Dawn of War Codex

I read the code again. And I see strange things.
Cadian T3 grenade launchers:


2 weapons with 60 damage each = 120 dmg
Heretics T1 grenade launchers:


4 weapons with 40 damage each = 160 dmg

The same price, the gap between T1 and T3, but less damage from the more expensive unit.
And what is balanced?

grenade launchers that knockback on contact

this? With radius of 3? It's should be joke. Even in a large blob, with a radius of 3, two grenades knockback 2-3 model.

Heretics barrage much better.

Launches a barrage of grenades at the designated location, each doing 25 grenade damage and weapon knockback in radius 6.

Don`t think that I have something else against Cadian. I like this unit. I warmly welcome the translation of his armor to heavy. In my opinion they are often not listed players for the IG. But with plasma gun, they become a nightmare for the heavy infantry. But these grenade launchers... As planned, they should counter the large blob of infantry, like Tyranids, Orcs, or IG reflection. But in fact, even two unit Cadian with grenade launchers,
can not really do anything. Neither against T1 shotas or T1 gvardsmans. Tyranids? Noup again.

Perhaps this question has been repeatedly discussed. And the more experienced players are now enlighten me, how did they actually use on the field grenade launcher Cadian Kasrkin Squad. I have never seen this in casts to.

To test more. Yap. Tripl Cadians do some work with its grenade launchers. But its 1500 rec and 240 power costs. Its more than Baneblade. More than 2 leman. How of players choose 3 Cadian questionable detachment, instead of confident tanks?

By the way it is often seen from players for IG, even when they enemy has tons of anti tank, they continue to persistently build Leman and merge them. Why you do that? Why ignore Cadian?

_4ut_ wrote:To test more. Yap. Tripl Cadians do some work with its grenade launchers. But its 1500 rec and 240 power costs. Its more than Baneblade. More than 2 leman. How of players choose 3 Cadian questionable detachment, instead of confident tanks?

By the way it is often seen from players for IG, even when they enemy has tons of anti tank, they continue to persistently build Leman and merge them. Why you do that? Why ignore Cadian?

Because Kasrkins are just tanky guardmen with a shittier hellgun. If you need pieceing damage you pop out stormtroopers. If you need plasma you want regular guardmen.
And with the tone of support and repair IG can provide to their tanks, there is little reason not to spam them.
One may consider kasrkin over Leman because leman can't cap. And well, kasrkins are quite good at doing that.

they also continually knockback rather than having an activated ability that does this. that's a pretty big deal that you're overlooking and makes them even better at denying capping as well as harassing formations.

Heavy infantry anybody? Frag grenade and Krak grenade, Sergeant adds another 100 courage and faster capping trade to the squad. IF you know how to use them, they are far from shit.

Don't knock the passive knockback until you've used it to control nobs or other strong melee units. It pretty much is the sole reason you buy that upgrade.

Passive constant kb is a big deal.

Dark Riku wrote:Passive constant kb is a big deal.

Yes, I agree that it's a lot. But 2! grenades with scuad, with a radius of 3, its not to mach. Shooting in nobs, you do not
knock off them all down, some will continue to run, and so on with all the units. The radius of two grenades, too little is to be really useful. And this despite the fact The_Konvertant rights, and other functions of Kasrkin, duplicate other units.

Give me grenade launchers with range 55 and passive knockback every time. Even if the aoe is "just" radius 3 - it's constant knockback for free, i.e. no energy required.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Give me grenade launchers with range 55 and passive knockback every time. Even if the aoe is "just" radius 3 - it's constant knockback for free, i.e. no energy required.

And you do not mind that the damage they have less than the T1 units?
For example it would be normal for you if Council would do less damage than a banshee? Council also have knokback with lip, all balanced, why do they have more damage?
Even if there were three grenade launcher on the squad, it is 200 damage, that more than 160 from heretics and OM stormtroopers and it is more like a gun of T3 squad.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Give me grenade launchers

Take them. Come and play with them. Look how "good" they are working on the T3 for its price.

Well, if your sole metric for performance is damage, then yes, they are not as good as T1 Heretic grenade launchers maybe. Bututility plays a huge factor in this game as well. If you can manage to disrupt enemy troops and keep them from shooting at you, that is value right there. Damage isn't everything.

The only problem I have with grenade launchers is that unless you ground target those grenade launchers won't hit anything unless those units are already being controlled. Increase the speed of the grenades a bit and maybe the price by 25 req and you got me. But atm this isn't that great of a choice imo.

Let me repeat: disruption with range 55, heavy Infantry, two grenades.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:IF you know how to use them, they are far from shit.

Please, don't be discrete, say it right: "GIT. GUD. NOOB". And thank you for your input.

For those who doesn't realize what is to discuss here: Kasrkin cannot possibly compete with Leman Russ as t3 unit despite all the upgrade options. It's 525 req / 85 power squad with sergeant upgrade alone, make it 600 req / 105 power if you want to try out toy grenade launchers. Every time you have to choose between Leman Russ and Kasrkin you pick Leman Russ unless you need to cap something BADLY (and THEN you decide to use your commander for that purpose).

Kasrkin is not specialized enough to be "a counter unit" and they also lack direct raw firepower to be all-around "anti everything unit". All they have is their pathetic "faster capping" and "grenade launcher knockback" gimmick for A LOW PRICE OF 600 req / 105 pow! Kasrkin could be a Sternguard kind of t3 upgrade for Guardsmen squad or could be changed in a more narrow, specialized way. Other than that, if we need to kill something dead in t3 we just get a Leman Russ.

@ Noobus

The Squad gets the grenades by default, plus this discussion is about the grenade launcher upgrade. And I never said the squad was bad btw...

I am talking about the upgrade. So as I just said. increase the speed of the grenades from the launchers then they can actually hit something flush that isnt 25 range away. They move slow enough that you can move out of the way pretty easily since the knockback radius is small and they only hit reliably is when a unit is either being controlled or they aren't moving.

So again. Increase the upgrade cost by 25 req to have the grenades from the launchers travel faster so the constant disruption is more reliable since atm it isn't unless units are within 25 range, they are already being controlled or a units is just standing still. Because at the moment i can only see this upgrade being any good at the moment is vs a lot of set up teams.

Tarre wrote:

Adeptus Noobus wrote:IF you know how to use them, they are far from shit.

Please, don't be discrete, say it right: "GIT. GUD. NOOB". And thank you for your input.

For those who doesn't realize what is to discuss here: Kasrkin cannot possibly compete with Leman Russ as t3 unit despite all the upgrade options. It's 525 req / 85 power squad with sergeant upgrade alone, make it 600 req / 105 power if you want to try out toy grenade launchers. Every time you have to choose between Leman Russ and Kasrkin you pick Leman Russ unless you need to cap something BADLY (and THEN you decide to use your commander for that purpose).

Kasrkin is not specialized enough to be "a counter unit" and they also lack direct raw firepower to be all-around "anti everything unit". All they have is their pathetic "faster capping" and "grenade launcher knockback" gimmick for A LOW PRICE OF 600 req / 105 pow! Kasrkin could be a Sternguard kind of t3 upgrade for Guardsmen squad or could be changed in a more narrow, specialized way. Other than that, if we need to kill something dead in t3 we just get a Leman Russ.

100% agreed.

For those that cannot understand the above - kasrkin suck.

Don't judge them in isolation. And yes, their damage is pitiful with the GLs and no, the passive kb doesn't compensate for that. IG do not need knockback when they dominate most armies at range anyway as well as being extremely good vs melee. And if they have lots of melee why on Terra would you get kasrkin???

Black Relic wrote: Because at the moment i can only see this upgrade being any good at the moment is vs a lot of set up teams.

In which case you would never have gotten kasrkin in the first place. You would get spotter asap and then a leman with executioner. Perhaps a manticore too.

Tarre wrote:they also lack direct raw firepower to be all-around "anti everything unit"

And that's a good thing too, anti-everything units with good firepower are fucking bullshit as has been pointed out and shown many times in tournaments by some of the best players still playing this game.

Personally I think that the plasma gun upgrade is shittier than the GL one since it actually lowers the kasrkin weapon range to 38 when one of their perks is that their standard hellgun has above average weapon range, giving plasma/hell gun the same range would go a long way to making the plasma gun upgrade actually worth it. And I think that Fr33man would agree with me on that.

Forestradio wrote:

Tarre wrote:they also lack direct raw firepower to be all-around "anti everything unit"

And that's a good thing too, anti-everything units with good firepower are fucking bullshit as has been pointed out and shown many times in tournaments by some of the best players still playing this game.

Personally I think that the plasma gun upgrade is shittier than the GL one since it actually lowers the kasrkin weapon range to 38 when one of their perks is that their standard hellgun has above average weapon range, giving plasma/hell gun the same range would go a long way to making the plasma gun upgrade actually worth it. And I think that Fr33man would agree with me on that.

Idd Kasyr plasma is mega useless , plasma GM are superior in EVERY way , less upkeep , more dmg , can be executed , stop retreat more melee dmg, lower cost , quicker reinforcement , repair in the field , execution potential etc... Also all the perks you menctioned.

As far as Kasyr go i think they are a very situational unit but usefull in some instances , only realy good with the LG . Mainly cause of the power free reinforcement with vox and the amazing sniper rifle DPS blob of doom. They are basically very similar to storms since you almost always will use them unupgraded sarg is overpriced considering the 40 power cost of the squad and plasmas are just useless (unless your aganist nobz or Ast Terms). In the other hand however GL upgrade IMO is VERY useful cause you can use them to control comanders, blobs, setup teams and other low count model units with the KB such as PM , in which case GL upgrade is amazing. Overall imo they could use with small price reduction in sarg and getting meltas back or at least tweaking plasmas , otherwise they are perfectly fine, just that they kinda overlap with storms .

Okay, as someone who uses Kasrikin more than most IG players, I think I know that is wrong with this squad.

They are not fitting for T3.

They are overall a good ranged squad who is good in melee, has fast capping, durable armour, nice firing range and nice grenades. But there is nothing that you want from T3. These are all good in T2. You want real hard counters. You know the Exacitounar Cannon? Nothing can stand under his fire. Not asking to add this giant cannon to this squad but those are stuff that IG players want. That is why Leman Russ > Kasrikin currently.



This not good enough. Does slightly more damage than a single Tac plasma gun. And that is not good enough for T3. There are Nobz, Terminators and shit. In T3, Tacs are alreayd leveled up so that's why they don't underperform. Also, Kraken Rounds. Increasing range wouldn't be a soliton too IMO. They need damage, and damage and more damage. If only we could have 3 plasmas insted of 2 in that squad, that would be worth it. And why not? Nobody uses them for their vanillia guns.

Hi again and thanks you for your answers. I looked again at the codex and surprised..again. What is the problem with Kasrkin frag grenades? This is a training dummy grenades, or what?
Lets look:
Kaskrin T3 shit

Storm Troope Т2

T1 SM and EL grenades



And where is the balance here?

_4ut_ wrote:Hi again and thanks you for your answers. I looked again at the codex and surprised..again. What is the problem with Kasrkin frag grenades? This is a training dummy grenades, or what?
Lets look:

And where is the balance here?

Lets look:

You conveniently cut out that Kasrkins have BOTH AV and AI nades without having to pay anything for them and regardless of weapons, while everyone else has to pay for them and in the case of stormtroopers they have to buy a specialist upgrade for either of those.

That's where's the balance.

Ace of Swords wrote:You conveniently cut out that Kasrkins have BOTH AV and AI nades without having to pay anything

Are you sure that you understand that we are talking about T3 unit? Who need a balance with the rest of T3 units.
And he has grenade weaker than that of T1 units . Its not balance, its madnes I think.

BOTH AV and AI nades

Do wey need them? Perhaps it would be better to remove them at all, but give more special weapons.

without having to pay anything

and T2 and T3 you get for free?

the counterargument to that is Kasrkin squad can only but purchased in t3. And stormtroopers don't cost 60 power to get out of the gate. And Storm troopers can infiltrate making use of the grenades a bit easier.

So if i needed a grenade i'd get stormtroopers. If i needed some AV options i'd get Stormtroopers. If i needed Anti HI/SHI i'll get guardsmen. I do think Kasrkin help decently vs plague marines though and CPM which the grenade launcher upgrade. Since that KB does actually a decent number on them due to their slow speed.

I explicitly asked Caeltos about kasrkin frag grenades some time ago, and the reasoning behind it is that kasrkin frag nades have a longer throwing range and a shorter fuse so it's much much easier to hit than other grenades.

Okay, I used some Kasriking again. And changed my mind. They are worse than I think.

Hellguns : Can't kill anything.

Plasma Guns : Can't threat anything.

Grenade Launchers : I liked the desing for anti-capping tool for late games but there is no other reason to buy them.

And there is absolutly no reason to buy them even for 1v1. You will all say '' Learn how to use them, then we talk. '' Oh really? What about loosing every game when I go for them? What about not being able to kill a single Tac model? What about being instanly forced off no matter to their HI armour? Why da heck should I buy them?

And we were talking about scatter damage at some point. Why these guys still have this? Can't they aim something right after all those trainings? Serioulsy, hellguns are worthless.

I was in a casted game recently where a Kasrkin nade squad made dealing with the 2-3 enemy nob squads much easier - the nobs were often camping the VP and exploiting their obscene HP values and invincibility to drain our VP count... other than that very particular situation I would never purchase a kasrkin squad unless I was resource-starved and extremely desperate.

-If you want long-range piercing DPS: get assault kit STs
-If you want frag nades: get assault kit STs (they have infiltrate and better nades)
-If you want anti-HI/SHI damage, get a plasma GM and maybe a commissar (better damage/cost)

In all other situations, you get the leman russ if you want to get your money's worth. Or, if you want to teabag your opponent, you can get a baneblade, as a way of saying "I beat you so decisively I can afford to get this slow, worthless tin can".

Kasrkin will be remaked special weapon squad/supersoIdier. Their elite infatry concept is fail& stormtrooper already taken.

I'll just leave this here.

I'll just leave this here.
https://youtu.be/k2YnoDUdQc0?t=1479