Some General changes that IMO need to be done

[Ace of Swords]

Chaos

-Nurgle worship should heal daemons more than K/T worship since it has no effect on vehicles.

-When you purchase an AC on a nade launcher tic squad the AC should switch to either a nade launcher or a bolter with the standard dps of a csm model, now Im not sure how much this guy is used in melee when they get nade launchers, but someone does use him that way as it still retains a decent melee damage, but really, the tics squad without doomblast can't really do much in that aspect, and much likely the rangers when you need detection for it, it would be cool if it could still have a decent impact on the engagments.

SM

-Base cost of the Libby reduced to 40 power, it was already explained in this thread why.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=216

-Also I still belive scouts with bolters should be a viable choice, and while their dps with a sarge is pretty decent in T1 it's pretty much useless in T2 and later on, my suggestion would be a double buff that would also help sm alot vs nids while leaving pretty much untouched the other MUs in T1 as their hard counters would still easily hard counter scouts:

Merge infiltration with the Scout sarge, cost unchanged
Move Elite training to T2, cost increased to 100/25 it keeps the hp regen but now also increases the damage of the scouts bolters by 50% AND ONLY OF THE BOLTERS, before you scream OPSMFANBOY, first keep in mind this is a T2 upgrade, second according to http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... cout_squad their bolters do 7.58 dps, a 50% increase would be 3.79 making it a total of 11.37 and the total dps would be 34.1 over 3 models and 45.48 over 4 models (with sarge) and this is in T2.
For comparison a Tact squad in T1 at level 1 with 3 models does 43.74 dps.
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... rine_squad

This change would open up to a different T2 for SM aswell as 3(no tacts) or 4 scouts builds in T1.

-Signum armor's ability should be lowered to 30% damage increase, cost decreased by 5 power.

-Stimulants should no longer make you immunte to supression but they should grant 50 more energy to the APO and the damage increased from 25% to 30% (correct me I im wrong about the current damage it does) price increased from 100/25 to 125/25
Eldar

I know I already said it, but I still think they need some sorta of T2 detector.

Doom should be lowered to 30% damage, price should either remain the same or be lowered by 5 power.

WSE gate's ability should get a small buff, nothing too OP just sightly more energy regen

Orks

-I think they are overall fine at the moment but for one thing, see bottom.

IG

I think they are also overall fine, would be nice to see the psyker sub commander in t2.

Nids

-The Damage their squad leaders do should not do AV for reasons explained all over this site.

-Nids should not be able to purchase both the doom and the swarmlord, not only fluff-wise they are unique entities, but likely chaos cannot purchase both the phobos and the GUO I don't see why nids should be privileged under this aspect, especially when the Doom is so much more powerful and so much cheaper.

General things for the future

No faction should be able to field more than a single subcommander at the same time, that's because not only these units do not bleed and cause alot of bleed but also because stacking their buffs and abilities invetibily breaks the balance all over the place.







I might edit in more things if they come to my mind.

Also, about orks and eldar if you think they are lacking in some department be free to say so since my knowledge about them isn't as deep as other races.

[Asmon]

For comparison a Tact squad in T1 at level 1 with 3 models does 75 dps.

Since when bro? They do 14.58 x 3 = 43.74 DPS and in T2 with Sergeant it goes up to less than 62 DPS. So you're basically asking for Scouts to have better DPS than 4/4 vanilla TSM. Lulz.

[Ace of Swords]

woops sorry, mistaken the damage per hit with the dps for both the tacts and the scouts, gonna fix all the values.

That was derpy.

[Orkfaeller]

Would your Elite Training go together with Sniper Scouts?

[Torpid]

Chaos

-Nurgle worship should heal daemons more than K/T worship since it has no effect on vehicles.

-When you purchase an AC on a nade launcher tic squad the AC should switch to either a nade launcher or a bolter with the standard dps of a csm model, now Im not sure how much this guy is used in melee when they get nade launchers, but someone does use him that way as it still retains a decent melee damage, but really, the tics squad without doomblast can't really do much in that aspect, and much likely the rangers when you need detection for it, it would be cool if it could still have a decent impact on the engagments.

I agree with the nurlge worship. I think a bolter for the AC would be nice on the GL tics too.

SM

-Base cost of the Libby reduced to 40 power, it was already explained in this thread why.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=216

-Also I still belive scouts with bolters should be a viable choice, and while their dps with a sarge is pretty decent in T1 it's pretty much useless in T2 and later on, my suggestion would be a double buff that would also help sm alot vs nids while leaving pretty much untouched the other MUs in T1 as their hard counters would still easily hard counter scouts:

Merge infiltration with the Scout sarge, cost unchanged
Move Elite training to T2, cost increased to 100/25 it keeps the hp regen but now also increases the damage of the scouts bolters by 50% AND ONLY OF THE BOLTERS, before you scream OPSMFANBOY, first keep in mind this is a T2 upgrade, second according to http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... cout_squad their bolters do 7.58 dps, a 50% increase would be 3.79 making it a total of 11.37 and the total dps would be 34.1 over 3 models and 45.48 over 4 models (with sarge) and this is in T2.
For comparison a Tact squad in T1 at level 1 with 3 models does 43.74 dps.
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... rine_squad

This change would open up to a different T2 for SM aswell as 3(no tacts) or 4 scouts builds in T1.

I disagree that the libby should be reduced to 40 power, it's too low and way too rushable, it's hard to deal with VoT devs and the libby is oddly good at counter initiation alongside shotties. I think instead the libby's upgrades could do with a bit of toning down. VoT should be 25 power, GoI 20 power and the staff 20 power. With just GoI and VoT the guy costs as much as a dreadnought atm.

Despite seeing what you mean about the scalability of bolter scouts no way can the sergeant offer infiltration as well for 25 power.

Eldar

I know I already said it, but I still think they need some sorta of T2 detector.

Orks

-I think they are overall fine at the moment but for one thing, see bottom.

IG

I think they are also overall fine, would be nice to see the psyker sub commander in t2.

Nids

-The Damage their squad leaders do should not do AV for reasons explained all over this site.

-Nids should not be able to purchase both the doom and the swarmlord, not only fluff-wise they are unique entities, but likely chaos cannot purchase both the phobos and the GUO I don't see why nids should be privileged under this aspect, especially when the Doom is so much more powerful and so much cheaper.

Don't think there's a way to grant eldar a t2 detector without it being inherently broken at the moment, at the very least whatever unit it would be would have to be made more expensive and I don't like doing that considering their combat strength is no better. Put simply the sight range and detection of rangers makes them worth 30 power, nevermind if you use kinetic pulse well.

Well, orks are still not quite right yet. Stikks are in a bad spot and the deff dread is still a bit strong. I'de also appreciate a lowering of the painboy's default damage to 35dps instead of 50 and to give him his 50 back in t2.

IG are as good as they can be without a subcommander and with the stupid unit composition relic gave them. Honestly a Psyker would be fantastic though, so many inherent failings like early t2 aoe and ogryn support could be offered by him.

Agreed the ga(u)nt leaders are too strong. The DOM is also too strong IMO, the leech life still makes it invincible if you're not SM and have a drop-pod at hand... So yeah, getting both of those units really does present a large challenge to defeat, not to mention double leech life is absolutely LOLwtfPwned vs orks/eldar/ig.

General things for the future

No faction should be able to field more than a single subcommander at the same time, that's because not only these units do not bleed and cause a lot of bleed but also because stacking their buffs and abilities inevitably breaks the balance all over the place.

Yeah, I agree on this, the painboy, mek, weirdboy combination is a joke atm and this seems to be the only solution, other than playing apo/LA.

[Torpid]

Chaos

-Nurgle worship should heal daemons more than K/T worship since it has no effect on vehicles.

-When you purchase an AC on a nade launcher tic squad the AC should switch to either a nade launcher or a bolter with the standard dps of a csm model, now Im not sure how much this guy is used in melee when they get nade launchers, but someone does use him that way as it still retains a decent melee damage, but really, the tics squad without doomblast can't really do much in that aspect, and much likely the rangers when you need detection for it, it would be cool if it could still have a decent impact on the engagments.

I agree with the nurlge worship. I think a bolter for the AC would be nice on the GL tics too.

SM

-Base cost of the Libby reduced to 40 power, it was already explained in this thread why.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=216

-Also I still belive scouts with bolters should be a viable choice, and while their dps with a sarge is pretty decent in T1 it's pretty much useless in T2 and later on, my suggestion would be a double buff that would also help sm alot vs nids while leaving pretty much untouched the other MUs in T1 as their hard counters would still easily hard counter scouts:

Merge infiltration with the Scout sarge, cost unchanged
Move Elite training to T2, cost increased to 100/25 it keeps the hp regen but now also increases the damage of the scouts bolters by 50% AND ONLY OF THE BOLTERS, before you scream OPSMFANBOY, first keep in mind this is a T2 upgrade, second according to http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... cout_squad their bolters do 7.58 dps, a 50% increase would be 3.79 making it a total of 11.37 and the total dps would be 34.1 over 3 models and 45.48 over 4 models (with sarge) and this is in T2.
For comparison a Tact squad in T1 at level 1 with 3 models does 43.74 dps.
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... rine_squad

This change would open up to a different T2 for SM aswell as 3(no tacts) or 4 scouts builds in T1.

I disagree that the libby should be reduced to 40 power, it's too low and way too rushable, it's hard to deal with VoT devs and the libby is oddly good at counter initiation alongside shotties. I think instead the libby's upgrades could do with a bit of toning down. VoT should be 25 power, GoI 20 power and the staff 20 power. With just GoI and VoT the guy costs as much as a dreadnought atm.

Despite seeing what you mean about the scalability of bolter scouts no way can the sergeant offer infiltration as well for 25 power.

Eldar

I know I already said it, but I still think they need some sorta of T2 detector.

Orks

-I think they are overall fine at the moment but for one thing, see bottom.

IG

I think they are also overall fine, would be nice to see the psyker sub commander in t2.

Nids

-The Damage their squad leaders do should not do AV for reasons explained all over this site.

-Nids should not be able to purchase both the doom and the swarmlord, not only fluff-wise they are unique entities, but likely chaos cannot purchase both the phobos and the GUO I don't see why nids should be privileged under this aspect, especially when the Doom is so much more powerful and so much cheaper.

Don't think there's a way to grant eldar a t2 detector without it being inherently broken at the moment, at the very least whatever unit it would be would have to be made more expensive and I don't like doing that considering their combat strength is no better. Put simply the sight range and detection of rangers makes them worth 30 power, nevermind if you use kinetic pulse well.

Well, orks are still not quite right yet. Stikks are in a bad spot and the deff dread is still a bit strong. I'de also appreciate a lowering of the painboy's default damage to 35dps instead of 50 and to give him his 50 back in t2.

IG are as good as they can be without a subcommander and with the stupid unit composition relic gave them. Honestly a Psyker would be fantastic though, so many inherent failings like early t2 aoe and ogryn support could be offered by him.

Agreed the ga(u)nt leaders are too strong. The DOM is also too strong IMO, the leech life still makes it invincible if you're not SM and have a drop-pod at hand... So yeah, getting both of those units really does present a large challenge to defeat, not to mention double leech life is absolutely LOLwtfPwned vs orks/eldar/ig.

General things for the future

No faction should be able to field more than a single subcommander at the same time, that's because not only these units do not bleed and cause a lot of bleed but also because stacking their buffs and abilities inevitably breaks the balance all over the place.

Yeah, I agree on this, the painboy, mek, weirdboy combination is a joke atm and this seems to be the only solution, other than playing apo/LA.

[Torpid]

Chaos

-Nurgle worship should heal daemons more than K/T worship since it has no effect on vehicles.

-When you purchase an AC on a nade launcher tic squad the AC should switch to either a nade launcher or a bolter with the standard dps of a csm model, now Im not sure how much this guy is used in melee when they get nade launchers, but someone does use him that way as it still retains a decent melee damage, but really, the tics squad without doomblast can't really do much in that aspect, and much likely the rangers when you need detection for it, it would be cool if it could still have a decent impact on the engagments.

I agree with the nurlge worship. I think a bolter for the AC would be nice on the GL tics too.

SM

-Base cost of the Libby reduced to 40 power, it was already explained in this thread why.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=216

-Also I still belive scouts with bolters should be a viable choice, and while their dps with a sarge is pretty decent in T1 it's pretty much useless in T2 and later on, my suggestion would be a double buff that would also help sm alot vs nids while leaving pretty much untouched the other MUs in T1 as their hard counters would still easily hard counter scouts:

Merge infiltration with the Scout sarge, cost unchanged
Move Elite training to T2, cost increased to 100/25 it keeps the hp regen but now also increases the damage of the scouts bolters by 50% AND ONLY OF THE BOLTERS, before you scream OPSMFANBOY, first keep in mind this is a T2 upgrade, second according to http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... cout_squad their bolters do 7.58 dps, a 50% increase would be 3.79 making it a total of 11.37 and the total dps would be 34.1 over 3 models and 45.48 over 4 models (with sarge) and this is in T2.
For comparison a Tact squad in T1 at level 1 with 3 models does 43.74 dps.
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... rine_squad

This change would open up to a different T2 for SM aswell as 3(no tacts) or 4 scouts builds in T1.

I disagree that the libby should be reduced to 40 power, it's too low and way too rushable, it's hard to deal with VoT devs and the libby is oddly good at counter initiation alongside shotties. I think instead the libby's upgrades could do with a bit of toning down. VoT should be 25 power, GoI 20 power and the staff 20 power. With just GoI and VoT the guy costs as much as a dreadnought atm.

Despite seeing what you mean about the scalability of bolter scouts no way can the sergeant offer infiltration as well for 25 power.

Eldar

I know I already said it, but I still think they need some sorta of T2 detector.

Orks

-I think they are overall fine at the moment but for one thing, see bottom.

IG

I think they are also overall fine, would be nice to see the psyker sub commander in t2.

Nids

-The Damage their squad leaders do should not do AV for reasons explained all over this site.

-Nids should not be able to purchase both the doom and the swarmlord, not only fluff-wise they are unique entities, but likely chaos cannot purchase both the phobos and the GUO I don't see why nids should be privileged under this aspect, especially when the Doom is so much more powerful and so much cheaper.

Don't think there's a way to grant eldar a t2 detector without it being inherently broken at the moment, at the very least whatever unit it would be would have to be made more expensive and I don't like doing that considering their combat strength is no better. Put simply the sight range and detection of rangers makes them worth 30 power, nevermind if you use kinetic pulse well.

Well, orks are still not quite right yet. Stikks are in a bad spot and the deff dread is still a bit strong. I'de also appreciate a lowering of the painboy's default damage to 35dps instead of 50 and to give him his 50 back in t2.

IG are as good as they can be without a subcommander and with the stupid unit composition relic gave them. Honestly a Psyker would be fantastic though, so many inherent failings like early t2 aoe and ogryn support could be offered by him.

Agreed the ga(u)nt leaders are too strong. The DOM is also too strong IMO, the leech life still makes it invincible if you're not SM and have a drop-pod at hand... So yeah, getting both of those units really does present a large challenge to defeat, not to mention double leech life is absolutely LOLwtfPwned vs orks/eldar/ig.

General things for the future

No faction should be able to field more than a single subcommander at the same time, that's because not only these units do not bleed and cause a lot of bleed but also because stacking their buffs and abilities inevitably breaks the balance all over the place.

Yeah, I agree on this, the painboy, mek, weirdboy combination is a joke atm and this seems to be the only solution, other than playing apo/LA.
[/quote]

[Ace of Swords]

Added a few more things.

Despite seeing what you mean about the scalability of bolter scouts no way can the sergeant offer infiltration as well for 25 power.

Now let's be totally honest here, scouts with OR without upgrades, are the second weakest starting unit in the game and the worst one when it comes to scaling, beside the merged infiltration would only change the nid MU since they you would actually be able to fight termas like that and not get raped on approach, against everyone else you would still lose, AC tics would still win,Sents,GMs,DAs,Sluggas would still easily chase you once you are revealed by your shots, and dedicated counters as rangers would still hardcounter scouts to oblivion, except that now they scouts could abit more useful vs them since they won't have to invest more than twice of their power cost to do what rangers do basically for free.

And about bolter scouts, not only to open up to new builds and more shooty power which the SM should be about compared to chaos which is more melee orinted and can use it to get easy squad wipes, but they would still cost 175/50 to put that kind of dps in T2 so that's not cheap it all.

[Torpid]

Well for starters it means having a scout sarge forces a detector or suppression teams will be useless and it means early suppression teams wipes will be very easy. Not to mention infiltration is amazing on scouts anyway due to their crazy high speed. Scouts don't need to be winning engagements if they can constantly avoid them, picking off the models of the enemy's capping squads and de-capping their naturals.

[Ace of Swords]

The problem is that they are barely able to pick off models, you can just keep your vanilla tics under scout fire for the time required to cap a point and won't lose a model, meanwhile all other squads that can answer to your fire will kill you, that said I don't see why you would get a setup team vs SM as first choice EVER, rangers,NM,catas or spotters,asm,painboy etc... are all vastly suprerior choices.

Beside the fact that the sarge is still 25 power so just 5 less than a setup team and doesn't add another unit to your rooster to keep up with the map and pressure, if you have any detector near the setup team you will spot and suppress the scouts before they are in nade range.

[Forestradio]

Wouldn't mind a T2 combat upgrade for scouts that at the same time reduces their speed.
Makes them worse at utility, capping, kiting, etc, but helps them take a bit more ranged firepower from double shootas, tcsm, etc

Call it something like Black Carapace? Increases health by 30 per model, with a small speed nerf? Just throwing out ideas.

As for giving eldar another detector, it could be another upgrade to dire avengers maybe. detecting shees is meh, and there really isn't another unit that they could use for it.

[Dark Riku]

Dire avengers are already one of the best ranged units out there. Making them detectors too would be silly.

Stikks are great. I use them very frequently as Orks.

[Orkfaeller]

Well Wraithguard have a Warlock leader who, one could argue, would make sense to be a dedector.

But I dont think it would synergiese all that great with freaking Wraithguard.

[Forestradio]

Dire avengers are already one of the best ranged units out there. Making them detectors too would be silly.

Stikks are great. I use them very frequently as Orks.

It wouldn't be an automatic thing. You would have to buy their aspect and possibly their exarch as well, so it would only be an option in T2. Just throwing it out there.
Shootas are a pretty good ranged unit, and they detect...............

The changelog has the changes for stikks. Their normal bombs got nerfed (they were OP in retail) but they got more health, more melee damage, more melee skill, and better stun bombs. They're a more versatile unit now.

[Torpid]

From Tex's official balance thread

"Stikks are UP. I don't actually think stikks themselves underperform as a unit. In fact, balance wise I think they are fine. However the issue with them is that their price doesn't fit in with the ork eco. Ultimately artillery units are only secondary unit purchases in t2 and they won't carry your t2 alone. The issue however is that all of the ork t2 is req intensive bar the deff dread, although that doesn't count for it's power wiping capabilities. Bustas cost 300 req, the trukk costs ~200 req, the webo 400 and stikks 360. You can't purchase stikks because of this, you severely imbalance your economy which is further req dry due to the fact that all ork t1 units bleed disproportionate amounts of req compared to power. I would make stikks cost 280/35. I feel stikks costing 360 req would be like if P devs cost 30 power."

If avengers were to get detection it would have to cost 20 power because avengers are very useful unit which does good vs all enemy types and can whiz around the map with speed. Given it cost 20 power, totally independent of any other upgrades I would be fine with it. The default warlock certainly cannot detect, he's 15 power -_-

Also, shootas aren't nowhere near as mobile as avengers, nor do they get nades or shields which help them a lot.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Since the current Nurgle Workshipp don't scale very well in T2 and T3 I would suggest that the hp/s would passively increase with Tiers.

For example:
- In T1, Nurgle Workshipp heal 3.5 hp/s.
- In T2, 5 hp/s.
- In T3, 6 hp/s.

The hp/s regeneration in daemons will stay like now.

About the Heretics AC weapons with Grenade Launchers: I agree with give to the AC a non-Eternal War CSM bolter ranged damage/melee damage one.

GL AC Heretics are really rarely used in melee. Maybe in T1 against an unupgraded Dire Avengers squad/guardmen or to force melee with an enemy hwt. But besides that, almost never I used GL AC heretics in melee.

Well, one time I win against an unupgrade dire avengers squad with a GL Heretics in melee combat

[Orkfaeller]

Ya, they are reallly not ment for melee. ( So I guess a Bolter Champion might be more fitting )

Best indication for it that they dont even have melee animations.
( and melee heretics dont have fireing animations )
I really dont understand how relic got so lazy on heretics. :I

[Dark Riku]

And grenade launcher heretics need this sudden buff because?
It's fine as it is imo.

The thing I'd like to see fixed is the ones without nade launchers running forwards like retards to get into weapon range :p (When not using attack ground.)
Use the way scouts work for this? Would be perfect since they don't have another upgrade with a different range to make this ineffective.

[Asmon]

Nurgle worship might be worse in T2, but Nurgle shrine is by far the best shrine and it becomes even stronger when tics are praying. I'd call that balance.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

And grenade launcher heretics need this sudden buff because?
It's fine as it is imo.

The thing I'd like to see fixed is the ones without nade launchers running forwards like retards to get into weapon range :p (When not using attack ground.)
Use the way scouts work for this? Would be perfect since they don't have another upgrade with a different range to make this ineffective.

More than buff is a weapon adjustment, to base the squad weapons to their adequate role. With this change GL AC are going to be more effective in ranged combat, of course, but also even more weak in melee combat because the AC will lose all his melee capabilities.

Nurgle worship might be worse in T2, but Nurgle shrine is by far the best shrine and it becomes even stronger when tics are praying. I'd call that balance.

What kind of argument is that? It's like said that all the Eldar units should have a lower base speed because with upgrades half Eldar roster have Teleport/Fleet of Foot and because Eldar have the Webway Gates.

Seriously, Nurgle Shrine is good, that's true. But it's not free, as it seems you're saying. And have lot of things to consider before you planned to buy it.

[Asmon]

What kind of argument is that? It's like said that all the Eldar units should have a lower base speed because with upgrades half Eldar roster have Teleport/Fleet of Foot and because Eldar have the Webway Gates.

No, that's just stupid. To what are you comparing Eldar in this case? I was making a comparison between Chaos' ways of worship and shrines. Each Chaos hero has access to the same units so it is relevant.

[Dark Riku]

More than buff is a weapon adjustment, to base the squad weapons to their adequate role. With this change GL AC are going to be more effective in ranged combat, of course, but also even more weak in melee combat because the AC will lose all his melee capabilities.

No it isn't. It would be a straight up buff. You aren't using these thing in melee.

And yeah your example makes no sense Nikhel -.-

[Torpid]

Well it isn't a straight up buff as they would lose melee capabilities and the AC does do some melee dps, in fact the other day I actually wiped a guardian squad on retail with GL tics w/ AC in melee and the AC got the kill, nonetheless, I think such talk is pointless.

The argument:
P1 - The aspiring champion for heretics costs 25 power due to how well he synergises with melee tics.
P2 - If heretics started off with grenade launchers + autoguns then the AC wouldn't cost 25 power, but only 20 or something similar as half of it's utility isn't there so it wouldn't cost as much.
P3 - therefore the current aspiring champion is overpriced for the role he offers for grenade launcher heretics. This is the case because lowering his cost would make him too effective when used with melee tics.
C1 - So my conclusion is that it would make sense to change the way the AC functions when he is part of a GL tic squad. Namely to give him a 7dps bolter or something similar, just so he warrants the cost more and fits in with the unit more, without being OP for the GL tic squad or the melee tic squad.

[Dark Riku]

If you make him not detect and not die last sure go ahead. -.-

[Forestradio]

What's wrong with taking away the last shred of GL tics melee competence and replacing it with basically a scout bolter?
Would it really make that big of a difference? 7 dps is not exactly a huge gamechanger..............

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

What kind of argument is that? It's like said that all the Eldar units should have a lower base speed because with upgrades half Eldar roster have Teleport/Fleet of Foot and because Eldar have the Webway Gates.

No, that's just stupid. To what are you comparing Eldar in this case? I was making a comparison between Chaos' ways of worship and shrines. Each Chaos hero has access to the same units so it is relevant.

Yeah, all the Chaos commanders have access to the same units. But differents Workshipps and Shrines. So, Chaos Lord balance, for example, isn't affected if Nurgle Workshipp gives +3.5 hps or +35 hps. Chaos Lord don't benefit from Nurgle Workshipp, even in team games. So compairing Nurgle workshipp/shrine with any other workshipp it's pointless.

Where I'm comparing Eldars with anything? You simply don't think Nurgle Workshipp will need a buff because in T2 Plague Champion have access to Nurgle Shrine, which in part makes no sense.

Don't misunderstood me, Nurgle Shrine it's a good Shrine. The reinforce in field (even if you need a heretic squad workshipping it) it's a blessing to the slow Chaos roster. The healing too.

But Nurgle Shrine it's a situacional map-dependent buy which without your army can't defend even a little by itself, which adds an additional work/role to Heretics, a squad which is already overbooked of roles and it's expensive in req cost but even more in pop cost, something that Chaos is in the edge of the sword, with powerful but very pop expensive squads with squad leaders.

So say that because Plague Champion can buy Nurgle Shrines the Nurgle Workshipp can't be progresively improved with Tiers it's a very weak argument.

More than buff is a weapon adjustment, to base the squad weapons to their adequate role. With this change GL AC are going to be more effective in ranged combat, of course, but also even more weak in melee combat because the AC will lose all his melee capabilities.

No it isn't. It would be a straight up buff. You aren't using these thing in melee.

And yeah your example makes no sense Nikhel -.-

I have to suppose then that his powerful melee damage it's a wasted since he doesn't engage melee combat with GL heretics. Should not be changed then? It's not a good deal to decrease a lot his melee capabilities and give them an adequate weapon to fulfill his role?

You are overreacting a bit, Dark Riku.

[Dark Riku]

You are overreacting a bit, Dark Riku.

No I'm not -.- Wanna see me overreact? Keep doing what you are doing then.
How is giving a ranged squad more ranged dps not a straight up buff? °_O

[Forestradio]

And we all know this board's perspective on buffing things.
It usually looks something like this:

[Torpid]

Yeah, just totally ignore my argument then and just keep vomiting semantics.

[Nurland]

Calm down people. Keep it civil.