Dawn of War Codex

I was wondering, why are Scout Snipers a thing?

SM already have ASM, Infiltration + melee, and grenades to handle set up teams (and Shield, if playing FC). If all of these options don't suit you, then you can tech to 2 and grab P Devs, which counter all SUT for the low low cost of no power. It seems like SM have the ability to counter set up teams fairly well without them. So, that's the big question, why do SM have access to Scout Snipers?

The reason I have this topic in Balance is, specifically in 3v3s, scout snipers seem overly powerful. The ability to drop larger amount of resources into specializing without penalty tends to make multiple scout snipers a little silly.

117 damage per shot to heavy infantry, 3hp/sec regen between shots, access to a grenade which can be spiked against melee squads, the speed to walk away from fights, only to re-engage when the enemy stops chasing, and the range to pick off set up teams, all add up to an incredible anti-infantry build. And, with the most recent patch and a little luck, grenades on rear armor are an effective counter to early vehicles.

While you are heavily investing in anti infantry specifically, if your teammate is willing to carry a bit of anti-armor for you, you can effective float between engagements, bleed the enemy from stealth, and fade away to hit some other infantry group. Paige of the Changing Names does this very well, but he uses shotguns, which allows some counter play (set up teams and detection).

What would happen if the sniper upgrade was removed from scouts? Does that badly unbalance the game? Thanks for your insight!

Ordie wrote:I was wondering, why are Scout Snipers a thing?

SM already have ASM, Infiltration + melee, and grenades to handle set up teams (and Shield, if playing FC). If all of these options don't suit you, then you can tech to 2 and grab P Devs, which counter all SUT for the low low cost of no power. It seems like SM have the ability to counter set up teams fairly well without them. So, that's the big question, why do SM have access to Scout Snipers?

The reason I have this topic in Balance is, specifically in 3v3s, scout snipers seem overly powerful. The ability to drop larger amount of resources into specializing without penalty tends to make multiple scout snipers a little silly.

117 damage per shot to heavy infantry, 3hp/sec regen between shots, access to a grenade which can be spiked against melee squads, the speed to walk away from fights, only to re-engage when the enemy stops chasing, and the range to pick off set up teams, all add up to an incredible anti-infantry build. And, with the most recent patch and a little luck, grenades on rear armor are an effective counter to early vehicles.

While you are heavily investing in anti infantry specifically, if your teammate is willing to carry a bit of anti-armor for you, you can effective float between engagements, bleed the enemy from stealth, and fade away to hit some other infantry group. Paige of the Changing Names does this very well, but he uses shotguns, which allows some counter play (set up teams and detection).

What would happen if the sniper upgrade was removed from scouts? Does that badly unbalance the game? Thanks for your insight!

It's only in 3v3 where you have a teammate that can double on your side to protect you as you go sniper spam. That build order is useless in every other game mode as you can't gen bash or hold against a push with it.

ASM are expensive and only counter one setup team, Infiltration+melee doesn't work if other units are nearby to defend as Scouts will get wiped, grenades+infil is expensive plus gets countered by a single detector and Stormshield consumes too much energy plus gets kited easily making it useless in 1v1. Plasma Devs in T2 don't add to your fighting power. They're just used to complement it if you're holding a position. Whirlwind is good, but has very little damage and gets destroyed easily if targeted. Snipers are meant to counter setup teams in a specific scenario where you want to not get close and still hit them. SM has counters for everything, but they all do so in a different way and have clear weaknesses.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:It's only in 3v3 where you have a teammate that can double on your side to protect you as you go sniper spam. That build order is useless in every other game mode as you can't gen bash or hold against a push with it.

ASM are expensive and only counter one setup team, Infiltration+melee doesn't work if other units are nearby to defend as Scouts will get wiped, grenades+infil is expensive plus gets countered by a single detector and Stormshield consumes too much energy plus gets kited easily making it useless in 1v1. Plasma Devs in T2 don't add to your fighting power. They're just used to complement it if you're holding a position. Whirlwind is good, but has very little damage and gets destroyed easily if targeted. Snipers are meant to counter setup teams in a specific scenario where you want to not get close and still hit them. SM has counters for everything, but they all do so in a different way and have clear weaknesses.

I don't quite understand your comment. ASM are expensive, but no more so than 2x snipers. They can counter 1 set up team at a time, yes, but they can jump 4 seconds after first leap, in the event of layers, and if your opponent has bought 2 SUT to deal with ASM, you are both ahead by 10 power, and you know to jump the back SUT in the next engagement.

Infiltration + melee is used to de-set up the team, and then pushing with the rest of your army, I have never seen scouts wiped when used to de-set up a team, while other units engage.

Grenades and infil are 40 power, with detectors being between 25 and 30 power, so you are only down 10-15 power and you have provided nearly endless field presence to your scouts with the health regen.

And even taking the downsides you present at face value, it seems to still leave us in a place where Snipers are unnecessary. Then opponent has counterplay options, yes, but that doesn't stop those tactics from being viable.

Do you feel their value really comes from 1v1s? I haven't seen scout snipers in play in the 1v1 games I've seen, and I don't play 1v1, so I have no personal experience to draw on. The point of the original post is say I only see them in 3v3 scenarios, where they become toxic. If they are played out in 1v1s and I'm just not seeing it, I would happily concede the point.

Well the only time I've ever seen anyone use scout snipers post nerf successfully in 1v1 was when I was rocking the scout, scout, scout, dev, dev, beacon build with the TM to counter nids/orks/other SM.

1 fully upgraded scout, 2 snipers. Sniper ignore cover which is great in combination with devs and they wittle down things like asm and heroes pretty well now. The fully upgraded shotgun scout is good anti-melee and combined with layered suppression and endless sniper shots enemy jump squads really struggle to counter the build. Scout snipers are even quite handy vs zoanthropes. It's a niche build though and only works with the TM due to beacons and his great AV in T2.

On a different note a single detector really, really, really, doesn't counter sarge/infiltration scouts. They have to babysit the suppression team all the time to prevent the scouts getting the nade off and that doesn't stop the scouts pulling off point blank nades on capping units that are impossible to dodge. While rendering both the detecting unit and the set up team pretty much immobile. Then scouts out-speed nearly all set up teams and detectors too, in fact, I think they out speed them all!

In a 1v1 where there is lots of room to maneuver about the place and around SUT you do not make a scout nade/inf combo null just by getting one detector. Just not in the least.

ASM's do not counter 2 setup teams. Yes, they can jump twice, but they're going to squad wipe themselves if they jump the second team. ASM's are beaten by dedicated melee units like Banshees or Sluggas and good players defend their setup teams with them. Even without a melee squad to defend, the setup team can just kite and resetup to force off the ASM's.

I'm well aware that you can move up with your army at the same time as I've played this game for many years and am a FC main T2 SM can indeed force off squads like that. Hell, ASM's with Viel of Time and For The Emperor can wipe setup teams in T2 easily. Their dps is too low in T1 though and they can't do it then.

Ordie, play some 1v1's as SM and go against good players so you can understand the matchup better. Only reason sniper spam is good in 3v3's is because of power bashes not being that important, small retreat times in certain maps and because of teammates who can double on your side to protect you. Sniper spam doesn't work in 1v1 because you'll just get gen bashed and then rushed with a vehicle. Hell, you can just build power nodes everywhere and they can't be bashed because snipers don't do much damage to them (whereas shotguns do).

No, I do not think their value comes from 1v1. They're only ever used in specific scenarios or matchups like the Plague Champ. I very rarely if ever get them, but there are still uses. Hell, setup team spam in 1v1 has always been powerful against SM and Chaos have been doing it for many years. Noticed Eldar players have been going 2 Dire Avenger 3 Shuri with WSE lately against SM a lot as well.

Torpid, nade+infil can be used outside the main engagements, but they can't be used in them. I've used them a lot in 3v3's and they turned out great as I could always just move them to other lanes where no one suspects them at all. Good in 1v1 as well, but a lot easier to hear the 'GRENADE!' voice line and move your units in time. I personally think Bloodletters surprise teleporting is better than nades simply because there are no voice lines

Could we maybe get a little bit more info on the matchup?
Somebody recently tried 3 Snipers as TM against me on Angel Gate and it got completely countered by ASMs and a Dreadnought. I was the TM as well.
I am guessing you were playing as SM as well. If he invested into his Scouts that heavy, bide your time, don't bleed, he won't bash unless he invests even more which should give you a clear tech-advantage. A quick vehicle or a Dreadnought will crush him. If he now gets Devs, you already have Asms. If he gets a turret, flank it or counter it with P-devs or quickly equip flamers since missile turrets don't suppress and heavy bolter turrets don't put a dent into your Dreadnought. If his teammate is constantly on your lane then your teammate is doing something wrong as well.

I had a match where 2 players went for 4 Sniper scouts each. I told my mates to go for quick vehicles and bash their power. Power bash is important. He won't be able to kill your tanks if he is out teched. And remind the bleeding of the enemy too.

I had a smaller issue much before than that match. Someone went for 3 sniper scouts in argent shelf, my mate jsut typed '' I know how to deal with this '' He buyed 2 ASM and kick their ass with them! That is also useful. I like double ASM as long as I am not out teched.

Don't forget snipers also counter garrisoned units, especially garrisoned suppression teams where flamers and asm can't do that.

And ASM are way more expensive than scouts because of the bleed + upkeep.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Torpid, nade+infil can be used outside the main engagements, but they can't be used in them. I've used them a lot in 3v3's and they turned out great as I could always just move them to other lanes where no one suspects them at all. Good in 1v1 as well, but a lot easier to hear the 'GRENADE!' voice line and move your units in time. I personally think Bloodletters surprise teleporting is better than nades simply because there are no voice lines

Why not? With a pair of upgraded scouts you can start using the explosive shot -> grenade combo, which is undodgable since your units don't just instantly get off their ass when you hit retreat nor does that stop grenade damage.

And again the detector has to always be in perfect position. Once you get experienced with detector unit's radius you can sneak around it's detection radius on the other side and chuck that nade out unopposed even in a big engagement at the set up team. So long as you are close enough the nade will pop before they can retreat away even with an instant reaction.

And none of this as well stops them insta-gibbing capping squads like sluggas/heretics/horms with point-blank nades and shotguns. Which again is entirely undodgable.

In 1v1 it's quite easy to predict where bloodletters will be as they are needed to counter ASM and set-up teams so they will always be doing one or the other. Scouts on the hand are way less predictable with their backcapping prowess. Decent gen-bashing ability (especially in pairs), ability to wipe capping units and deal with setup teams. Scouts are awesome.

But not with their snipers lol. That's way more niche because snipers don't instantly force off set-up teams and they need something else to spot for them unless you get infiltration on them too which is REALLY expensive for what they do. And sniper don't counter melee like shotgun/sarge scouts.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Could we maybe get a little bit more info on the matchup?
Somebody recently tried 3 Snipers as TM against me on Angel Gate and it got completely countered by ASMs and a Dreadnought. I was the TM as well.
I am guessing you were playing as SM as well. If he invested into his Scouts that heavy, bide your time, don't bleed, he won't bash unless he invests even more which should give you a clear tech-advantage. A quick vehicle or a Dreadnought will crush him. If he now gets Devs, you already have Asms. If he gets a turret, flank it or counter it with P-devs or quickly equip flamers since missile turrets don't suppress and heavy bolter turrets don't put a dent into your Dreadnought. If his teammate is constantly on your lane then your teammate is doing something wrong as well.

Angel gate is an abysmal map for snipers though to be fair. Unless you mean you both at the very bottom near the contested power in which case I have no idea how ASM would counter that.

Sniper dmg nerfed already 2.3.1 patch

Why exactly don't you think scout snipers fit with the SM roster?

A scout sniper squad is a good response to an enemy that uses garrisons, or an enemy who is heavily entrenched in cover. They are particularly good against suppression teams since flamers often can't get close enough.

@Torpid: So true. Devs and Snipers on the bottom lane are a true nightmare to counter for some races. Especially if it is a SM mirror.

Torpid wrote:Why not? With a pair of upgraded scouts you can start using the explosive shot -> grenade combo, which is undodgable since your units don't just instantly get off their ass when you hit retreat nor does that stop grenade damage.

90% -->

Torpid wrote:I'm an obnoxious pedant. I know.

Dark Riku wrote:

Torpid wrote:Why not? With a pair of upgraded scouts you can start using the explosive shot -> grenade combo, which is undodgable since your units don't just instantly get off their ass when you hit retreat nor does that stop grenade damage.

90% -->

Torpid wrote:I'm an obnoxious pedant. I know.

I'm not so sure in this instance Ricky.

Dark Hero does it rather obnoxiously, too often when he's playing properly.

Ace of Swords wrote:Don't forget snipers also counter garrisoned units, especially garrisoned suppression teams where flamers and asm can't do that.

Agreed, but I never see anyone try to clear garrisoned suppression teams with flamers or ASM or even snipers, they use the scout grenade and infiltration to accomplish the task. That's almost always my tactic.

Oddnerd wrote:Why exactly don't you think scout snipers fit with the SM roster?

Because nobody seems to be using them. I agree that they makes sense thematically, lorewise, and they fit the flavor of the faction, but if nobody uses them, except as troll builds, then why keep them? And, yeah, they might be used in standard games, and I haven't seen it, but so far nobody has made that claim.

karnakkardak wrote:Sniper dmg nerfed already 2.3.1 patch

What difference does it make if they were previously nerfed? The question at hand is how they operate right now.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Could we maybe get a little bit more info on the matchup?

The last specific match up was Warboss vs TM on Avensa. TM went Torpid's route, 2 snipers 1 shotgun, 2 devs, beacon in mid. Shotgun stopped Angry Bitz, set up teams stopped sluggas, Stormboys just started bleeding away power until they ate a grenade on retreat, wiping them. When I moved to support an ally, TM had higher mobility with his scouts. He would go the opposite direction from me, force off my teammate, and create power bashing opportunities, then swing over to hard flank our attempt at returning the bash. I caught him out of position twice, but he was able to mass retreat to beacon and re-set Devs. By the time I could move to the beacon, army was already in position. Regular power bashes stopped us from teching to get the vehicles to break his line, and it was GG in 7 minutes. The issue was never him being able to bash, as you say, he had no ability to, but his ability to force off teammates with superior mobility and burst damage allowing the teammate, who did invest in flamers to bash.

Found out after the game that the individual in question specifically played Avensa with fixed lanes so he could uses this tactic repeatedly (he hosted the same game 4 more times that day, same map, fixed lanes, him in mid as TM). And you are quite right Adeptus, once I recognized the tactic, I can adjust for it. But that still leaves us with a unit that overperforms in very specific scenarios, and doesn't seem cost efficient in any other. That's not a balanced unit.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:@Torpid: So true. Devs and Snipers on the bottom lane are a true nightmare to counter for some races. Especially if it is a SM mirror.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote: No, I do not think their value comes from 1v1. They're only ever used in specific scenarios or matchups like the Plague Champ. I very rarely if ever get them...

Guys, this is kinda my point. Sniper scouts are either worthless or broken; either they aren't useful enough to be worth buying or they are OP. And this is YOUR analysis of the unit. From a balance perspective, that's all negatives, and no positives. So why keep the unit?

Torpid wrote:I'm not so sure in this instance Ricky.

Dark Hero does it rather obnoxiously, too often when he's playing properly.

I'm very sure. Grenades only do 90% damage on retreat.
I'm not sure what you are on about...? °_O

karnakkardak wrote:Sniper dmg nerfed already 2.3.1 patch

What difference does it make if they were previously nerfed? The question at hand is how they operate right now.

If my remain right, before patch sniper, this: 7.5s reload, 150 dmg per shot

After patch: 5.0s reload, 80 dmg per shot but heavy infantry 30% more dmg hit As i known.

What i should say about that, sniper unit can unlock setup- re setup micro- control.(even re setting time isnt over 7.5s) SO, actually THEY CAN 150dmg per shot nearly 3~4 second.

and this nerf has only Sm scout sniper& eldar ranger. Doesnt matter gk vindicare assassin.

Dark Riku wrote:I'm very sure. Grenades only do 90% damage on retreat.
I'm not sure what you are on about...? °_O

Oh, I mis-understood what you were trying to say.

Yeah, you're right. They do only do 90% damage on retreat.

Ordie wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:Don't forget snipers also counter garrisoned units, especially garrisoned suppression teams where flamers and asm can't do that.

Agreed, but I never see anyone try to clear garrisoned suppression teams with flamers or ASM or even snipers, they use the scout grenade and infiltration to accomplish the task. That's almost always my tactic.

Scout grenades aren't enough to clear garrisons.

Guys, this is kinda my point. Sniper scouts are either worthless or broken; either they aren't useful enough to be worth buying or they are OP. And this is YOUR analysis of the unit. From a balance perspective, that's all negatives, and no positives. So why keep the unit?

You don't have a point just because you have trouble dealing with them, snipers in general right now aren't great, nor they were broken before the nerfs, the only broken thing was the sm vs eldar matchup because rangers were better at everything while costing less, right now snipers and rangers are useful but kinda underwhelming.

@Ordie: You still fail to mention what your build was. Assuming he got no hero wargear and scout wargear apart from weaponry and a single Sergeant, he spent 180 power in T1, which is quite a lot. You will have to either match his expenditure or go T2 and get Stikkbommas and a Weirdboy imo. Also, if you can not bash their lane, just don't do it. Wait until you know you can and then push with overwhelming force. That level of fortification is just asking for a tripple on that lane. Make them mass-retreat to the beacon and drown them in ranged fire and aoe goodies. The bleed should be quite substantial. Especially to the Snipers.

@ Adeptus Noobus: You are quite right Noobus, I haven't discussed my build. I appreciate your desire to help, your kindness and interest is a credit to your character. Trouble is, I'm just too damn tired to continue this conversation. I really don't know where else to go; I must not be communicating clearly.

I had an experience in the game that led me to wonder about a particular unit, so I started by asking a question "What would happen if Sniper Scouts were removed from the game?" Kamikazee responded with his well thought out post, and let me clearly thank Kamikazee both for his response, and his clarification after my confusion.

However, his post left me with a follow up question. I literally cannot think of a single game where I saw someone purchase scout snipers to clear a garrison or counter set up teams, but I could very well be wrong, my perception isn't absolute. So I asked the follow up question, "Do people use sniper scouts in these ways?"

As of yet, nobody has come forward to say that they actually use Scout snipers. The closest thing that appeared was Kamikazee's post that said he "rarely if ever bought them" and Torpid's post that suggest he only ever uses them in an extremely specific build, and followed up with, " Scouts are awesome. But not with their snipers lol." Which brought me to my final question, "Why keep a unit that nobody uses?" After all, if nobody uses them, it hardly seems like an issue to remove them.

The rest of the thread has been absolutely consumed by a discussion of why sniper spam isn't over powered, tactics to counter sniper spam, a conversation about stealthed grenades, a side conversation about the history of sniper nerfs, an accusation that I've started a pointless conversation over a personal vendetta, and requests for more detail on my last game where I encountered sniper spam.

The whole point of starting this thread was to discuss, in a reasonably direct and civil manner, the question, "What would happen if Scout Snipers were removed from the game?" That does not seem possible at this time. Every effort I've made to redirect the conversation towards this question is taken for complaining about the unit, or a request for advice on how to engage the unit, or a demand that it be removed. It's not a demand, it really was just a question and I just don't have the energy to keep asking.

I withdraw my questions and comments, they are not worth the effort at this time. I hope to see folks in game. And thank you again to Kamikazee and Torpid for their responses, I appreciate your time.

Ordie wrote:Which brought me to my final question, "Why keep a unit that nobody uses?"

Ordie wrote:The point of the original post is say I only see them in 3v3 scenarios, where they become toxic.

First try to be coherent, second the premise "what if X unit is removed from the game just because" isn't a good premise for balance discussion, you also failed to provide a valid reason as to why it should be removed since I use them, rataxas uses them, torpid used them and they have also been widely used in the 2v2 tournaments were topird/rataxas played, to the point it was nothing but double sniper mirrors.

Third we told you why snipers are needed for SM, 2 setup teams counter asm, counter initiating melee rapes ASM, detectors for all factions but chaos counter scout nades, nades and flamers are insufficent anti-garrison and risky purchase vs tanky heroes where snipers deal with garrisons, setup teams and heroes easily, you've been told this by paranoid, torpid and me and now you are trying to swing it back like you are the victim, we've told you why snipers are used but why they aren't seen often and yet you kept insisting post after post that they should be removed because in your imagination ASM always perform better.

Sniper scouts are more necessary to balance than Dark reapers and fire dragons. That's all I'll say...

Four issues come up from this post.

Ace of Swords wrote:I use them, rataxas uses them, torpid used them and they have also been widely used in the 2v2 tournaments were topird/rataxas played

First, Ace of Swords, thank you for this information, this is what I was asking for, from my second post. A small list of individual who use the unit regularly. I hope to see a game where you, torpid, or rataxas play them. I really appreciate your help.

Ace of Swords wrote: now you are trying to swing it back like you are the victim, we've told you why snipers are used but why they aren't seen often and yet you kept insisting post after post that they should be removed because in your imagination ASM always perform better.

Second, from my perspective, a question is not a suggestion. I'm not asking for sniper scouts to be removed from the game. I'm not demanding they be removed. I'm not even suggesting it's a good idea. I never once, in this conversation, said they should be removed. I asked the question, "What are consequence of them being removed?" as part of a thought experiment. Paranoid answered, then clarified, and I thanked him for it. By my second post, the question I wanted answered was, "Who uses sniper scouts in this way?" Until your most recent post, and again I sincerely thank you for that information, I didn't have an answer to the question I was asking.

Ordie wrote:they might be used in standard games, and I haven't seen it

Ordie wrote:If they are played out in 1v1s and I'm just not seeing it, I would happily concede the point.

Ordie wrote:I literally cannot think of a single game where I saw someone purchase scout snipers to clear a garrison or counter set up teams, but I could very well be wrong, my perception isn't absolute.

These aren't demands that scout snipers be removed from the game, these are requests to know who uses them. I would love to observe them in action and get a better grasp through observation. If thought experiments on altering rosters don't belong in the balance section of the forums, where would you suggest they go?

Third, I'm a little upset that you feel I'm trying portray myself as a victim. In my last post, I owned this as my mistake...

Ordie wrote:I must not be communicating clearly.

Poor communication is on me. It is my responsibility to be clear and direct, and in that effort, I failed. I accept that failure as mine, and I apologize for it. I'm taking the feedback presented to heart, and will make a concerted effort in the future to be clearer.

I tell folks I'm too tired to continue the conversation so that, when I don't respond again to comments in a conversation, its clear that I'm not ignoring them or unappreciative of their help. I'm just tired and don't have the energy right now to respond. I withdraw my comments because they have caused friction in the community, and I don't want that. My lack of clarity has caused a problem, and my inability to clarify has made it worse, so I've requested the matter be withdrawn, until I can speak more clearly.

And then I thank folks for their time, effort, energy and insight. I wished them well, and hope to see them in game. I struggle with understanding how acknowledging and owning my mistake, apologizing for it, requesting the matter be dropped to prevent further disruption to the community, and thanking people for their engagement is trying make myself look like a victim.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Ordie wrote:Which brought me to my final question, "Why keep a unit that nobody uses?"

Ordie wrote:The point of the original post is say I only see them in 3v3 scenarios, where they become toxic.

First try to be coherent

Finally, I am concerned that you quoted me out of order which creates an image of inconsistency, rather than acceptance of new information. My first concern, about snipers being toxic was very well addressed by Paranoid. I thanked him for it, and thanked him again for his continued clarification, and integrated his comments to my position, which then led to another question. My position evolved, over the course of the conversation, in response to the information provided. If that looks like incoherence or inconsistency, how do we have a continued conversation that allows for growth?