Dawn of War Codex

Playing GK as they evolved has been one of my favorite parts of ELITE. Unlike the other factions which were pretty well established, GK has been an incredible labor of love and a wild ride of highs and lows. The newly christened OM are unfortunately at one of the low points for me. I find their current iteration unenjoyably weak. Since I hear no rumblings of a patch, and I have no desire to play them, the best way to have fun with them is on this forum. So here's what I'm thinking...

I'm putting together my fantasy change-list for OM, but I need help! Crippling indecisiveness and my limited vision hold me back. So I was thinking I'll write it as a Choose Your Own Adventure, and have the forum make the choices. One curated decisions at a time the change-list will grown here in the OP. Where will this end up? No idea. Will it crash and burn? Who cares. Will I get board and wander off? Most likely. But beginnings are exciting, so here goes.

Rules:
Each post I'll lay out what decision I'm trying to make.
The first person to speak up makes the choice, unless they've done so recently.
The OP will be updated with the current set of changes.
I'll make up and change rules as I damn well please.

Decisions:
1- Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered? - Yes/No
Atlas - Yes, it should be altered.
2 - What should the 2nd req only unit be? Strike Squad, Warrior Acolytes or Operatives?
firatwithin - It must be Strike Squad
3 - Should SS get a price tag increase given the context above?
evilmario5 - 475 ss with them changes yes from me for increase



Cyris's fantasy OM change-list:

IST
IST are the beach head of the Ordo Malleas, harassing the enemy positions with ranged fire and preparing the way for GK forces.

Cost reduced from 225 to 200
IST are going the way of the heretic - lower cost in exchange for weaker stats. Investing in them will still get their damage and CC capabilities they had before, but until that investment is made they will be weaker.

Vision range reduced from 50 to 40
Damage reduced from 16 to 14
Warrior Acolyte damage bonus increased from 25% to 40%
Grenade Launcher damage reduced from 40 to 35
Plasma Rifle damage reduced from 30 to 25
To make room for their lower cost, IST are losing their special long range vision perk, and having their up front damage reduced. Net damage with the Warrior Acolyte upgrade remains the same for now. This pushes more of their potency into T1.5 if invested in, while allowing OM to field more cappers and suffer less economic damage from bleed.

Frag Grenade renamed to Concussive Grenade
Concussive Grenade damage reduced from 80 to 50
Concussive Grenade max range reduced from 24 to 20
Concussive Grenade min range removed
Concussive Grenade now suppresses
Sarge pistol fire pattern changed from 1-1 burst to 2-2 burst with a 1/2 reload (same as squads lasguns)
The Frag Grenade traded the potency of other grenades for consistency, but was not pulling it's weight. Adding a suppression tail to the knockback is the first attempt. Perhaps a short stun (like 4 seconds) could replace the suppression? Max range reduced to focus the nade on anti-melee.)

Grenade Barrage cost increased from 0 to 70. Cooldown reduced from 45 to 12
Concussive Grenade cost increased from 50 to 55. Cooldown reduced from 30 to 12
Cost and cooldown adjustments to increase the importance of Purification


SS
Strikes are elite tactical marines who forgo their focus on ranged weaponry to focus on melee prowess and supportive psychic abilities.

Melee Skill reduced from 70 to 60
Melee Damage increased from 30 to 35
Perhaps contradicting my stated goal, but 60 MS with specials is already a solid unit. This will make SS able to be countered by 70 MS squads which falter against them now, and reduce their special chances. At the same time, the damage on those amazing looking halberds is now in line with ASM swords, and might need to go higher. They now want to tie up enemy ranged squads even more, but are a bit more worried about getting specialed by enemy melee. I believe that SS ability to special and wipe a slugga squad in the first engagements (or hormas / shees) is just too much. This should make them remain deadly in melee against these squads, but with a less frequent "oops, I win" situation. Mind Blades and Hammer Hand remain as MS buffs that still should synergize great with these guys, and I strongly am considering making SS have either 65 MS, or Mind-Blades give +15/20 MS, so that SS can get back up to their former highers IF they have buffs on them.

Ranged Damage reduced from 28 to 24
Ranged Damage per level decreased from 1/1.07/1.14/1.2 to 1/1.05/1.1/1.16
If melee and psychic abilities are the focus, the highest marine ranged damage can safely go away. 24 puts them smack between CSM and Tacs. This is a real big nerf! Tacs with kraken will way outshoot them, as will CSM with EW. Though against either, the SS will continue to chop them up real well in melee.

Psy-ammo upgrade removed
Libra-Demonica upgrade added in T1 - 50/15, grants Purification and Lesser Energy Burst
Lesser Energy Burst - Weaker version of Energy Burst - Range reduced from 30 to 25, Energy Burn removed, Slow reduced from 80% to 60%
Justicar now upgrades Lesser Energy Burst into Energy Burst
Justicar ranged weapon replaced with standard SS bolter (no longer plasma damage)
Justicar increase SS melee skill to 70
Justicar increases SS charge range from 0 to 12
Incinerator range reduced from 27 to 24
Incinerator damage reduced from 15 to 13
Incinerator courage damage increased from 20 to 30
Incinerator courage ranged multipliers introduced, same as purgation - 1/1/1.25/1.5
Psilencer damage increased from 23 to 30
Continued reduction of focus on ranged damage in exchange for more reliable support capabilities in T1 and the otpion to imporove melee relevance in T2. Losing psy-ammo means psilencer gets some more base damage, and it was underpreforming already. Incinerator now has a more clear suppression function at the cost of damage.

Rhino
Early changes, very little get checking. Rolling armor upgrade into weapon upgrades to remove the gaming of the health differences, and make it visually clear when the Rhino has HI vs Vehicle armor.
Moved to T1
Cost reduced from 250/45 to 180/30
No longer renforces
Armor type changed from vehicle to heavy infantry
Health increased from 500 to 700
Heavy Bolter and Lascannon upgrade both change armor type to vehicle and reduce health to 500
Heavy Bolter upgrade cost increased from 100 to 100/20
Lascannon upgrade cost increased from 100 to 100/25
Lascannon damage reduced from 165 to 120
Lascannon reload duration reduced from 4 to 2 - Slightly lower dps, shoots more often.


Operatives
Upkeep increased from 5.1 to 7.65

Purgation
Moved to T2
Cost changed from 300/30 to 400
Upkeep reduced from 12.75 to 10.2 (standard upkeep for a 4 pop unit)


Maybe:
Upgrade to add reinforcement?
Speed / seating adjustments?
Adding weapons slows Rhino?

1- Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered? - Yes/No

This first, big choice has me really torn. On the one hand, the current roster has been tested most recently, so balancing it will be easiest. On the other hand, there is a lot of room to make OM more unique, and they have tried a number of T1 units in the past. I dislike that the current near auto-buy SS (and disencentive for 2x IST) move OM away from the vision of "start with inquisitorial, move into GK" that Cael laid out. I also really miss the Rhino in T1, it was super unique, though it and Purgs in T1 is problematic. Regardless of how or what is changed, the first question remains... Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered?

Some of my thoughts on possible changes:
IST lose Warrior acolyte upgrade, Warrior Acolyte becomes a req only T1 squad instead! SS becomes a power costing T1.5 squad, the last squad (or 2?) are up in the air.
Operatives get drastic changes and replace SS as the 2nd req only T1 squad. SS again gain power cost and last 1-2 squads are up in the air.
Bring the Rhino back to T1 (replacing Purg)

BROTHER CAPTAIN

Canticle of Absolution
Target an area on the ground. Improve the energy regeneration of all friendly units and allies by 2.5 e/s and improves the cooldown recovery rate of abilities of units in this area by 2.5x for 15 seconds. Radius of 25. Range 30, 40 second cooldown.

I used to think that this ability was a good concept. But here is the problem; there is no ability to spam around in OM arsenal. Well, maybe Lİbby and Vindicare may have. But this beatiful wargear is never used even for once I saw after 2.5 patch. I wish we could have a new area effect ability.

Purified Blades
The Brother-Captain's melee attacks deal 5 melee splash damage per strike. Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee. Passive ability.

Well, has the general problem of 3rd wargear slot of Brother Captain; it has no real use. I combined it with Halberd, haven't observed a real change. I used to think it may effective against Sluggaz, Hormos and stuff you know. But still haven't seen a real good effect of this wargear. I may prefer some buffs insted of complite change because I like Brother Captain in melee. This wargear has a potential for his early melee weakness against T1 melee squads E.G. : Banshees.

Psychic Lash
Flings a target unit a distance 30 in the direction of the Brother-Captain with weapon knockback, and does 170 psychic damage. Range 30, 60 second cooldown.

Short story; no one intrested in to use it. It has a huge potential to snipe down heavy infantry models but no OM players are instested in it. Can we have something else please ?

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Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
There isn't a reason to buy Sergant unless we need detection. Acolyte's healt regeneration is just perfect for IST. But Sergant doesn't provide something that effective. My suggestion of change is;

-Acolyte gives damage buff like 20%. This is for their plasma gun upgrades so they can be a threat for heavy infantrys around. And a good option for OM players to go for. As we know, our CEO Caeltos is planning to make OM T1 with more light infantry. This might be a good step to begin with.

-Sergant gives the health regeneration aura, detection and grenade. Now he is something pretty handy.

Strike Squad

PSILENCER is the whole problem with this squad. This weapon is not paying off. I used it on CSM and Tacs and they just tanked it! This supposed to be some kind of anti-HI weapon. It is useless. I am not happy with this upgarde. I only but Strike Squad sone I can have some durability on the field but after middle of T2 they are just giving very little fire support. Or look at this way; they are as effective as Batman in the fight of Doomsday in Dawn of Justice. Now you understood it.

I know it is obious but just reminding it. Plese don't forget to change it.

Cyris wrote:1- Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered? - Yes/No

Yes, it should be altered.

I might be cheating a bit, but somewhere on this forum Caeltos has already sort of tipped his hand here. I forget exactly where, but the core of it is that if Crusaders get completed, they would become the new second starting unit and Strikes would cost power and move into T1.5. Therefore, I'm going to make suggestions based on all that coming true.

However, that leaves a problem where Strikes are in a super awkward position, but I'll do what I can to make it work.
The general themes I'm doing is setting up more energy combos in T1 for OM and making the Inquisitorial units more prominent.

Suggested changes:

1)New unit added: Crusaders

Summary:
Crusaders are basically the meatshield tank for early OM that Strikes try to fill atm. They are good at tarpitting, but not particularly talented at chasing units with a lower base speed than some melee and lower charge range. To help it deal lethal damage to foes, it should combo with Operatives stun grenades or other such snares.


Unit Stats
cost - 400/0
(was considering 350, but Crusaders should be fairly tanky so losing models should be a little more painful. It would be 38/0 to reinforce like this iirc)
upkeep - 7
(definitely the higher end of upkeep on them compared to other starting melee. OM army will not have as much of an upkeep issue due to not field as much 12.75 upkeep power armor units and such. Still, Crusaders aren't dropping as much as other starting melee squads so a little increase in upkeep.)
pop - 12 pop
reinforce- 2 pop

type - infantry
squad - 6 (+1 priest)
health - 900 (150 hp each)
courage - 100

Model Stats
type - infantry
armor - infantry
size- small
xp - 70 (slightly more than a slugga)
global - 6

health - 150
melee skill - 75 ( high skill, no specials)
speed- 5
rotation - 800
sight - 40(5)

Weapons
om_power_sword
melee power weapons damage
20 damage per hit
20 damage per second

(^ dps wise, lower than both sluggas and banshees and exactly the same as a default heretic squad, with windup and wind down at .5. Crusaders are more meatshields than slayers so they will win fights by being tanky af.)

Upgrades
They have Melee Resist Aura( obviously)

Warrior Acolyte - T2 - 75/25
(just move the acolyte from the ist to this squad as an upgrade. Provides exact same bonuses. Acolyte upkeep is increased to 7 as well btw)

2)Changes to existing units.

Brother Captain
- Psychic Lash wargear moved to T1.
- Psychic Lash wargear range increased from 30 to 36 with a 5 range leash.
- Psychic Lash damage reduced from 170 to 100.

IST
- Cost adjusted from 225/0 to 210/0
- Warrior Acolyte upgrade removed.
- Sergeant cost increased from 65/25 to 75/25.
- Sergeant pistol dps increased from 6.38 to 12.76 (flat double to compensate for loss of Acolyte + increased cost of Serg)
- Frag Grenade Ability minimum range removed.

Strikes (They go from a good all-around frontline to mostly energy support with meh dps)
- Cost adjusted from 450/0 to 350/30 (really hard to adjust these guys accordingly when moving to T1.5)
- Squad starts with Purification ability.
- Halberd dps reduced from 23.08 to 19 dps (match tacs)
- Storm bolter dps reduced from 16.33 dps to 13.42 ( match csm, but with slightly different firing pattern and the ability to melee special)
- Justicar price reduced from 75/25 to 75/20.
- Psilencer price reduced from 80/25 to 80/20.
- Pysbolt Ammunition moved from T2 to T1
- Psybolt Ammunition price increased from 65/15 to 75/25.
- Psybolt Ammunition now also adds ability - Nullify
- Nullify now burns 1 energy per hit to a target. Costs 60 energy to activate, 20 second cooldown.
(this one is a little wonky, might need to be adjusted especially with the psilencer later)

Operatives
- Operatives now start with only the Stunbomb ability.
- Fallback Plan hotkey changed to E (think it's R atm)
- Fallback Plan upgrade cost increased from 75/15 to 75/20.
- Fallback Plan now grants the Infiltrate ability instead of the Stunbomb ability.
- Stunbombs changed from perfect stun to only affecting the models within the radius of Stunbomb detonation.
- Squad Leader and Satchel Charge upgrade removed. (<- I really dislike the idea of adding more pop to Inqusitiorial units in OM army when you should be transitioning to Power Armor units by T2. Only exception I made was with Crsuaders to make sure they could handle the T2 threats a little better.).
- New T2 upgrade - Extended Operations (name pending )
- Extended Operations cost set at 75/25 , and adds the Krak Grenade ability.

Purgation (super tempted to move these guys back to T2 but let's try keeping them in T1)
- Purgation squad cost increase from 300/30 to 350/30.
- Purgation upkeep reduced from 12.75 to 9.75
- Purgation melee resistance aura removed. (Controversial, but hoping all the other changes compensates)
- Purgation psycannon dps reduced from 17.14 to 13.14 (I'm kinda making this number up, because it is hard to find a real reference for this one. With a cloaked snare available in Ops, I want these guys to be less punishing. This would also be the same logic for LasRhinos in T2 if we got to talking about T2.)
- Purged by Fire now requires 60 energy to use.

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So yeah, I had a lot of fun messing around with this

It seems I will have to say something about G.K. after all...Well, I'll begin after I come back, There is just too much to suggest in one sitting. However, given this is one of my main 3 characers I'll have to say something given they will be attaining, obtaining, & recieving such extensive changes. I'll try not to Elaborate too much so as to make what I'm writing...understandable.

1- Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered?
Yes, says Atlas (and then elaborates a lot).

So, how...

2 - What should the 2nd req only unit be? Strike Squad, Warrior Acolytes or Operatives?

Let's start at the req only units. Inquisitorial storm troopers clearly needs some changes, but they fit the theme and are a solid unit. Let's leave them for now and decide what the 2nd req unit will be. Here's my sell/pitch for each of the choices:

Strike Squad - Keeps OM as a clear analogue to SM/Chaos, while also bringing unique gameplay to the faction. Have had a lot of balance iteration as a req only unit.
Warrior Acolytes - Replacement for Crusaders, since the models already exist for these units. I'd prefer to live in the real world and work with what we have, then wait for assets that might not come. Warriors + IST as req only means OM will really fulfill the fantasy of a beach-head of inquisitorial forces who skirmish and scout, then call in GK to exterminate. They will also greatly differentiate OM gameplay from Chaos and SM, being neither scouts, marines or heretics.
Operatives - Same pitch as Warriors, but an even more unique unit. Heavy balance changes (like reduction of speed to 5.5 and removal of starting abilites) can make this unit balanced as a req only unit. There are a lot of interesting ways to go, but lets' just get past this vote first. (Current thinking is a 400ish req cost with upgrades that make it a "core caster" support, opening up 3x IST vs 2IST + Op builds that synergize with the energy battery abilities on the BC/SS)


Thanks to everyone participating in this thread so far. Let's keep it this constructive! I love all the comments. Some I agree with, some I disagree, others fit in some builds and not in others. Keep them coming! I don't wanna get bogged down discussing them yet, but will as they come up. I'd love to hear the rest of your experiences anomoly, though do say if it's 1v1 or 3v3 (I'm focusing 1v1 natch).

Please, someone do this one. I only had one of those kinds of posts in me :X

Second only req unit in T1

It must be Strike Squad for the current state. Because other two options are scary.

OPERATIVES : Imagine the early performance they can give. In case of 2 of them directly out of base is impossible to stop.

PURGATION : Agian performs too much for early T1, like no way to deal with it.

ACOLYTES : Wait, are they going to be a squad soon?

I just pulled a Tex. I'll write the next post in notepad, but not gonna till this evening.

firatwithin's answer stands: OM T1 req only units will remain IST and SS. Though as decreed by Atlas, the T1 roster will change in some way. 99% sure it's gonna be Rhino replacing Purg.

I am a little surprised by your reasoning though firatwithin. I find Purgation squad is mediocre right now, and would likely get buffed if left it in T1 (and absolutely get buffed in T2). Ops meanwhile are downright weak (and would be altered a lot as a req only squad). No matter, the choice has been made!

I'm just waiting until you ask me if GK Terms should be T2 Kappa.

edit: This one got deep and rambly, sorry! The question is at the bottom.
TL:DR - Balance aside, should SS cost more then tacs? This is more of a thematic question then an analysis of where their current power level is.

We've got some tent spikes in place, so I'm gonna run through some first pass changes on IST and SS to give context for the next question will likely be: what do we do with the Rhino?

IST
In a lot of ways, IST are still have the stats they did with their initial 260 req cost. 5.5 speed, increased vision range, repair, ~30 dps with useful burst fire. Unfortunately they still have the same problems they had then: mediocre upgrades/scaling, high bleed potential, 450req SS combines with them to give very weak map control. There are a lot of directions these guys could move in (like a price increase if SS weren't the other req unit), and they will get nailed downs as other things come in, but I am convinced they need to start with a price reduction paired with a reduction in core stats. So here's the first pass:

Cost reduced from 225 to 210.
Lame Scout cost mirror, but 450 + 210 works in the early game with build times, starting req and income.
Vision range reduced from 50 to 40.
Damage reduced from 16 to 14.
Warrior Acolyte damage bonus increased from 25% to 40%
IST need to lose various perks to be acceptable at the lower price. Ops should be the "spotter" style unit. Damage ends up a little lower then it was (20 vs 19.6), but requires investment. Plasma and Nade Launcher damage will need to be looked at, but table that for now.

SS
Strike Squad look and are awesome. Tactical marines who not only get fucking halberds, but are also psychers. It is real hard to balance this fantasy with the realities of a video game. Their initial cost of 500 made a lot of sense, but played out so poorly, especially with the 260 IST as metnioend above. Capping is too important in DoW for a faction of few super expensive squads, especially when they are also designed to need each other to operate well. I'd love to bump SS price up to 475 to give them room to be "supermen", though IST price would badly need to go down even lower. Heck, maybe that's even a question I should stop and ask now instead of the Rhino? Yeah, lets' do that. But first, the SS changes!
So their fantasy is to be amazing, and their stats sure deliver. Dedicated melee weapon skill, better then tactical ranged damage and the same stats and price as tacs in everything else. This clear over performance is tempered by the lack of capping speed and compounded with IST cost and BC's speed. Further, their T2 scaling remains weak and unfocused, and their 70 melee skill ages out real fast, when pitted against real T2 melee. In short, they try to do too many things well, and the result is OP front loaded unit (like sentinel) that scales poorly (unlike sentinel).
My goal will be to pick the elements of the SS fantasy that are the most interesting visually and thematically (FUCKING HALBERDS and psychic powers) and be-emphasis the other elements (same stats as tacs, crazy high pericing damage, access to 4 different damage types).

Melee Skill reduced from 70 to 60
Melee Damage increased from 30 to 35
Perhaps contradicting my stated goal, but 60 MS with specials is already a solid unit. This will make SS able to be countered by 70 MS squads which falter against them now, and reduce their special chances. At the same time, the damage on those amazing looking halberds is now in line with ASM swords, and might need to go higher. They now want to tie up enemy ranged squads even more, but are a bit more worried about getting specialed by enemy melee. I believe that SS ability to special and wipe a slugga squad in the first engagements (or hormas / shees) is just too much. This should make them remain deadly in melee against these squads, but with a less frequent "oops, I win" situation. Mind Blades and Hammer Hand remain as MS buffs that still should synergize great with these guys, and I strongly am considering making SS have either 65 MS, or Mind-Blades give +15/20 MS, so that SS can get back up to their former highers IF they have buffs on them.

Ranged Damage reduced from 28 to 24
Ranged Damage per level decreased from 1/1.07/1.14/1.2 to 1/1.05/1.1/1.16
If melee and psychic abilities are the focus, the highest marine ranged damage can safely go away. 24 puts them smack between CSM and Tacs. This is a real big nerf! Tacs with kraken will way outshoot them, as will CSM with EW. Though against either, the SS will continue to chop them up real well in melee.

Psy-ammo upgrade removed
Libra-Demonica upgrade added in T1 - 50/15, grants Purification and Lesser Energy Burst
Lesser Energy Burst - Weaker version of Energy Burst - Range reduced from 30 to 25, Energy Burn removed, Slow reduced from 80% to 60%
Justicar now upgrades Lesser Energy Burst into Energy Burst
Justicar cost reduced from 90/25 to 75/25
Justicar ranged weapon replaced with standard SS bolter (no longer plasma damage)
Justicar retains 70 MS
Incinerator range reduced from 27 to 24
Incinerator courage damage increased from 20 to 30
Incinerator courage ranged multipliers introduced, same as purgation - 1/1/1.25/1.5
Psilencer damage increased from 23 to 26
Continued reduction of focus on ranged damage in exchange for more reliable support capabilities in T1 and on. Justicar might be overnerfed? Losing psy-ammo means psilencer loses some damage, and lets be honest, the incinerator is garbage, so buffing them both up. Psilencer/psycannons need a full topic just for them though, not gonna touch that now.


Ok, so time for the question in that context:
3- Should SS get a price tag increase given the context above?

It'd prolly cause a few more IST nerfs and a price reduction for them, and maybe a tiny buff to the SS. I think this is more about setting an interesting tent spike to balance around though: if SS really do cost more then tacs, there is more design space to be had. Though it does cause stress and problems.

Anyways, once that's out of the way quick, we'll get to the fun stuff: Rhino in T1! I put a first pass of what I think of as the baseline in the OP. I'll break it down more later.

SS with 50/15 upgrade for Energy Burst? Yeah, that should probably be a little more expensive. Probably back to 500/0.

Atlas got the first question, so the floor is still open, unless no one answers by tomorrow.

As for the cost, 500 I think is too high to work? I do love the progression it makes with CSM/Tacs (400, 450, 500) though. Old GK had 500 cost SS and 260 IST and it was just the worst. I don't think that in a capping focused game you can find a balance for those as starting costs of units. They will likely either be too combat weak for the trade off you are making in capping power, or so outrageously strong in combat that capping stops mattering! Maybe some 1.5 capping speed multipliers could be added, but then that's stealing SM thunder. Even at 475 for SS IST will prolly need to be 200 or lower.

I think there is a version of OM (or any faction really) thatdoes field a very small number of squads, but it is beyond my abilities to even begin to make a balanced stab at them. So I'll continue to try to make 2x IST, 1x SS a "standard" opening build, and work out from there.

Didnt OM Lacked in real AV like purgation with psilencer and which is effective vs transports and if you can hold of a Dreadnought long enough well guess to, where purifiers are like ogryns with crowd control, well OK rhino with lascan aka mini-predator but against leman russes or other tanks they lack in some seriös AV in my opinion

The Licking Boogyman wrote:Didnt OM Lacked in real AV like purgation with psilencer and which is effective vs transports and if you can hold of a Dreadnought long enough well guess to, where purifiers are like ogryns with crowd control, well OK rhino with lascan aka mini-predator but against leman russes or other tanks they lack in some seriös AV in my opinion

It is psycannon btw

Purgation are a good AV option IMO. They are doing good damage and always will make good damage as long as the target is in range.

Vindicare is a big pain is ass. He can keep hurting a tank without noticing. Also, good option in case of back line artilerry tank like Manticores or Whirlwind. And he does good damage for his size.

Current Inteceptors are worse. Tanky Warp Spiders in short. They are doing good damage like Purgation and can chase down vehicles if they try to run away. And in case of danger? They just teleport somewhere else! Also, Krack Grenade does 250 melta damage which is huge for one shot.

Also, Paladins. They hurt a lot! Thye can chase down Baneblade like Nobz, go toe to toe with Walkers and stuff. Do not forget the psycannon they can equip. Btwi Codex still says GK Termies can equip psycannons. Is it true?

mhhh forgot some of the units that i most times dont use actually ... well sry on my part and thx for the correction

splicing together current posts to give my thoughts instead of replying to a few and to bridge the gap.

Cyris and Atlus

Operatives (Current thinking is a 400ish req cost with upgrades that make it a "core caster" support, opening up 3x IST vs 2IST + Op builds that synergize with the energy battery abilities on the BC/SS)

Operatives
- Operatives now start with only the Stunbomb ability.
- Fallback Plan hotkey changed to E (think it's R atm)
- Fallback Plan upgrade cost increased from 75/15 to 75/20.
- Fallback Plan now grants the Infiltrate ability instead of the Stunbomb ability.
(Yes i like this for sure)

- Stunbombs changed from perfect stun to only affecting the models within the radius of Stunbomb detonation.
(For sure)
- Squad Leader and Satchel Charge upgrade removed. (<- I really dislike the idea of adding more pop to Inqusitiorial units in OM army when you should be transitioning to Power Armor units by T2. Only exception I made was with Crsuaders to make sure they could handle the T2 threats a little better.).
- New T2 upgrade - Extended Operations (name pending

)
- Extended Operations cost set at 75/25 , and adds the Krak Grenade ability.

(trade Krak Grenade for Rad Grenade (AOE) nade)



SS

Melee Skill reduced from 70 to 60
Melee Damage increased from 30 to 35
Ranged Damage reduced from 28 to 24
Ranged Damage per level decreased from 1/1.07/1.14/1.2 to 1/1.05/1.1/1.16
If melee and psychic abilities are the focus, the highest marine ranged damage can safely go away. 24 puts them smack between CSM and Tacs. This is a real big nerf! Tacs with kraken will way outshoot them, as will CSM with EW. Though against either, the SS will continue to chop them up real well in melee.

Psy-ammo upgrade removed
Libra-Demonica upgrade added in T1 - 50/15, grants Purification and Lesser Energy Burst
Lesser Energy Burst - Weaker version of Energy Burst - Range reduced from 30 to 25, Energy Burn removed, Slow reduced from 80% to 60%
Justicar now upgrades Lesser Energy Burst into Energy Burst
Justicar cost reduced from 90/25 to 75/25
Justicar ranged weapon replaced with standard SS bolter (no longer plasma damage)
Justicar retains 70 MS
Incinerator range reduced from 27 to 24
Incinerator courage damage increased from 20 to 30
Incinerator courage ranged multipliers introduced, same as purgation - 1/1/1.25/1.5
Psilencer damage increased from 23 to 26
Continued reduction of focus on ranged damage in exchange for more reliable support capabilities in T1 and on. Justicar might be overnerfed? Losing psy-ammo means psilencer loses some damage, and lets be honest, the incinerator is garbage, so buffing them both up. Psilencer/psycannons need a full topic just for them though, not gonna touch that now.

(for both go down)

Strike Squad

PSILENCER is the whole problem with this squad. This weapon is not paying off. I used it on CSM and Tacs and they just tanked it! This supposed to be some kind of anti-HI weapon. It is useless. I am not happy with this upgarde. I only but Strike Squad sone I can have some durability on the field but after middle of T2 they are just giving very little fire support. Or look at this way; they are as effective as Batman in the fight of Doomsday in Dawn of Justice. Now you understood it.

(Yes to 23 to 26 for damage increase for psilencer
And decrease of 5 power for psilencer upgrade due to lost of psy-ammo
So 80/20 compared to currently 80/25)

Cyris

Rhino
Early changes, very little get checking. Rolling armor upgrade into weapon upgrades to remove the gaming of the health differences, and make it visually clear when the Rhino has HI vs Vehicle armor.
Moved to T1
No longer renforces (yes i agree with for sure)
Cost reduced from 250/45 to 180/30 (more like 220/30)
Health increased from 500 to 700 (base 550)
Armor type changed from vehicle to heavy infantry
Heavy Bolter upgrade cost increased from 100 to 180/20 (100/20)
Lascannon upgrade cost increased from 100 to 200/25 (125/25)
Lascannon damage reduced from 165 to 120 (yes)
Lascannon reload duration reduced from 4 to 2 - Slightly lower dps, shoots more often. (yes good trade off for reduced base damage)
Heavy Bolter and Lascannon upgrade both change armor type to vehicle and reduce health to 500 (reduced to base 550)

Maybe:
Upgrade to add reinforcement? (no)
Speed / seating adjustments? (nope)
Adding weapons slows Rhino? (rip sential if you do)

-Warrior Acolytes - Replacement for Crusaders, since the models already exist for these units

(Models for Crusaders do exist animations how ever up in the air)

-Warriors/Crusaders + IST as req only means OM will really fulfill the fantasy of a beach-head of inquisitorial forces who skirmish and scout, then call in GK to exterminate

(yes sounds good )


Atlus

1)New unit added: Crusaders

Unit Stats
cost - 400/0
(was considering 350, but Crusaders should be fairly tanky so losing models should be a little more painful. It would be 38/0 to reinforce like this iirc)
upkeep - 7
(definitely the higher end of upkeep on them compared to other starting melee. OM army will not have as much of an upkeep issue due to not field as much 12.75 upkeep power armor units and such. Still, Crusaders aren't dropping as much as other starting melee squads so a little increase in upkeep.)
pop - 12 pop
reinforce- 2 pop

type - infantry
squad - 6 (+1 priest)
health - 900 (150 hp each)
courage - 100

Model Stats
type - infantry
armor - infantry
size- small
xp - 70 (slightly more than a slugga)
global - 6

health - 150
melee skill - 75 ( high skill, no specials)
speed- 5
rotation - 800
sight - 40(5)

Weapons
om_power_sword
melee power weapons damage
20 damage per hit
20 damage per second

(old codex page i did on google docs regarding Crusader squad i posted this on the modelling forum page for the crusader ages ago)
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_cz ... sp=sharing)


2) Purgation(Atlus)
Purgation (super tempted to move these guys back to T2 but let's try keeping them in T1)

- Purgation squad cost increase from 300/30 to 350/30.
(Increase to 310/30 better)

- Purgation upkeep reduced from 12.75 to 9.75

(yes as a balance to lower purgation dps from psycannon as put below)

- Purgation melee resistance aura removed. (Controversial, but hoping all the other changes compensates)

(do not remove melee resistance aura you do so the cost of the squad need to go down then a little bit including power)

- Purgation psycannon dps reduced from 17.14 to 13.14 (I'm kinda making this number up, because it is hard to find a real reference for this one. With a cloaked snare available in Ops, I want these guys to be less punishing. This would also be the same logic for LasRhinos in T2 if we got to talking about T2.)

(Purgation Psycannon is fine were its at its no longer crazy powerful as it was once(2.4.2) if it were to be reduced again it be little bit more like 17.14 down to 16/15.90)

- Purged by Fire now requires 60 energy to use.

(i agree with yes)


Firtat

Purified Blades
The Brother-Captain's melee attacks deal 5 melee splash damage per strike. Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee. Passive ability.

Well, has the general problem of 3rd wargear slot of Brother Captain; it has no real use. I combined it with Halberd, haven't observed a real change. I used to think it may effective against Sluggaz, Hormos and stuff you know. But still haven't seen a real good effect of this wargear. I may prefer some buffs insted of complite change because I like Brother Captain in melee. This wargear has a potential for his early melee weakness against T1 melee squads E.G. : Banshees.

(needs buff for sure )

Canticle of Absolution
Target an area on the ground. Improve the energy regeneration of all friendly units and allies by 2.5 e/s and improves the cooldown recovery rate of abilities of units in this area by 2.5x for 15 seconds. Radius of 25. Range 30, 40 second cooldown.

I used to think that this ability was a good concept. But here is the problem; there is no ability to spam around in OM arsenal.

Well, maybe Lİbby and Vindicare may have. But this beatiful wargear is never used even for once I saw after 2.5 patch. I wish we could have a new area effect ability

(I looked up info and OM have Rad Grenades(AOE) could give these to operatives)

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
There isn't a reason to buy Sergant unless we need detection. Acolyte's healt regeneration is just perfect for IST. But Sergant doesn't provide something that effective. My suggestion of change is;

-Acolyte gives damage buff like 20%. This is for their plasma gun upgrades so they can be a threat for heavy infantrys around. And a good option for OM players to go for. As we know, our CEO Caeltos is planning to make OM T1 with more light infantry. This might be a good step to begin with.

(interesting maybe)

-Sergant gives the health regeneration aura, detection and grenade. Now he is something pretty handy.
(do like this idea)


Second only req unit in T1

It must be Strike Squad for the current state. Because other two options are scary.

(i disagree here)

OPERATIVES : Imagine the early performance they can give. In case of 2 of them directly out of base is impossible to stop.

(in 2.4.2 yes in 2.5.2 more so no)

PURGATION : Agian performs too much for early T1, like no way to deal with it.

(they over preformed in 2.4.2 was nufted in 2.5.0 and a little nuff in 2.5.2 they are way closer to being balanced now then ever)

ACOLYTES : Wait, are they going to be a squad soon?

(referring to Crusaders modelling is done animation (up in the air atm)


Purgation are a good AV option IMO. They are doing good damage and always will make good damage as long as the target is in range.

(AV (psycannon) is good to great as long as you use hammerhead, mind blades and the purgation's own ability)

Vindicare is a big pain is ass. He can keep hurting a tank without noticing. Also, good option in case of back line artilerry tank like Manticores or Whirlwind. And he does good damage for his size.

(i agree with this)

Current Inteceptors are worse. Tanky Warp Spiders in short. They are doing good damage like Purgation and can chase down vehicles if they try to run away. And in case of danger? They just teleport somewhere else! Also, Krack Grenade does 250 melta damage which is huge for one shot.

(Why are you comparing these two interceptors an warp spiders (teleport?)

(interceptors have psylancers inferno damage not psycannon)

(interceptors a tier 3 unit currently and other faction have melta weapons/ bombs upgrades in teir2)

Also, Paladins. They hurt a lot! Thye can chase down Baneblade like Nobz, go toe to toe with Walkers and stuff. Do not forget the psycannon they can equip. Btwi Codex still says GK Termies can equip psycannons. Is it true?

(Codex is wrong they have psylaners inferno damage)


Firat and Atlus

Psychic Lash
Flings a target unit a distance 30 in the direction of the Brother-Captain with weapon knockback, and does 170 psychic damage. Range 30, 60 second cooldown.

Short story; no one intrested in to use it. It has a huge potential to snipe down heavy infantry models but no OM players are instested in it.

Can we have something else please ?

Brother Captain(atlus)
- Psychic Lash wargear moved to T1.
- Psychic Lash wargear range increased from 30 to 36 with a 5 range leash.
- Psychic Lash damage reduced from 170 to 100.

(i think this would be good change)

evilmario5 wrote:...great fucking post...

Great fucking post man, I agree with just about everything you said. Of note though, I'm replacing Crusaders with Warrior Acolytes in anything I write / design because I think it's important to keep this in a grounded place. Animations and models exist for Warriors, while they do not for Cursaders. This makes my choice easy. Design wise though, I'm treating them as the same thing, but the community chose to keep SS in place as req only, which makes it tricky to slot them in. Maybe they can be added as a 5th T1 squad? We'll see.

Anyways, since you're here, care to vote on this:
3- Should SS get a price tag increase given the context above?

It'd prolly be to 475, with IST needing to go down to 200 or even lower to avoid crippling early game.

IST GL with 40% damage buff with Acolyte would be insane.

Nurland wrote:IST GL with 40% damage buff with Acolyte would be insane.

I completely agree, and tried to call it out in the entry for them: Plasma and Nade Launcher damage will need to be looked at, but table that for now. The goal is that the Warrior is the upgrade that turns the IST from a capper into a real squad, which is why it's paired with a base damage reduction. Like Toxin Sacks or either Shotta upgrade. I didn't want to dive too deep on the IST changes untill the SS stuff got a bit more settled.

On that note, do YOU want to vote on the SS cost changes? 450 or 475; you can be the one who decides!

475 ss with them changes yes from me for increase on cost

I just don't think the Acolyte upgrade really fits in with IST anyway. As a model, he's basically useless. That 34 dps melee sounds nice in paper but you never, ever want your IST in melee anyway. You really only buy him for his auras. Hence, in my post I moved him on to an actual melee squad.

Also, not to rain on a parade, but 1/2 people posting on a thread on the forum hardly could be called the "community" deciding. Maybe if there were a few extra voices I just like the theorycrafting going on here and seeing what everyone else thinks of how OM should go.

Atlas wrote:I just don't think the Acolyte upgrade really fits in with IST anyway. As a model, he's basically useless. That 34 dps melee sounds nice in paper but you never, ever want your IST in melee anyway. You really only buy him for his auras. Hence, in my post I moved him on to an actual melee squad.

I completely agree with making the Warriors a squad, and in another version of this thread I'd be doing so, but the votes didn't go that way! In the current version of IST I don't mind the Warrior though. Between his die last status, 250 health, tendency to stand in front absorb hits and his auras, he's a worthy addition to the squad, if not a little scattershot in the reasons for buying him.

Atlas wrote:Also, not to rain on a parade, but 1/2 people posting on a thread on the forum hardly could be called the "community" deciding. Maybe if there were a few extra voices I just like the theorycrafting going on here and seeing what everyone else thinks of how OM should go.

I'm not really sure how to take this. Why would it be raining to accurately describe what my intentions for the thread are? I guess I'll just say, yes, this is out-loud theory crafting with arbitrary decision points with no real end goal. Should it be something else?


In any case, I updated the OP with SS and IST changes, as well as calling out early stuff on the Rhino and Ops. I'm putting together 2-3 directions with the Rhino that seem interesting, and will post them soon with question 4!

Basically, should the Rhino be:
A transport
A support vehicle
A gunner

Well, depending on the army, because of there speed of most units, i would say Transport should be the case, because grey Knights should have some Kind of mobility in my opinion on the field, i mean eldar and tyranids could get a huge advantage on larger maps on that point if gk lack in mobility with transports in tier 2, also Chaos and nids are the only faction that dont have a Transport vehicle ATM, so i hope i get feedback of what you guys think about this.

***warning, I am about to spew random dribbles****

1- Should the current T1 roster remain (IST, SS, Ops, Purg) or should it be altered? - Yes/No

Yes, It should be altered.

What made GK unique when it first came out was Rhino in t1... I would very much like to see this work in T1. Rhino with no upgrades, weapons or re-inforce capability. Just HI armour like the sentinel. All further upgrades in t2.


IST need to choose between sergeant or acolyte, not both. Sergeant gives like increased speed, Acolyte gives HP regen .

SS need to be beefier, and cost power. A T1.5 unit. SS should be niche and not the main army for GK. Like caeltos once said...i think...., that GK should be about few elites supported by inquisition troops.

OPS need to sneak around the map and set up traps. Also be able to disrupt enemy then run away.( cause it would be a fun play style, one that is not all about tankiness )

Purgs just need to feel like they burn everything. Give them a clear-out ability to get help with melee.( They carry flamers, lets make them more impactful and a fun choice for people that just want to see things burn. )


2 - What should the 2nd req only unit be? Strike Squad, Warrior Acolytes or Operatives?

none.


3 - Should SS get a price tag increase given the context above?

I do not know about price tag balance, soo no comment.

BloatedChamp wrote:Like caeltos once said...i think...., that GK should be about few elites supported by inquisition troops.

And that is why Rhino needs to reinforce at some point. T1 would be rediculus, but it needs to be done at T2. O.M. gonna have light infantry, even HI.I based SM has Razorback, why O.M. doesn't have any ?

Is this still ongoing?

Work (layoffs, new project) and domestic activities (I have a newborn baby!) have rampped up for me, and Overwatch came out. As a result, sitting and writing about the Rhino keeps getting deprioritized :/ I've been playing nids too, so my DoW2 analysis brain cycles ends up getting spent on nid stuff (build orders, costs, damage comparisons, combos etc). Also, Atlas honestly took a lot of wind out of my sails.

I very much want to get back on this though, I do miss playing OM.

Changes I'd personally like to see:

Interceptors back to T1, with psycannons as a T3 upgrade (would be nice if the Justicar got a psycannon like the rest of the squad, I believe he currently doesn't), krak grenade doing less damage and snaring vehicles.

Operatives getting a melta gun or some other kind of AV upgrade option in T2.

Something done about Strike Squad, very strong in T1, but feels like a poor man's TCSM later on.

Retreat option removed from terminators, price and stats changed accordingly.

BC - unupgraded WATH not affecting him coupled with the removal of teleport is a bit too much. Purified blades and the Chalice armor are both completely useless. Psychic lash is underwhelming, so is the hammer with the AE knockback skill. Would rather see something other than invulnerability on the armor of Titan, BC is tanky enough without it. Nemesis vortex is a lot of work for a questionable effect. Would be nice to be able to detonate it at will. The HP regen armor that used to be a no-brainer in T1 feels somewhat weak in T2, compared to something like Spiky Armor of the WB.

i have a big post I'm working on for Adventure of OM which will be out near future which will outline another idea for OM and my thoughts of these changes (small nerfs and buffs and a little rearrange) not including Brother captain since that make the post too big.