Setup team AV weapons as upgrades vs standalone units

[Oddnerd]

Hi all,

Depending on which race you are playing, suppression spam can be a mild nuisance or almost impossible to decisively beat in T1. I mostly play IG and Eldar in 3v3 so my opinion on the matter may be skewed.

In T1, most races have ways to deal with a single enemy SUT; however, when that enemy purchases 2 or 3 SUTs, they become exponentially more difficult to deal with, particularly for certain races like IG or Eldar who lack jump troops - this problem is compounded by the tight lanes in most 3v3 maps. Come T2, having more than 1 suppression team has diminishing returns, as vehicles, new infantry upgrades, and new global spells become available. In theory, this could mean that people who spam SUTs in T1 enjoy an advantage in T1 but are punished come T2; however, HWTs, GWTs, Devs, Havocs, and Lootas can upgrade their suppression weapon to an AV weapon or in some cases an autocannon in T2. This means you aren't punished for purchasing multiple suppression teams in T1, since any surplus teams can convert their weapons into more mid-game and late game-relevant weapons with AV or anti-all damage. In effect you can purchase multiple SUTs in T1 and enjoy lane dominance without diminishing returns, then when the game reaches the stage where more than 1 suppression team is typically unnecessary, you can transition some of their weapons into more useful variants.

If anti-vehicle and/or anti-all SUTs were standalone units instead of upgrades (as the brightlance was in retail), people who purchase multiple SUTs in T1 would have to live with the consequences of purchasing multiple SUTs later in the game, rather than being able to mitigate the problem via fairly inexpensive upgrades. An analogous example to this would be GM flamers - they are a very potent upgrade in T1, but because you cannot swap them out with a plasma gun later in the game, you have a clear trade-off between a weapon that provides an early-game advantage or a weapon that provides optimal late-game power.

I wanted to see what other people think about this. I am not hear to say I absolutely feel SUTs are too powerful and that changes are desperately needed, I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

[Nurland]

If you see 3 SUTs. 2 rangers or 2 spotters should deal with it.

[Oddnerd]

Those solutions might help you survive T1, but then when T2 rolls around your opponents 3 SUTs can scale well into the mid and late game by changing weapons, while you are stuck with 2 rangers or 2 spotters. Seems like one player has to consider a tradeoff while one does not really have to.

[hiveminion]

Those solutions might help you survive T1, but then when T2 rolls around your opponents 3 SUTs can scale well into the mid and late game by changing weapons, while you are stuck with 2 rangers or 2 spotters. Seems like one player has to consider a tradeoff while one does not really have to.

Apart from still countering the SUTs...

[Forestradio]

The balanced setup teams lose all their anti-infantry capability when they upgrade to AV weapons...

[Atlas]

I never want to ever get 2 spotter teams. They're just not worth getting 2 squads of. Not unless you're trying to go for some kind of mortar instant-wipe.

[Nurland]

If you are facing set up spam, you should spam the counters. Spotters remain an efficient counter to set ups every tier of the game.

Rangers scale worse but they will still counter set ups.

[DandyFrontline]

Well, as IG u can always bring setup team of your own (or 2, or setup team + spotters to push the enemy towards your setup team for insta retreat). At t2 upgrade with refractor shield + AC and punish the enemy with superior range, damage and immune to KB and Suppression.

[Nurland]

Multiple setups can be rough for IG. But spotters deal with them. Especially in team games.

Though I'd appreciate Fr33man's or Torpid's input on this one since I am not an IG main.

[Oddnerd]

Spotters don't counter setup teams, they temporarily disable them. Once you've smoked them or knocked them off their spot you still need combat units to kill them/force them to retreat/tie them down in melee.

You can try to counter HWT spam with spotters, but once T2 comes your opponent can upgrade his suppression teams into more relevant units with different damage types, while you are still stuck with multiple spotters.

[Torpid]

Spotters don't counter setup teams, they temporarily disable them. Once you've smoked them or knocked them off their spot you still need combat units to kill them/force them to retreat/tie them down in melee.

You can try to counter HWT spam with spotters, but once T2 comes your opponent can upgrade his suppression teams into more relevant units with different damage types, while you are still stuck with multiple spotters.

That moment when your t1 is 3x gm, sent, spotter, spotter vs his 2x DA, shees, 3x shuri.

Then you realise nothing you can get in t2 will counter his t2 shees + autarch + falcon combo.

I think the issue is definitely more of a 1v1 thing. Due to the laney nature of teams you can just pick off enemy SUts 1 by 1 with the mortar shell chucking them into your ranged blob and generally most IG players laugh in 3v3 at the prospect of someone using melee units vs them. In 1v1 T2 melee is the bane of IG. Super speedy horms, ranged damage immune sluggas/shees/KCSM... Terrible. And spotters do nothing to aid you with that while also doing no AV. It scales terribly since you cannot blob in 1v1 - you must split your units up. And since unlike other set up team counters such as snipers or jump units or nades you do need support for spotters to force off the SUT you begin to realise you really have no way to maintain map control.

The brightlance is blatantly OP. Too fast. Such a great arc of fire. Huge dps, energy shield support AND can do anti infantry damage if you bother to micro its beam LOL. Really ridiculous tbh. How so few people complain about scorchbeam I don't know.

Havocs/HWT are an issue atm due to overperforming autocannons which ought to be nerfed.

Loota spam I don't think is too much of an issue but I guess those who play vs mathis would disagree... 3x sluggas, 2x lootas is a pretty lame ass build to fight against. It would probably make lootas pretty generically useless though if they couldn't upgrade to beamy...

Not sure SM dev spam is ever op lol.

[Toilailee]

Not sure SM dev spam is ever op lol.

https://youtu.be/mPKuexSEawI?t=561

[Torpid]

Not sure SM dev spam is ever op lol.

https://youtu.be/mPKuexSEawI?t=561

100% caused by getting catachans over spotters.

That game wouuld have been sooooo easy if you just kept one dev default for a lascannon though haha.

[Toilailee]

Not sure SM dev spam is ever op lol.

https://youtu.be/mPKuexSEawI?t=561

100% caused by getting catachans over spotters.

That game wouuld have been sooooo easy if you just kept one dev default for a lascannon though haha.

Not sure if spotters existed yet at the time.

[Torpid]

Not sure if spotters existed yet at the time.

He got them later in that game Toil 'ya toilet hahaha.

At that point their smoke shell was reducing range by 90% instead of the 50% of now too haha.

[Toilailee]

Not sure if spotters existed yet at the time.

He got them later in that game Toil 'ya toilet hahaha.

At that point their smoke shell was reducing range by 90% instead of the 50% of now too haha.

Damn I could've sworn it's not been "that" long. Time flies man, I haven't accomplished anything with my life since spotters were introduced but time just keeps on ticking away.