Dawn of War Codex

I want to know what people think about this.

Personally I think it's quite a stupid change.

It just makes suppression so much stronger defensively since you can't counter it with abilities like aiming wotz dat or counter-suppression. So it just makes games snowball way faster and makes set-up teams a lot stronger. I think in the current meta of ranged unit and set-up team spams - think IG, eldar, SM and shit even chaos to an extent. A good example of the snowballing effect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ycVvid2n-M

It also means that if I set-up my havocs to shoot at say shoota boys but they are behind green cover and I'm in the open... My havocs lose. This is just frankly bizarre.

My biggest gripe with this system is that unlikely coh2, dow2 maps weren't made with it in mind nor the faction and the units built around them, so yeah this was a bad change overall, been saying this since day 1.

Wasn't the idea behind this change that if you are in heavy cover in the long - medium range of the Devs you can somewhat super-soft-counter it with ranged units? I always found it pretty funny that the TM with Artificer can most definitely go into a fire fight with Devs and threaten them even.

I do get what you both mean though and I have to agree. The heavy cover change is somewhat misguided although, as I said before, I do like that ranged heroes can now stand up to setup teams in said range

Personally I think its an ok direction that caeltos is taking. Although it was a HUGE change and probably too much of an indirect nerf to suppression.

I say the cooldown should still increase but the debuff itself is decreased when in heavy cover and light cover. So rather than the weapon cooldown increasing by 20 it gets increased by 5 when in heavy and in light cover it is reduced from 20 to 15.

It makes cover be so much more important. Although this change really helped low model high hp squads. I say to continue this would probably be to lower the reduction has on courage damage heavy cover is and then work on squad formations when they get into cover.

I am not in principle opposed to the idea. I've always found the suppression system in this game a bit 1-dimensional. I've been perusing the codex and it seems like DOW2 has a decent system with courage health/courage damage/courage regen, but the system is wasted in a game where suppression either happens in 1 second or generally not at all.

Ace of Swords wrote:My biggest gripe with this system is that unlikely coh2, dow2 maps weren't made with it in mind nor the faction and the units built around them, so yeah this was a bad change overall, been saying this since day 1.

^ This , also makes some races now just better than the others since supresion and synergy do not work the same across all races (each supresion team works differently and not all races have supresion teams like GK or nids).

Also clearly benefits campy playstyle which is boring and certain comanders like plague champion, apo or IG comanders with bunkers and cover can benefit massivly with that change if it was for me I would remove it completely.

Torpid wrote:It just makes suppression so much stronger defensively since you can't counter it with abilities like aiming wotz dat or counter-suppression.

It changes only suppression_pvp weapons. Aiming wotz dat and other abilities shouldn't be affected.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Wasn't the idea behind this change that if you are in heavy cover in the long - medium range of the Devs you can somewhat super-soft-counter it with ranged units?

I think so yes, but in any case this is exactly what the change does.

Black Relic wrote:Personally I think its an ok direction that caeltos is taking. Although it was a HUGE change and probably too much of an indirect nerf to suppression.

I say the cooldown should still increase but the debuff itself is decreased when in heavy cover and light cover. So rather than the weapon cooldown increasing by 20 it gets increased by 5 when in heavy and in light cover it is reduced from 20 to 15.

Complicated. How would you determine whether the courage damage is from Mind war or suppression_pvp? What if they happen at the same time? Should heavy cover reduce the mind war effect which isn't a projectile? etc

Oddnerd wrote:I am not in principle opposed to the idea. I've always found the suppression system in this game a bit 1-dimensional. I've been perusing the codex and it seems like DOW2 has a decent system with courage health/courage damage/courage regen, but the system is wasted in a game where suppression either happens in 1 second or generally not at all.

It's a system hidden from players, there's no courage bar or anything in the HUD to inform them about a unit's courage status. If it was less 1-dimensional, it'd be yet another complicated layer in dow2 that takes time to adjust to. It's quite enough learning the abilities and auras that affect courage imo.

Fr33man1800 wrote:Also clearly benefits campy playstyle which is boring and certain comanders like plague champion, apo or IG comanders with bunkers and cover can benefit massivly with that change if it was for me I would remove it completely.

It opens up more ways to deal with suppression teams from heavy cover. Campy tactics usually rely on them, so it's not a clear benefit when regular ranged squads can pick them apart. Map design play an important role though, like Ace said.

hakon wrote:

Fr33man1800 wrote:Also clearly benefits campy playstyle which is boring and certain comanders like plague champion, apo or IG comanders with bunkers and cover can benefit massivly with that change if it was for me I would remove it completely.

It opens up more ways to deal with suppression teams from heavy cover. Campy tactics usually rely on them, so it's not a clear benefit when regular ranged squads can pick them apart. Map design play an important role though, like Ace said.

It makes defensive SUT play worse and offensive SUT better. There is nothing good about the change at all >_<

I'll have to check with AWD, but still there are many other abilities such as mind war and then the rangers with their upgrade never suppressing tacs if they are in cover... It's really dumb.

Torpid wrote:...
It makes defensive SUT play worse and offensive SUT better. There is nothing good about the change at all >_<
...

This point entirely is my biggest gripe with the change. I know that it's supposed to encourage more ranged counters to SUTs, but it just does the opposite as Torpid has mentioned. Now factions that don't have traditional jump units like Eldar or IG are having an even harder to trying to dislodge SUTs from green cover since they'll just park it there and be pretty darn invincible at times.

Really, I got gripes about how suppression in the game works in general. It's too binary and completely wrecks a lot of melee builds while making ranged armies so dominant in the game because they are cheap, able to swing entire fights and transition perfectly into hard AV even if the opponent fast techs.

Most of them are too stronk anyway imo. IG HWTs are probably the worst offender right now. They're just silly at pretty much every step. However, Havocs autos are still kinda lol and Eldar GWTs are so powerful because Eldar really needs them to be imo.

Idk, I'm just starting to ramble here. I just want to see someone other than Mathis able to make melee builds work outside of complete surprise tactics. Suppression mechanics in general just need some kind of rework and yet I don't really know how exactly I want it to look like.

Tl;dr

Torpid wrote:I'll have to check with AWD, but still there are many other abilities such as mind war and then the rangers with their upgrade never suppressing tacs if they are in cover... It's really dumb.

hakon wrote:It changes only suppression_pvp weapons. Aiming wotz dat and other abilities shouldn't be affected.

Like hakon said, it doesn't affect AWD, Rangers or Mind War. Only things that deal suppression_pvp damage. Direct damage abilities (non-weapon) don't deal suppression_pvp damage, they apply courage damage directly to the target. And AWD doesn't deal suppression_pvp damage, it does piercing. If the abilities or weapons seem to be doing less courage damage, this change probably isn't the reason.

hakon wrote:

Black Relic wrote:Personally I think its an ok direction that caeltos is taking. Although it was a HUGE change and probably too much of an indirect nerf to suppression.

I say the cooldown should still increase but the debuff itself is decreased when in heavy cover and light cover. So rather than the weapon cooldown increasing by 20 it gets increased by 5 when in heavy and in light cover it is reduced from 20 to 15.

Complicated. How would you determine whether the courage damage is from Mind war or suppression_pvp? What if they happen at the same time? Should heavy cover reduce the mind war effect which isn't a projectile? etc

Well suppression (listed as morale) has their own place in the combat section of the tuning.rbf

That section also say what the recovery is and the modifiers of units that are suppressed. If a squad gets suppressed you can just add a player upgrade called (suppression) and then under each entity added modifiers units each light and heavy cover to include cooldown decreased (to offset the X20) when the unit is suppressed.

I already did something similar to purifiers to where they can walk faster when they are suppresses and only when they are suppressed and it works like a charm. The only problem is it would be tedious.

But i had a conversation with Atlas a while back about the suppression mechanic and i decided while i want to try and combine how CoH2 pinning units and my idea of heads stay down under heavy fire regardless of what cover they are in. Now that one is complicated to do and honestly idk how imma do it or if it would work since suppression is such a big deal in the game and could break some race that heavily rely on suppression.

Wise Windu wrote:-

Well where is the bug then? Because I know for a fact rangers NEVER suppress tacs when in green cover anymore.

If the end result of the changes is an easier time using SUT's offensively then I am all for reverting it. SUTs in general should be a defensive unit and buying a bunch of them should punish you by limiting your offensive capability.

Torpid wrote:It makes defensive SUT play worse and offensive SUT better. There is nothing good about the change at all >_<

Not saying it's a good change, but I can't fault or call experimenting stupid (unless it's retreating paladins . Still, I don't get many of the arguments in this thread. The only thing that makes sense to me is Ace's post, and perhaps the ranged-meta concern.

Atlas wrote:This point entirely is my biggest gripe with the change. I know that it's supposed to encourage more ranged counters to SUTs, but it just does the opposite as Torpid has mentioned. Now factions that don't have traditional jump units like Eldar or IG are having an even harder to trying to dislodge SUTs from green cover since they'll just park it there and be pretty darn invincible at times.

Like this, wtf. Eldar/IG had a hard time dislodging SUTs? and why are suppression teams invincible at times now?

Black Relic wrote:...

Ok, but about the complications I mentioned? We're not looking to change suppression effect of abilities like mind war when in heavy cover, because that makes no sense.

Well in that case revert the change done to suppression_pvp and add a courage damage reduction to units that get into heavy cover but add a requirement that says don't activate if "this" is here and whatever "this" is add it to all the abilities that cause suppression on a unit or this bug will probably continue.

It was a bad change overall, SUTs should be dominating sustained fights in t1 as is their role, having heroes/healing squads out-shooting them is all kinds of lame and should never happen, there are also already plenty of counters to setups in t1 in terms of flanks (omg the micro) and plenty of options for each faction.

Revert it, t1 SUTs were fine before and didn't need the change, don't fix what isn't broken.

hakon wrote:

Torpid wrote:It makes defensive SUT play worse and offensive SUT better. There is nothing good about the change at all >_<

Not saying it's a good change, but I can't fault or call experimenting stupid (unless it's retreating paladins . Still, I don't get many of the arguments in this thread. The only thing that makes sense to me is Ace's post, and perhaps the ranged-meta concern.

Well, I wouldn't call experimenting stupid and I never did. I just that in hindsight this was a bad change and thus pursuing it was stupid. That's not the same as saying experimenting is stupid.

However, I would also say that experimenting, in this mod, with this meta and playerbase is highly inappropriate. If retail was remotely competitive or balanced I am sure the Elite mod would be essentially dead by now.

A balance mod is a nice idea but we clearly went away from that ideal a -long- time ago and I have to say I think a lot of people are discontent with arbitrary changes that are there for the sake of 'seeing how it will work out' or forcibly changing a meta for shits and giggles because one can. And that's why a lot of good players refuse to play elite or only do sparingly.

Things like this change to courage damage, the entirety of the GK Balance history, the addition of units like dark reapers and fire dragons, the change to the wraithlord hp, the falcon power reduction, the tank speed buffs, capillary towers, removal of zoan focus blast, the ubiquitous hp regen wargear buffs, etc.

Sure, we can do stuff like that if we actually have a big discussion and even a beta for such huge changes as they are, except we pretty much never did. The vast majority of the community dislikes all such changes but still participates in elite because the majority of the changes were good AND there is no alternative mod.

Yet the forcing of such changes on the playerbase does detract from their gameplay experience and thus I think it is inappropriate. If a select few want to try out the experimental changes in a beta sure, but just chucking it at 50% of the playerbase when they are more than content with how such mechanics works is very weird and... Inappropriate.

Atlas wrote:This point entirely is my biggest gripe with the change. I know that it's supposed to encourage more ranged counters to SUTs, but it just does the opposite as Torpid has mentioned. Now factions that don't have traditional jump units like Eldar or IG are having an even harder to trying to dislodge SUTs from green cover since they'll just park it there and be pretty darn invincible at times.

hakon wrote:Like this, wtf. Eldar/IG had a hard time dislodging SUTs? and why are suppression teams invincible at times now?

Yes, eldar did and do. Especially after a battle equipment nerf alongside the ranger nerf. They lack jump troops and DA are no scouts when it comes to killing set-up teams. IG of course do, it has always been and still is their major weakness. Catachans are one of the weakest, most cost inefficient units in the entire game (only made even worse than they already are by that explosive shot bug) and spotters cannot aid much with map control due to hw they lose to everything - they also don't help you deal with tanky melee heroes. So they often find themselves, like eldar, relying on their own suppression to counter other suppression. They're invincible because counter suppression is useless. It was the most reliable counter IG/eldar had to enemy suppression.

Perhaps you should try out some 1v1s sir? The game is pretty stale atm on elite and I find retail more enjoyable tbh.