Dawn of War Codex

Nerf 3×GM(or gm itself)
Objection. 3 gm means enemy has no sentinel. Which they dont have anti melee skill (stump), no tracking enemy, no distory heavy cover, no make route to crush wall.
No sentinel, mean no tactical advance.
3gm only one superior than 2gm+sentinel are their dmg.
So, 3 gm build already has reasonable risk &disadvantage

Nerf hwt-delete shield itself
Objection.delete itself smut not an option. Shield itself already have been realease retribution(tm). And sergent upgrade changed to shield upgrade (no add member but no pop/upkeep) in early of elite mod. And far later, hwt member incresased from 4 to
6.
with their infantry armor & 6 member, they REALLY vulnurable to Aoe skill.

Of course, at some point, shield upgrade has so many advantage but delete it is...not simple problem. We should think about make example of delete element comparing of vanila game. Ask for u guys. Is it right way? Like many of core Element deformation maybe distory games inside root.

My suggestion: from 6 member to 5 member(as torpid said), delete dmg resistence from shield. Hwt still have kb&sup immune.

Nerf lasturret to stop built early engagement
partical Objection
Make early lasturret=delayed buld power node=delayed make generator=delayed gathering power to tier2 tech up.
And it has '5'power mean ur sentinel will be delayed stomp upgrade.(thier upgrade power cost 15)

But in team game, ur teammate will fill the gap of power activated and its right.
so ill propose increased turret req cost from 150 to 180. This make will be opposite can manage early build turret because contruction slightly delayed.

Nerf leman russ
2 opinion ive seen.

1. delete elite tank crew-but as torpid said, elite tank crew blocking to leman russ 'rush' if modder to this, maybe impact for balance little or even can considering buff

2. delete dmg resistence itself-now i have objection.
Remember how useless leman russ in retribution. They really easily killed by lascannon, tactical marines missile or even leveled up tzeench dread or plague marine.

U can say like this: "these risk has any other race's tank!"
Lets cosider.
Fire prism-no risk for their long long range.
Looted tank-they have self kb skill to enemy which anti setup/av infantry unit.
Predetor/csm predetor-nothing to skill have tank itself . But u consideration these 2 heavy infantry army has lots of nutralized device(=melee unit) set up team/range av weapon unit
Carnifex-
Carnifex-tb:have charging skill, and can make ripper swarm/
Carnifex-bbs:their basic shot supress enemy unit and can make spore mine/
Carnifex-vc:have no skill. But it is in tyranid has many of melee unit can nutralize av unit.

Now, the leman russ (in retribution. because in there no dmg resi)
Has no skill
They have little a bit high hp in inital-but preadtor series&looted tank have hp increased upgrade. So this is a little advantage compare other tank(even only in point of cost) and this is totally nutralized of IG's feature that
lack of melee unit to nutralize av unit/setup team.
Are they have artilary? Yes, but enemy can avoid to move.
And ig artillary is not constant. Compare to melee unit (they can harass unit untill they die or retreat)
(Add, guardman can reparing behind leman russ, but they are not immortal. U can kill guardman to more xp and this already consume to enemy req. u know in late game req will be more important than power...so it is painful)

Now reach to conclusion: ig leman russ have good dmg, and little a bit more healthy. however cause by feature of ig, leman russ can so easily wiped out so cannot be a useful/can main power of imperial guard. And ig have no tier 3 infantry(elite mod is not. But karskin really underperform),and bb is good but too heavy cost so many of ig player want fill the gap lack of early tier 3 timing but leman rus failed.

Still in elite mod, late time ig heavily rely on the leman russ. And this aura can change after bb cost down&karskin will be useful unit. But now it isnt. So i refuse deleted dmg resistence.

And as u know in retribution, guardman repairing rate now in halfed (10hp per second) but elite mod still 20hp per second. I donno modder will be decrease repair rate for follow retri or not. But u consider this too. So, think careful this issue.dont make leman russ to olafed

Nerf lord commisar stubornness
Objection. U can countering to focus fire for him. And without other wargear, commisar with stubborn alone not good in battle.(just take a agro/little a bit dmg. Even equipped power sword, can he critical harm to tier 2 upgraded unit?) If LC heavy investgate on his wargear, he maybe tier 3 later/lack of unit. And still u can focus fire and supressed him. And when u success to kill him... that will be a ur game.
COST:
Power claw(150/50)+((flackjackit(150/35))+stubornness(175/35)=
325/85 (475/120)
look at this. It's not op consider cost. If this should nerf, FC should nerf too.

AND...what i suprised not mentioned nerf stuff.

Lord general sniper rifle-33%range increase to 25%increase.
-need more nerf. Without storm tropper, it seems not an op. But with them, they realy devastating one lane.
Stormtropper cost are not cheap ive known (400 req) but this is nothing to counterable except chaos. Other faction should make armor as soon as possible if u see that build.

Lorde general kb immune armor (i dunno exact wargear name)
Change from kb immune to grant melee resistence aura(maybe 50% to all nearby unit)

3 gm means enemy has no sentinel.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

The problem with current GM cost & upkeep is that they in fact open normally 2x gm + sent and get a third GM purely for gen bashing with flamers and it's impossible to stop in 1v1.

Ace of Swords wrote:

3 gm means enemy has no sentinel.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

The problem with current GM cost & upkeep is that they in fact open normally 2x gm + sent and get a third GM purely for gen bashing with flamers and it's impossible to stop in 1v1.

"3 gm" ive said means early timing gm spammed.
add 1 more gm with flamer& ponit cap in 1v1 is good ig's early detached force. I think it hasnt problem about guardman. It can manage to counter detached unit (slugga boys with burna are pretty damn good detached force. And separated one gm rarely win usually ex)slugga boys,heretic, scout with sergent-suprisely they win in melee because they have melee resistence aura, hormagunt,inq operative.

If u want 2 gm q senti + 1gm more nerf, why dont u say Orks 1 slugga 2 shoota+ 1 slugga for gen bash tactic?

karnakkardak wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:

3 gm means enemy has no sentinel.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

The problem with current GM cost & upkeep is that they in fact open normally 2x gm + sent and get a third GM purely for gen bashing with flamers and it's impossible to stop in 1v1.

"3 gm" ive said means early timing gm spammed.
add 1 more gm with flamer& ponit cap in 1v1 is good ig's early detached force. I think it hasnt problem about guardman. It can manage to counter detached unit (slugga boys with burna are pretty damn good detached force. And separated one gm rarely win usually ex)slugga boys,heretic, scout with sergent-suprisely they win in melee because they have melee resistence aura, hormagunt,inq operative.

If u want 2 gm q senti + 1gm more nerf, why dont u say Orks 1 slugga 2 shoota+ 1 slugga for gen bash tactic?

Because sluggas are trash in t1? Or maybe because the sent is an entity that doesn't bleed and keeps the opening army of your opponent busy while bleeding it?

I'm with Ace on that part, 3 gm + 1 sent is pretty standard play right now. You can currently build it basically without interruption at the start of the game.

Reading over your concerns OP a lot of them seem to be issues with your particularly playstyle that you have adopted from mostly played 3v3, hence very laney play. 3x GM issues definitely is a 1v1 issue not a 3v3 one and it definitely refers to builds that use a sentinel too. 3x GM + sentinel + spotters/cats, 2x cats, 2x HWT or HWT/cats. All are very very OP in 1v1 atm and the issue is mostly HWTs and GM.

Nobody is suggesting to remove the HWT shield so don't worry about that. However removing the damage resistance is not an option as it does mean the squad gets annihilated by double nade spikes to the lead model since he is a die-last leader. I want to remove the suppression resistance. I think that would be fine after a HP nerf via 1 less model.

A req increase would not solve the issue of the las-turret rush atm and it would only nerf the effectiveness of late-t1 or even t2 las-turrets so I really don't like that suggestion. Red is perfect. 5 is not really significant in the late-game.

The leman russ damage resistance removal is not a HUGE nerf because we would add in the "artificial hit-points" that the armour accounts for. So even though they'd lose the damage resistance their max hp would be over 1000 by default. It is still a nerf though because it means they repair slower. Before you only needed to repair ~700hp to have a tank that has ~1000 effective hp. If this change comes through you have to spend the time to repair 1000hp. So it's only a minor nerf to do with repair rates - basically lemans will just need a bit more maintenance but their in combat effects will be mostly as strong, with cheaper weapon upgrades to boot.

Your commissar and sniper rifle concerns are there due to how you play in 3v3. Try play some less laney maps and you should notice why the sniper rifle nerf isn't really necessary the stubbornness one definitely is.

Is there a clear list of these changes someplace? I feel like I'm seeing such a swirl of speculation without anything to base opinions on. Specifically, HWT and Russ changes, but anything else not in the 2.6 patchnotes. I'd love to provide feedback on them when I do an IG writup.

Does anyone even build lasturrets past like the 3 minute point of the game? Their main boon is how early you can get them out and a direct nerf to that, which a 5 red cost would be, would hurt it a lot imo.

Could turrets be re-designed so that they are more viable past the 2-3 minute mark but not used for cancerous first engagement spam at VPs?

As for the turret. I would like to see their armor upgrade rather than increase health by as much as it does. It lowers the damage they take from framers. And when the upgrade is purchase a new ability gets unlocks so the player can blow the turret up to damage melee squads but at the cost of not being able to get some of the resources that you spent on the turret back.

Of course the upgrade would be available in t2.

To make it not spamable. There is a way so that the turret requires a player upgrade. And the upgrade could be called "turret_cooldown".

On the HQ there could be like a 2 or 3 minutes delay before the HQ automatically gets this upgrade (or you can put it on the IG Heros whichever one is easier). Then the GM can't spam the turret first engagement. It's not all that complicated. But that also means the 5 red cost is not needed.

Cyris wrote:Is there a clear list of these changes someplace? I feel like I'm seeing such a swirl of speculation without anything to base opinions on. Specifically, HWT and Russ changes, but anything else not in the 2.6 patchnotes. I'd love to provide feedback on them when I do an IG writup.

These are from a variety of threads near the top of the balance part of the forums.

Atlas wrote:Does anyone even build lasturrets past like the 3 minute point of the game? Their main boon is how early you can get them out and a direct nerf to that, which a 5 red cost would be, would hurt it a lot imo.

They don't but honestly, I swear to you 100%, this is just due to ignorance and fear to go outside the meta.

Las-turrets are amazing vs an ork that goes stikkbommas in T2. The tyranid that doesn't get a venom brood (on that note, plasma heavy turrets tear nids asunder - the venom brood cannot even solo them). And eldar that lack wraithguard. Spam them all day long.

Also, in T1 I will often get 4 or 5 las-turrets vs a WSE or a tyranid as they are just downright abusive vs those races, especially when upgraded. It might seem insane but just place them near cover with one behind it to wade off melee and your sent+ a gm squad in that cover. Very hard for a foe to push that part of the map. Then you do the same with a 2nd sent and GM elsewhere then your hero solos stuff with the brazier or power sword elsewhere. Very very potent vs the WSE and nids. Las-turrets counter suppression teams and in enough numbers melee too.

A wise WSE gets group teleport to counter it or they get base-locked. How often do you see that? But it's 100% how the MU is forced to go if you play it right. People just don't do it because it is un-meta.

I use turrets after the 3 minute mark. Usually when a GM has retreated and doesn't have a commissar yet. For some extra fire power. I do dislike how it does cost a fair amount of upkeep for the turret. But that probably won't be changed.

Torpid wrote:

Cyris wrote:Is there a clear list of these changes someplace? I feel like I'm seeing such a swirl of speculation without anything to base opinions on. Specifically, HWT and Russ changes, but anything else not in the 2.6 patchnotes. I'd love to provide feedback on them when I do an IG writup.

These are from a variety of threads near the top of the balance part of the forums.

Atlas wrote:Does anyone even build lasturrets past like the 3 minute point of the game? Their main boon is how early you can get them out and a direct nerf to that, which a 5 red cost would be, would hurt it a lot imo.

They don't but honestly, I swear to you 100%, this is just due to ignorance and fear to go outside the meta.

Las-turrets are amazing vs an ork that goes stikkbommas in T2. The tyranid that doesn't get a venom brood (on that note, plasma heavy turrets tear nids asunder - the venom brood cannot even solo them). And eldar that lack wraithguard. Spam them all day long.

Also, in T1 I will often get 4 or 5 las-turrets vs a WSE or a tyranid as they are just downright abusive vs those races, especially when upgraded. It might seem insane but just place them near cover with one behind it to wade off melee and your sent+ a gm squad in that cover. Very hard for a foe to push that part of the map. Then you do the same with a 2nd sent and GM elsewhere then your hero solos stuff with the brazier or power sword elsewhere. Very very potent vs the WSE and nids. Las-turrets counter suppression teams and in enough numbers melee too.

A wise WSE gets group teleport to counter it or they get base-locked. How often do you see that? But it's 100% how the MU is forced to go if you play it right. People just don't do it because it is un-meta.

Thank you very much for this. They are not only effective early on but punish compositional mistakes quite well. They are also very good to fortify even further.