awesome, do people consider them worth it? I have been on the receiving end of them and have to say they seem to kick ass. I have been using them more and find they tear via alot of things but had a few questions:

1. I assume the are all armed with power weapons so would rip through infantry and HI. How do they fare against SHI (termis)?
2. The squad leader has a TH, I assume this is more for looks? Does it do more knock back?
3. How does it perform against vehicles?

Anything else special with them?

Thanks!

[Torpid]

They're pretty damn amazing to say the least. Although they're not quite like ASM because despite them having more hp, in t3 it turns out that their hp is less than average for a melee squad. But they do tonnes of dps - they can beat lv4 shees 1v1 with good ability usage AT LEVEL 1!

Treat them like khorne csm with jumppacks and good abilities. Don't treat them like t1 asm that can jump into 3x shootas force off a squad, kill a few more models and retreat without losses.

Also the thunderhammer is not just for looks, not only does it do as much damage as the power claw model - 45dps, it also gets the tracking 360 degrees special that the force commander's thunderhammer gets. So that can really turn melee brawls since it can knock over a whole squad on its own. Then the two power sword models do 30dps themselves.

They are niche because you rarely want 2 jump squads as SM or a late game jump squad (As you can use vehicles/plasma devs to counter suppression and the like) but sometimes they are just perfect. And vanguard are a lot lot better than default assault space marines, so it's a very viable and real option for the SM late game. And one that the apo/tm can get to give their melee force more oomph. And for 0 red!

As far as vs SHI is concerned, well, they are power melee, so they do well against SHI. But they obviously get owned by

Vanguard will beat ranged terminators and ogryns 1v1 though. Which says a damn lot. These guys are really good. And alongside 2x plasma tacs to distract assault terminator variants the vanguards do enough damage to pressure your opponent to stop chasing the tacs and fight them - allowing your other damage sources to get more damage in. They do a real number to the GUO/avatar too, but just remember they aren't going to be as durable as your asm likely will after a few levels.

[Black Relic]

Vanguard are pretty good. The power fist which wasn't mentioned so far is also very good have sniping model due to its burst damage and is pretty good at killing a low HP vehicle if caught in a tight space which would then cause pathing issues for the vehicle.

Since I play Force Commander most of the time Vanguards are a pretty decent choice vs a lot of line ups. Due to the armor charge from dark reapers and fire dragons they can literally ripe them apart if given the chance. Although a good eldar player normally won't get you the chance but that option is still there.

Since I pop battle cry before I get into melee combat sometimes (for the damage increase) and throw FTE (that's a 35% damage buff) on the Vanguards they nearly grantee (unless knockback is laying around or it's a staggered jump) a kill on a set up team if they don't retreat before they get knocked back.

I do agree they are niche but not as much as you would expect or at least that's my opinion.

[Dark Riku]

For 1v1 they are not worth the high cost. You're better of with a predator at that stage of the game if you even went T3.

[Oddnerd]

They will shred heavy/super heavy infantry, but the loss of the melta bombs and the fact that you need to further purchase the painfully mediocre powerfist means that you are better spending your T3 resources on something else.

[Nurland]

Power fister upgrade is not really worth the cost. It should be like 50/10 or something.

Losing levels (melee skill and hp) is what hurts Vanguard effectiveness more than the loss on melta bums.

Melta bombs are the tradeoff here. More raw damage versus having a vehicle snare/flashbang.