Dawn of War Codex

Considering that every other superunit provide alot more utility than the BB, and that the uniqueness of hte IG BB is that it's a sponge that can also putout damange, is it really necessary to gut its damage and just make it sponge that people can ignore?

newtonia wrote:Considering that every other superunit provide alot more utility than the BB, and that the uniqueness of hte IG BB is that it's a sponge that can also putout damange, is it really necessary to gut its damage and just make it sponge that people can ignore?

Also, If I can add, what's with the added 10 power to catachans? just lower the price of energy of demoman if you want to see it used, the good thing about catas is that it's a fast respo to melee heavy builds. heck I would even reject the damange increase for just letting the demoman cost 5 or 10 less power.

The baneblade change is not a nerf.

As far as 1v1 is concerned it comes out way quicker which means that you can now viably get it when before you very very rarely could.

In 3v3 it was more common to see baneblades but nevertheless they do still make you lose VPs when waiting for them to get out so it coming out earlier is nicer. But also in 3v3 your BBs, when they do come out, are more likely to die since nukes are a thing and getting triple pushed is quite likely to gib a slow moving fat vehicle. So the fact that it isn't so "all-in" a purchase is actually a good thing I feel.

Its bolters and lascannons still do the same damage. Its main cannon still does huge chunks of damage per shot that seriously dents most squads and vehicles and its demolisher cannon is still forcing off squads instantly or straight up wiping them. It has a clearly defined role now as a heavy weapons platform. You park it up with minimal support in an area and it covers that area in an arc in front of it making sure if the enemy attacks from that direction they are heavily punished. It is far stronger on defense than it is offence. And better against mass armies than it is countering enemy tanks.

However it becomes far more vulnerable to pincer attacks, especially by heavy melee. And while in a head-on fight no tank can come close to taking it on, the baneblade cannot chase down tanks whereas with the right timing tanks can chase down the baneblade to finish it off quite easily. So, treat it like a giant d-cannon I'd say. That's the role it is meant to have. It isn't meant to kill everything on its own. Just like any tank in real life - they need support. Demo-charges, mines on the ground, explosives that target under-armour or over-armour, whatever it is. You don't just send a tank in on an open battlefield on its own. You support it. And with support the current baneblade kicks utter ass, just as it did before. Saw it on stream the other day even, make one VP utterly impossible for the enemies to take with a few heavy bolter weapon teams supporting and 2x guardsmen + a repair bunker.

All these traits clearly contrast with your leman which due to its speed and straight-up damage output is better at targetting single squads or vehicles. The range and speed granted by the vanquisher cannon is your primary tank destroyer in T3. It is less susceptible to melee due to its speed and smaller size and that also helps it avoid flanks. But it just cannot do enough damage to an oncoming army to remotely compete with the baneblade - nor can it absorb as much frontal punishment. The roles are quite distinct in my opinion.

newtonia wrote:Also, If I can add, what's with the added 10 power to catachans? just lower the price of energy of demoman if you want to see it used, the good thing about catas is that it's a fast respo to melee heavy builds. heck I would even reject the damange increase for just letting the demoman cost 5 or 10 less power.

The catachan changes too are mostly buffs.

Yes, there is an increased price which results in them coming out a little later and bleeding a little more. But when they do come out they have a lot more impact now. Immediately having higher hp and doing significantly more damage. They are actually very close to retail damage! But of course with a weaker ol' reliable and more models making them more susceptible to aoe and bleed.

Anyway, the changes in general are to help catachans scale better into the later game. Higher damage, cheaper overall with full upgrades, less cost on sarge, etc. You do have to sacrifice getting them out as early and that was intentional. I feel an IG should be able to wade off melee threats easy enough until they can get catachans using their sentinel and hero. If you really need hard anti-melee then get a heavy weapons team instead. They are better anti-melee than cats and come out sooner.

Torpid wrote:
In 3v3 it was more common to see baneblades
Its bolters and lascannons still do the same damage. Its main cannon still does huge chunks of damage per shot that seriously dents most squads and vehicles and its demolisher cannon is still forcing off squads instantly or straight up wiping them. It has a clearly defined role now as a heavy weapons platform. You park it up with minimal support in an area and it covers that area in an arc in front of it making sure if the enemy attacks from that direction they are heavily punished. It is far stronger on defense than it is offence. And better against mass armies than it is countering enemy tanks.

However it becomes far more vulnerable to pincer attacks, especially by heavy melee. And while in a head-on fight no tank can come close to taking it on, the baneblade cannot chase down tanks whereas with the right timing tanks can chase down the baneblade to finish it off quite easily. So, treat it like a giant d-cannon I'd say. That's the role it is meant to have. It isn't meant to kill everything on its own. Just like any tank in real life - they need support. Demo-charges, mines on the ground, explosives that target under-armour or over-armour, whatever it is. You don't just send a tank in on an open battlefield on its own. You support it.

IG baneblade was always vulnerable to pincer attacks, one of the more easier super units to counter.
and ofcourse all superunits are supposed to be supported, that's a necessary. but given that all other super units provide utility while the BB doesn't, makes it a rubbish choice in the last patch and now that it's damange been nerf, its still a rubbish choice now. since I could still lock down a point with a lehman and corresponding HWT with higher chance of surviving a pincer or a ult.
and the baneblade was always used to block points, that's its sole intent, reducing its damange was uncessary, given that the massive nerfs behind the lehmans and the IG upkeep.

Also in regards to the cata, the sole play for IG in t1 is to ensure that his cata units receive less bleed as possible. It didn't matter if it had the smoke grenade or the mine since those are easily countered by any true sight unit or by just micro-ing out of the situation of the smoke. heck rarely even used it since its so situational. And it didn't even aid in the t2 scalling, it easily bleeds against grenade fire, which it's suceptible against given its range, It now lacks its ability to soft counter jump units since it bleeds so easily and it reduces its ability to wipe squads since its ole-reliable is nerfed.
In essence, its been made less effective for all of its past roles. Cata's weren't even overpowered last patch and its scalling was fine as well with the sargent buy.

and what's up with the 75 increase in rec, IG is already been nerfed significantly, removing its passive DR, reducing its sight range, In essence, we're still paying for a much weaker elite tank crew upgrade.

BB aside, the cata changes represent a huge buff. The demo man upgrade functionally reduced from 75/20 to 50/10 is a big deal, on top of 15% extra ranged damage and sily smooth sarge scaling. Trying to spin those changes as a nerf is disingenuous.

BB was an unplayable piece of trash in 3v3 and 1v1. I haven't had a chance to use it in 2.6, but there's no way these changes were a nerf, and if they were, try to focus on what aspects of the BB need some buffs. Lower cost is a super big deal in a world where 2 Russ was ALWAYS better in the previous patch.

Cyris wrote:BB aside, the cata changes represent a huge buff. The demo man upgrade functionally reduced from 75/20 to 50/10 is a big deal, on top of 15% extra ranged damage and sily smooth sarge scaling. Trying to spin those changes as a nerf is disingenuous.

BB was an unplayable piece of trash in 3v3 and 1v1. I haven't had a chance to use it in 2.6, but there's no way these changes were a nerf, and if they were, try to focus on what aspects of the BB need some buffs. Lower cost is a super big deal in a world where 2 Russ was ALWAYS better in the previous patch.

yeah, you are right on the cata changes, Sorry about that
although I would still argue that baneblade should atleast either retain health or damange, I would pay extra 100 rec and 20 power for the same health or damange imho

Cyris wrote:BB aside, the cata changes represent a huge buff. The demo man upgrade functionally reduced from 75/20 to 50/10 is a big deal, on top of 15% extra ranged damage and sily smooth sarge scaling. Trying to spin those changes as a nerf is disingenuous.

BB was an unplayable piece of trash in 3v3 and 1v1. I haven't had a chance to use it in 2.6, but there's no way these changes were a nerf, and if they were, try to focus on what aspects of the BB need some buffs. Lower cost is a super big deal in a world where 2 Russ was ALWAYS better in the previous patch.

Especially on a race that simply doesn't need 30 power catachans to counter melee.

Get another sent. Get the brazier or power sword. Get a HWT. All of those things are way better vs melee than catachans and you should get first so the change of catachans to 30 to 35 power doesn't at all screw IG over. Honestly, I think they would be fine even at 40!

Catachans were not overperforming, hence why they did get buffed. The changes definitely are a buff. That was the whole point. But buffs need not be as simplistic as "just make them do more damage/cost less".

Before you NEEDED the demo-man to beat certain squads like burna sluggas or aspect shees in T1. That cost you more than they do now, yet now you get an even stronger squad since they do more damage too.

Torpid wrote:
Especially on a race that simply doesn't need 30 power catachans to counter melee.

Get another sent. Get the brazier or power sword. Get a HWT. All of those things are way better vs melee than catachans and you should get first so the change of catachans to 30 to 35 power doesn't at all screw IG over. Honestly, I think they would be fine even at 40!

Catachans were not overperforming, hence why they did get buffed. The changes definitely are a buff. That was the whole point. But buffs need not be as simplistic as "just make them do more damage/cost less".

Before you NEEDED the demo-man to beat certain squads like burna sluggas or aspect shees in T1. That cost you more than they do now, yet now you get an even stronger squad since they do more damage too.

they are at 40 power, also you didn't need demo man to beat burna sluggas or aspect shees, just plain ole cata is fine, demoman is only good for breaking suppression and setting traps that can easily be countered by keen sight unit.

newtonia wrote:they are at 40 power, also you didn't need demo man to beat burna sluggas or aspect shees, just plain ole cata is fine, demoman is only good for breaking suppression and setting traps that can easily be countered by keen sight unit.

No, you would lose 1 on 1. You needed the demo-man for the HP he granted. I thought it was 40 power, for some reason the patch notes said 35, but it was meant to be 40 power all along. Good stuff

I witnessed a game where somebody pumped out 3 Baneblades in 1 game yesterday (and lost them all at breathtaking speed). I think that at least answers the question of how accessible it is now. Would this person have supported it better then the first one could have easily won them the game. It is as Torpid says: Park it somewhere in a defensive position and relax.

i think that cost reduction is pretty good for bb

Not sure why people think the BB is somehow not distinct enough from the Leman Russ... I've bought BB several times this patch and it still clearly provides more brute force than any russ variant.