Dawn of War Codex

Dire avenger quad and triple units are no strange feat in this game, however lets analyze this:
Dire avenger squad 270 req: Low durability but high DPS
Dire avenger Aspect: 65 req and 15 power
-Gives you a nice 20% hp up: Makes them durable and basically almost a point and click unit that
-Gives you fleet of foot and nades: Potential counters to jump, artillery, close combat and Set up teams.
-Gives you perfect cover shields: Great synergy whit Guardian Set up teams and to be honest, whit every unit in the game, meele to take cover and then ambush any close combat unit that gets foolishly close, and for ranged, literally giving the middle finger to the attackers, o did they outflank us? lets just switch sides!, they got a sentinel, chaos lord and bother captain? FOCUS FIRE, Sentinel retreats but dies thanks to the warp spider teleport, farseer's guide, or in hilarious scenarios, the destructor.

My suggestion, i tried to post a total comparison BETWEEN IG AND ELDAR TRIPLE DIRE AVENGERS BUILDS, but sadly this thing didnt allow me since for some reason i was logged out wich didnt allow me to post my full point of view and completely erased my star calculations, investment and best of all, actual battle scenarios wich took ME 2 HOURS, becouse of a reason i was logged out when i wanted to post a new topic, when i had seen the chat balloons COLLORED (wich means that you are logged in).

So the only thing that can say about this is simple:
-If you micro to dodge nades you get: Focused by the other 2 dire avenger squads wich it means heavy damage, and i am not even including their commanders.
-If you micro to dodge destructors: Same like whit nades, worse is that destructors rarely misses vs blob squads (RIP nids and IG)
-If you go for HW: YOU INVEST TO GET NADED. And if you go 2, warlock will use inmolate or his cancer ranged spear, warp spider will simply tele meele the 2nd unit covering the first, and the farseer just gets rangers
-IF YOU ACTUALLY WIN THE FIRST ENGAGEMENTS: 2 shuriken set up teams say hi and whit shields they also put the middle finger on you.

In other terms, i suggest doing this

Aspect of the dire avenger:
65 req and 20 power

I am just asking for a 5 power cost increase, 5... POWER(No this is not an old spice commercial) for all the benefits this wargear gives.

Of course i would like to see the point of view on this fromt this awesome community and even if i love it, please, dont be inmature and put the "l2p" becouse if you want an statement, I STRESS MYSELF, MICRO WHIT EVERYTHING I GOT, TO A POINT WHERE I USE ALL MY BRAIN CELLS, TO DODGE THE NADES WHEN THE ELDAR GETS OFFENSIVE, TO JUST END UP GETTING 1 SQUAD WIPPED DUE to focused fire, or simply having my squads whit few models and a literal 12% of their hp left.

Please, dont let this game become Starcraft 2.5, where the only way to play, is whit spam builds.

let me just ask one thing have you ever played a 1v1 or is this a team game post?

I think +5 power might be ok, but I won't know until I've played a lot more 2.6. The DA changes altered the unit in a really impactful way, I think further nerfs would be too hasty.

Guardians were continually buffed in elite mod for years but they never really needed it.

That said, there are lots of counters and I don't really think it's a balance issue. Just more evidence of power creep in ELITE versus Retail.

The Great Kenny wrote:...

You realize the Battle Equipment wasn't buffed at all, right? DA were nerfed, and some of their stats are returned via purchasing the upgrade. If anything, it was nerfed pretty heavily given that it's now a must-buy, making Eldar T1 much more power expensive, and seriously punishing 3x Dire Avenger builds.

Adding another 10-15 power on top of the 15-30 (given you didn't have to buy this on more than one in T1 previously) would be huge.

As i said before, this page completely deleted my post, where i posted a great example of both team games and 1 v 1, but this time i went for just team games, and you may ask,"Why do your teammates not help?" easy, they must be busy whit their own rival, dont want to get involved in DA triple spams, or busy in the menu searching for the concede button, "Why do you just dont change lanes?" i usually do that when the situation gets from just micro intensive to cancerous (Double guardian HW team), we dominate a lane, but the eldar completely dominate my natural power or VP, fortifying it whit fucking perfect cover shields, a power node, and if the eldar feels like it, goes in the back, bashes another natural power farm and retreat-nades everything, howeverm since i didnt include flamer and meele squads running around the map bashing power, it's not a 1 v 1 main post. There is your main answer and future answers.

Kvn, you forget that fleet of foot basically has the potential to dodge artillery spotter shells, assault jumps and give the middle finger to meele squads and close combat squads, the shields give you a great lane control potential, grenades are good at forcing troops to move out of cover or just get wiped out or have heavy bleeding, its not just about the HP buff, also YOU FORGET THAT ORK SHOOTAS COST 270 and while they make up for HP compared to Dire Assvengers, they have bad DPS compared to the dire assvengers, the point is however, dire avengers get a bunch of abilities that make them be able to counter almost every tier 1 unit from every race, so basically 270 is worth for a unit that has low durability, BUT DEALS A LOT OF DPS.

da are fine now 500 heath between 5 guys = 100 is not a lot they bleed like shit 27 rec per da to reinforce and without upgrades come midway in t1 and above they just bleed. with their aspect get their old heath back 600 in 2.5 with fleet and nades used to get 33% heath back in the old days which was 666 heath before someone made da leader in t1 which mean eldar have to spend power on them or just have bleed squad in the mid game

Question boss, if all dire avengers get the battle equipment and start focusing your commander then your weakest units? Wich specialist units you would invest on?

The Great Kenny wrote:Question boss, if all dire avengers get the battle equipment and start focusing your commander then your weakest units? Wich specialist units you would invest on?

Melee spam or jump units. Or even dedicated ranged spam works really.

The Great Kenny wrote:Kvn, you forget that fleet of foot basically has the potential to dodge artillery spotter shells, assault jumps and give the middle finger to meele squads and close combat squads,

And? Given that none of these are specifically meant to destroy DA (though all can be used to if done properly) but rather the GWT, it doesn't seem that there is much issue with Fleet being useful against them. Besides, if the Eldar player uses Fleet in an engagement, it means you're pretty much going to force him off given he just cut out most of his ranged dps.

The Great Kenny wrote:the shields give you a great lane control potential,

While forcing you to remain perfectly static, which is a a big issue for a race which is so dependent on mobility.

The Great Kenny wrote:grenades are good at forcing troops to move out of cover or just get wiped out or have heavy bleeding,

While also forcing the Dire Avengers out of cover, and exposing them to bleed/wipe from enemy fire. Grenades aren't that hard to dodge, and retreat grenades are some pretty skill-shot based maneuvers. It sucks to have them used against you, but they're really not as good as you're making them out to be.

The Great Kenny wrote:its not just about the HP buff, also YOU FORGET THAT ORK SHOOTAS COST 270 and while they make up for HP compared to Dire Assvengers,

Ork shootas also deal significantly more dps, have said dps focused on a pair of models so they don't get a massive damage drop off when units die like the DA do, and have a much more powerful leader during T1, while being supported by a stronger economy to replace their losses.

The Great Kenny wrote:they have bad DPS compared to the dire assvengers,

...What...?

The Great Kenny wrote:the point is however, dire avengers get a bunch of abilities that make them be able to counter almost every tier 1 unit from every race,

No. It doesn't. It makes them a micro-intensive utility knife. They certainly don't counter the units from all other races. You're exaggerating quite a bit here.

The Great Kenny wrote: so basically 270 is worth for a unit that has low durability, BUT DEALS A LOT OF DPS.

That's the point. They, like most Eldar units, are a glass cannon.

I warned you fuckers about this shit

Psycho wrote:I warned you fuckers about this shit

You did what now?

I'm not going to lie, OP smells just a litttle bit of bias here. I hate Eldar just as much as anyone, but 3 DA builds are just objectively weaker now.

Atlas wrote:You did what now?

What, don't you remember the time I talked to you about issues inevitably popping up due to BE getting even more stuff and the price remaining the same? That ended up with the idea of splitting BE into two upgrades for easier balancing and picking what's needed at the time?

You guys remember that Aspect of Avenger used to perform this exact same function right? I remember people literally complaining that it was being changed from that. Where were all you people crying about how op it was then?

It is funny since I, as eldar player, struggle most against IG when the map is very open and there is little flanking opportunity. Banshees and rangers are pretty much useless against IG, so you are left with DA and shurikens, units which are both power hungry.

You complain against grenades? Well imo grenades are also pretty useless against IG, since even if you hit very well you will get 4 or 5 models at most. Getting a perfect hit on units of other races might mean a wipe - thats way scarier. The range of grenades is also pretty short and I'm forced to buy them now, even though they are not very effective against IG.
In comparison, if you get caught by Ol' Unreliable - which is undodgeable - dire avengers not only suffer some decent damage, but they also get thrown out of cover. A little bit of focus fire and you have to instantly retreat - with losses mind you.
I do agree that shields are very effective though. But that means you will have to hold the position first. There are some games where I am constantly pushed back and dont even have an opportunity to set up shields. But shields are also not uncounterable: Flanking, Ol'Unreliable, Smoke, whatever.

If you get shurikens, IG has two units against setup teams - catachans and spotters. Most of the time you can however just outshoot a lone shuriken as long as is not in cover. So I cannot see why you have so much trouble with shuriken. Eldar can only counter setup team of IG with grenades, since buying rangers is not a smart choice. And even if you get hit by a grenade, the weapons team can just tank it since there are so many models which are dispersed enough so that a grenade wont wipe it. Also if you use Fleet of Foot to quickly close the distance the grenade does 40% less damage.

If you go triple dire avengers, that is hard to micro well and a very heavy power investment. So you can just rush T2 in response. Also 3 blobbed dire avengers getting caught by Ol' Unreliable sends you to the stone age in terms of req cost for reinforcement.

Also warp spiders against IG? Thats a strange choice. They are not very effective against swarmy races since whenever they gib a model they stop shooting for a brief amount of time. In a high model squad that happens often enough to severely cripple their dps.

And I am not complaining either, since it is only T1 where I have real trouble. Also how T1 goes heavily depends on my hero choice, on the hero of the IG and on the map, so it can also go very differently. T2 is whole different story though. As long as I can hold my own in T1, I'm rewarded with Wraith Guards and Psychic Storm, which completely changes the tide.

I'm speaking on a 3v3 perspective when going against IG in a lane.

Kvn wrote:And? Given that none of these are specifically meant to destroy DA (though all can be used to if done properly) but rather the GWT, it doesn't seem that there is much issue with Fleet being useful against them. Besides, if the Eldar player uses Fleet in an engagement, it means you're pretty much going to force him off given he just cut out most of his ranged dps.

Fleet is incredibly userfull vs set up teams in general, since your unit is focusing fire on 1 target, the other two will use fleet of foot, the affected unit retreats or goes into heavy cover, while you just had to pack up your Set up team or retreat it.

Kvn wrote:While forcing you to remain perfectly static, which is a a big issue for a race which is so dependent on mobility.

Who said that the shields forced you to stay static when you can simply leave the possition you just dominated, rape the other player, and bang, make more shields, replace the ones from your lane. Blah Blah Blah.

Kvn wrote:While also forcing the Dire Avengers out of cover, and exposing them to bleed/wipe from enemy fire. Grenades aren't that hard to dodge, and retreat grenades are some pretty skill-shot based maneuvers. It sucks to have them used against you, but they're really not as good as you're making them out to be.

Yes, i agree, grenades are not a big deal to dodge whit non set up teams, however lets talk about 3 dire avengers focusing fire on the squad while a warlock uses destructor on them, distracts another one of the ranged units while the enemy player is more worried about focusing DA in fear that a squad gets wiped whit pure DPS.

Kvn wrote:Ork shootas also deal significantly more dps, have said dps focused on a pair of models so they don't get a massive damage drop off when units die like the DA do, and have a much more powerful leader during T1, while being supported by a stronger economy to replace their losses.

I will just leave this here......

-DA natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 Req - 27 req reinforce cost - upkeep 5.1
*Unit hp: 500 hp (100 per model)
*Speed: 5.5
*Rotation: 1000
*Ranged DPS: 8.75 dps per model - 43.75 Total squad damage per second
*Meele DPS: 6.67

*Battle equipment or aspect of the dire avenger: 65 req 15 power
+20% hp increase (120 each morel now)

Fleet of foot (Yes it takes out basically any chance of them at dealing any damage at ranged, but, it makes easier for them to get close and nade Set up teams, at the moment you see an ASpotter shell, use this and nothing happens, see an assault marine squad, wait for them to make a small twitch, use it and again nothing happened while you gained a defensive possition, got in cover and give the middle finger)

Grenades (Good at being spooky and at killing units in retreat)

Shields (Incredibly good defensive gear that doesnt ACT like FUCKING CHAINS OF TORMENT so that doesnt limit any of eldar mobility unless the player is a full camper)

335 req 15 power squad:

Now whit the DA exarch you get:
*A model whit 250 HP
*costs 85 req and 15 power making the squad cost 420 req and 30 power - upkeep 7.65 req
*Vision just to make rangers unnecesary when countering infiltrators.
*Has good combat capabilities in meele

-Ork Shootas natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 req -27 req reinforce cost -upkeep 5.1 (At the moment everything goes equal for the DA and shoota squads)
*Unit hp: 600 hp (120 per model, ork shootas outclass DA in terms of durability here)
*Speed: 5 (DA slighly outclasses the ork shoota here)
*Rotation: 1000 (Finally a tie)
*Ranged DPS: 7 DPS - 35 total DPS from the squad (Cough cough, so you said ork shootas dealt more ranged damage.... Cough)
*Meele DPS: 8 DPS (Ork shootas do slightly win there, but who would be so foolish to send his shootas to meele a DA blob? Well unless the DA are foolishly ON the other side of cover against orks, unless of course they had already wiped out or forced a slugga squad to retreat)

*Big shoota upgrade: 75 req 20 power

FROM 7 DPS PER MODEL to 15.27 DPS, good at making short work of infantry.

Increases range from 38 to 41, further supports their DPS potential vs infantry.

And? ASpotters and Jump troops just made this investment unnecessary.
Also they rely on natural cover from the map, they cant constantly make cover like if they where DA or GM squads, wich it means, once it was destroyed, you need to totally depend on your big shootas range.

Squad total : 345 req 20 power

Now whit the nob leader you get:
*A model whit 285 hp
*Costs 75 req and 25 power leaving the squad whit 420 req and 45 power squad worth
*Has good combat capabilities in both meele and ranged
*Increases damage output for 15%
*Can also detect infiltrated units

At least whit the leaders part i completely agree that there is no actual comparison between them than just costs and buffs, however at least i must say that the DA exarch tiers up better than the nob leader (The 20% damage reduction passive and the ability embolden).

Kvn wrote:No. It doesn't. It makes them a micro-intensive utility knife. They certainly don't counter the units from all other races. You're exaggerating quite a bit here.

Of course, it makes them micro intensive WHEN YOU JUST BOUGHT ESPECIALIST UNITS THAT END UP COSTING MORE POWER.

The Great Kenny wrote: so basically 270 is worth for a unit that has low durability, BUT DEALS A LOT OF DPS.

Thats the point, i never said that they where OP initially at the moment, the problem is the BE or DA aspect upgrade, not the current initial base stats of the dire avengers, i am totally fine whit their initial stats in this version.

The Great Kenny wrote: That's the point. They, like most Eldar units, are a glass cannon.

Yes they are glass cannon, when not mass retreating and fleet of footing basically from every potential danger (Wich makes sense but still makes the BE or DA aspect more questionable on it's cost effectiveness being cheap for what it gives you back)

Torpid wrote:

The Great Kenny wrote:Question boss, if all dire avengers get the battle equipment and start focusing your commander then your weakest units? Wich specialist units you would invest on?

Melee spam or jump units. Or even dedicated ranged spam works really.

This is exactly what i dont want this game to become, as i said before, i dont want this to be Starcraft 2.5 where spams have to be countered whit spams, and when you want to be more creative or have more variation of units, you get punished? I beg you, no please. Another reason of why retail is so cancerous.

Deflaktor wrote:It is funny since I, as eldar player... am speaking on a 3v3 perspective when going against IG in a lane.

Too much theory my man. You completely removed Warlock out of equation (40 range immolator, 50 range desructor = automatic scramble in IG lines), although all you do as IG is play against WL+3DA build all day. Try and see how fun it is. Anyway, that gives you enough time to close up and drop a nade for additional damage or zoning.

Second, lone shuriken out of cover is indeed easy to outshoot. Problem is: there're not enough players with a major mental development issues among us to put a shuri like that, it just doesn't happen. So this argument doesn't stand as well.

Third and final, people who balance this game do that with 1v1 duel mode in mind. Team games do not matter and cannot be used as point of emphasis in this kind of conversation. You're on your own in your team games.

Soberson wrote:You completely removed Warlock out of equation (40 range immolator, 50 range desructor = automatic scramble in IG lines)

I removed him out of the equation since I'm using Farseer. Of course, Warlock makes a huge difference but he should not be auto-choice against IG.
Either way, that is kinda derailing the thread. I just wanted to provide the situation from a different perspective.

Adding 5 power to the cost is not needed. Eldar T1 is a power sink as it stands. Thanks to battle equipment being a must-buy now, even more so than before. Why it is a must-buy can be seen here: https://youtu.be/CgRO0Bs49vc?t=5m55s
Ol'Unreliable chops off around a third of the hp of dire avengers (in light cover). That was pre patch.

Torpid wrote:

The Great Kenny wrote:Question boss, if all dire avengers get the battle equipment and start focusing your commander then your weakest units? Wich specialist units you would invest on?

Melee spam or jump units. Or even dedicated ranged spam works really.

Ou, now only need to spam for a melee IG, and then spam jump IG. Ok-Ok.

Ooooohhhh psycho, remember that time when i got triple da + Falcon +WG and seer council for ogryns .... OK wse also decapping shit and locking every unit was too a thing. However triple da into Falcon is still cancer and ez mode. But if you play IG and enemy is eldar and he starts to cancer answer is hwt autocannon spam ... Nurland teached me ( ͡ʘ ͜ʖ ͡ʘ)

The Great Kenny wrote:Fleet is incredibly userfull vs set up teams in general, since your unit is focusing fire on 1 target, the other two will use fleet of foot, the affected unit retreats or goes into heavy cover, while you just had to pack up your Set up team or retreat it.

Except for the fact that fleet also reduces the damage of grenades, given that they count as a ranged attack. If you want to counter a setup team, you need to come in from three different angles, or just muscle through with heavy losses. Also, I'd like to see the replay of this Eldar player moving a suppressed DA squad into convenient heavy cover while being shot to bits by a setup team in the middle of a firefight.

The Great Kenny wrote:Who said that the shields forced you to stay static when you can simply leave the possition you just dominated, rape the other player, and bang, make more shields, replace the ones from your lane. Blah Blah Blah.

And then you take the shield for yourself, allowing you to make use of them with a faction that is significantly more geared towards entrenching in position. The Eldar units don't get to take it with them after all, and your constant complaining and accusations aren't helping your arguments.

The Great Kenny wrote:Yes, i agree, grenades are not a big deal to dodge whit non set up teams, however lets talk about 3 dire avengers focusing fire on the squad while a warlock uses destructor on them, distracts another one of the ranged units while the enemy player is more worried about focusing DA in fear that a squad gets wiped whit pure DPS.

So what is the rest of your army doing? Given that your talking about three squads plus a hero focusing your one unit, is there something missing in this equation? Saying "everything shoots at my guys" is a really bad way to structure an argument. If you want to get into theorycrafting, you need to take both sides and everything they bring to the table into consideration.

The Great Kenny wrote:I will just leave this here......

-DA natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 Req - 27 req reinforce cost - upkeep 5.1
*Unit hp: 500 hp (100 per model)
*Speed: 5.5
*Rotation: 1000
*Ranged DPS: 8.75 dps per model - 43.75 Total squad damage per second
*Meele DPS: 6.67

*Battle equipment or aspect of the dire avenger: 65 req 15 power
+20% hp increase (120 each morel now)

Fleet of foot (Yes it takes out basically any chance of them at dealing any damage at ranged, but, it makes easier for them to get close and nade Set up teams, at the moment you see an ASpotter shell, use this and nothing happens, see an assault marine squad, wait for them to make a small twitch, use it and again nothing happened while you gained a defensive possition, got in cover and give the middle finger)

Grenades (Good at being spooky and at killing units in retreat)

Shields (Incredibly good defensive gear that doesnt ACT like FUCKING CHAINS OF TORMENT so that doesnt limit any of eldar mobility unless the player is a full camper)

335 req 15 power squad:

Now whit the DA exarch you get:
*A model whit 250 HP
*costs 85 req and 15 power making the squad cost 420 req and 30 power - upkeep 7.65 req
*Vision just to make rangers unnecesary when countering infiltrators.
*Has good combat capabilities in meele

-Ork Shootas natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 req -27 req reinforce cost -upkeep 5.1 (At the moment everything goes equal for the DA and shoota squads)
*Unit hp: 600 hp (120 per model, ork shootas outclass DA in terms of durability here)
*Speed: 5 (DA slighly outclasses the ork shoota here)
*Rotation: 1000 (Finally a tie)
*Ranged DPS: 7 DPS - 35 total DPS from the squad (Cough cough, so you said ork shootas dealt more ranged damage.... Cough)
*Meele DPS: 8 DPS (Ork shootas do slightly win there, but who would be so foolish to send his shootas to meele a DA blob? Well unless the DA are foolishly ON the other side of cover against orks, unless of course they had already wiped out or forced a slugga squad to retreat)

*Big shoota upgrade: 75 req 20 power

FROM 7 DPS PER MODEL to 15.27 DPS, good at making short work of infantry.

Increases range from 38 to 41, further supports their DPS potential vs infantry.

And? ASpotters and Jump troops just made this investment unnecessary.
Also they rely on natural cover from the map, they cant constantly make cover like if they where DA or GM squads, wich it means, once it was destroyed, you need to totally depend on your big shootas range.

Squad total : 345 req 20 power

Now whit the nob leader you get:
*A model whit 285 hp
*Costs 75 req and 25 power leaving the squad whit 420 req and 45 power squad worth
*Has good combat capabilities in both meele and ranged
*Increases damage output for 15%
*Can also detect infiltrated units

At least whit the leaders part i completely agree that there is no actual comparison between them than just costs and buffs, however at least i must say that the DA exarch tiers up better than the nob leader (The 20% damage reduction passive and the ability embolden).

You seem to be supporting my argument with everything you've written here. With either one of their upgrades, Shootas are head and shoulders above DA in terms of dps. Even vanilla, they still outshoot the DA thanks to 20 extra health, unless of course, the point of this was an attempt to compare fully upgraded DA to basic Shootas, in which case, I don't know what to tell you.

Also, you realize the Exarch leader only has 15 range on his detection aura, right? the same as a Sentinel's. That's not exactly a hard counter to stealth as you're depicting it here.

The Great Kenny wrote:Of course, it makes them micro intensive WHEN YOU JUST BOUGHT ESPECIALIST UNITS THAT END UP COSTING MORE POWER.

I'm sorry, but I'm not even sure how to interpret this sentence.

The Great Kenny wrote:Thats the point, i never said that they where OP initially at the moment, the problem is the BE or DA aspect upgrade, not the current initial base stats of the dire avengers, i am totally fine whit their initial stats in this version.

I'm not surprised that you're fine with their nerfed stats. What I'm saying is that you seem to think that the BE somehow got buffed from what it did in the last patch. Here's a fact for you, DA with BE perform exactly the same this patch as they did last patch, the only difference being their initial stats got nerfed and put into the upgrade which is now a must-buy instead of an optional purchase. If you thought that it was an easy pick option before on a power-hungry race like the Eldar, then that tells me you didn't play them very much.

The Great Kenny wrote:Yes they are glass cannon, when not mass retreating and fleet of footing basically from every potential danger (Wich makes sense but still makes the BE or DA aspect more questionable on it's cost effectiveness being cheap for what it gives you back)

How about this. If we were to take away the guns from Guardsmen and attach them to the Sergeant upgrade, would that make it OP? I mean, you get a massive increase in dps, and you don't have to pay any power for it. The answer is no. It would not be OP. In fact, it would be pretty UP due to being such a massive nerf in the first place. While this is an extreme example, what I'm trying to say is that you're taking this way out of context and accusing the upgrade of being incredible without considering the factors behind it. I strongly suggest that you play Eldar more for yourself, and see how this affects their playstyle as well as how it helps or hinders your eco. The constant exaggerations, caps, and cursing is making it hard to take your arguments seriously.

The Licking Boogyman wrote:Ooooohhhh psycho, remember that time when i got triple da + Falcon +WG and seer council for ogryns .... OK wse also decapping shit and locking every unit was too a thing. However triple da into Falcon is still cancer and ez mode. But if you play IG and enemy is eldar and he starts to cancer answer is hwt autocannon spam ... Nurland teached me ( ͡ʘ ͜ʖ ͡ʘ)

I recall nearly wiping your entire army multiple times over and even killing units before they even did anything like those firedragons, and you still bought your entire army back while fast-teching to seers too.

How you liking your 0 upkeep triple DA build yet?

In the End you also got wiped (ಠ_ಠ) but really cheese build, though be happy that Falcon got slower cause thats the reason that you could finish off my Falcon so is gud, actually cant remember having fds in that game also \_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah by your fucking warp shitter exarch phasing my entire army and then nuking it while I couldn't do anything because why the fuck not, after attritioning me to death since somehow you could replace your army twice over despite me camping your power for like five hours. Felt like I was the Eldar and you were the IG in concept with how every unit I had was precious and little losses fucked me over massively.

I tip my hat to all of you. I thought the Eldar hate was strong within me, but you've shown me that I'm simply a scrub hater.

More productively, To get back up to snuff with what 3 DAs could do as ranged fighters, you now have to spend an additional 45 power. I think that's a reasonable nerf from what they were before. We'll see I guess, but I haven't seen any reps saying otherwise so far.

The Great Kenny wrote:Fleet is incredibly userfull vs set up teams in general, since your unit is focusing fire on 1 target, the other two will use fleet of foot, the affected unit retreats or goes into heavy cover, while you just had to pack up your Set up team or retreat it.

Kvn wrote:Except for the fact that fleet also reduces the damage of grenades, given that they count as a ranged attack. If you want to counter a setup team, you need to come in from three different angles, or just muscle through with heavy losses. Also, I'd like to see the replay of this Eldar player moving a suppressed DA squad into convenient heavy cover while being shot to bits by a setup team in the middle of a firefight.

"If you want to counter a setup team, you need to come in from three different angles" Thats the point i wanted to get, however, most of the times, the unit gets focused, sadly this part i cant blame the player nor the unit, since the DoW II system, i dont know if it is intended or just bad programming, HW squad usually loves to waste an entire volley on the first unit they see (The bait avengers in this case), those avengers insta retreat while the others had activated fleet of food, most of times i end up hitting the X button or i just have to de- set up unit, however there comes a part where i have to give you the point, when i am playing against a farseer (Whit any race, not just imperial guard), it's incredibly easy to over bleed it's DA unless i fail to realize about the other squads coming whit FoF just in time and ultimately my HW gets nadedd whit a first one and then gets wiped out whit the second one, when it comes to warp spiders exarchs, and warlocks, basically is just a pain in the ass to use HWT, and in that part DA doesnt even need to invest so much in battle equipment since the Warp spider exarch is a natural anti HWT, while the warlock.... Huh that sword whit inmolate is just too bloody strong vs HWT whit infantry armour, at least whit space marine devs and chaos havocs i give the middle finger to this ability. I do give you the point to you in there when you go into the micro intensive, but lets consider that not everyone we have finantial freedom or the time to milk hours from multiplayer. Usually this kind of plays happens from ppl that has most matches, or just milks eldar all the time. So i cant complain so much about FoF or the battle equipment in here, however i do think that it is still a good way to deal whit Set up teams since eldar players doesnt seem to like the new rangers. And thanks for the idea, i really need to save a replay, since i understand that i am not making myself understandable whit words.

The Great Kenny wrote:Who said that the shields forced you to stay static when you can simply leave the possition you just dominated, rape the other player, and bang, make more shields, replace the ones from your lane. Blah Blah Blah.

Kvn wrote:And then you take the shield for yourself, allowing you to make use of them with a faction that is significantly more geared towards entrenching in position. The Eldar units don't get to take it with them after all, and your constant complaining and accusations aren't helping your arguments.

Well if you put shields right in a place where you know that the enemy will stay or camp then, yes, they can totally use the shields. However i am talking about eldar whit decent and good experience that usually uses the shields on your power farms where you will basically end up not using since you secure it, and then you focus, on the vps that will surely, for logical reasons, are going to be deployed close to the eldar spawn, not from where the enemy player troops come from.

The Great Kenny wrote:Yes, i agree, grenades are not a big deal to dodge whit non set up teams, however lets talk about 3 dire avengers focusing fire on the squad while a warlock uses destructor on them, distracts another one of the ranged units while the enemy player is more worried about focusing DA in fear that a squad gets wiped whit pure DPS.

Kvn wrote:So what is the rest of your army doing? Given that your talking about three squads plus a hero focusing your one unit, is there something missing in this equation? Saying "everything shoots at my guys" is a really bad way to structure an argument. If you want to get into theorycrafting, you need to take both sides and everything they bring to the table into consideration.

Depends on the army to be honest,if it's whit space marines or chaos space marines then i usually just end up retreating the scouts, and the heretics just stay back to worship support, but whit blob armies is just a pain to get focused by piercing DPS after you dodged the grenades, also i missed something in the equation, usually the eldar units have FoF activated moments before they start the engagement, meaning that the eldar players has the numbers calculated and it's just prepared to focus after throwing the grenades.

The Great Kenny wrote:I will just leave this here......

-DA natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 Req - 27 req reinforce cost - upkeep 5.1
*Unit hp: 500 hp (100 per model)
*Speed: 5.5
*Rotation: 1000
*Ranged DPS: 8.75 dps per model - 43.75 Total squad damage per second
*Meele DPS: 6.67

*Battle equipment or aspect of the dire avenger: 65 req 15 power
+20% hp increase (120 each morel now)

Fleet of foot (Yes it takes out basically any chance of them at dealing any damage at ranged, but, it makes easier for them to get close and nade Set up teams, at the moment you see an ASpotter shell, use this and nothing happens, see an assault marine squad, wait for them to make a small twitch, use it and again nothing happened while you gained a defensive possition, got in cover and give the middle finger)

Grenades (Good at being spooky and at killing units in retreat)

Shields (Incredibly good defensive gear that doesnt ACT like FUCKING CHAINS OF TORMENT so that doesnt limit any of eldar mobility unless the player is a full camper)

335 req 15 power squad:

Now whit the DA exarch you get:
*A model whit 250 HP
*costs 85 req and 15 power making the squad cost 420 req and 30 power - upkeep 7.65 req
*Vision just to make rangers unnecesary when countering infiltrators.
*Has good combat capabilities in meele

-Ork Shootas natural stats:
*Unit cost: 270 req -27 req reinforce cost -upkeep 5.1 (At the moment everything goes equal for the DA and shoota squads)
*Unit hp: 600 hp (120 per model, ork shootas outclass DA in terms of durability here)
*Speed: 5 (DA slighly outclasses the ork shoota here)
*Rotation: 1000 (Finally a tie)
*Ranged DPS: 7 DPS - 35 total DPS from the squad (Cough cough, so you said ork shootas dealt more ranged damage.... Cough)
*Meele DPS: 8 DPS (Ork shootas do slightly win there, but who would be so foolish to send his shootas to meele a DA blob? Well unless the DA are foolishly ON the other side of cover against orks, unless of course they had already wiped out or forced a slugga squad to retreat)

*Big shoota upgrade: 75 req 20 power

FROM 7 DPS PER MODEL to 15.27 DPS, good at making short work of infantry.

Increases range from 38 to 41, further supports their DPS potential vs infantry.

And? ASpotters and Jump troops just made this investment unnecessary.
Also they rely on natural cover from the map, they cant constantly make cover like if they where DA or GM squads, wich it means, once it was destroyed, you need to totally depend on your big shootas range.

Squad total : 345 req 20 power

Now whit the nob leader you get:
*A model whit 285 hp
*Costs 75 req and 25 power leaving the squad whit 420 req and 45 power squad worth
*Has good combat capabilities in both meele and ranged
*Increases damage output for 15%
*Can also detect infiltrated units

At least whit the leaders part i completely agree that there is no actual comparison between them than just costs and buffs, however at least i must say that the DA exarch tiers up better than the nob leader (The 20% damage reduction passive and the ability embolden).

Kvn wrote:You seem to be supporting my argument with everything you've written here. With either one of their upgrades, Shootas are head and shoulders above DA in terms of dps. Even vanilla, they still outshoot the DA thanks to 20 extra health, unless of course, the point of this was an attempt to compare fully upgraded DA to basic Shootas, in which case, I don't know what to tell you.

Also, you realize the Exarch leader only has 15 range on his detection aura, right? the same as a Sentinel's. That's not exactly a hard counter to stealth as you're depicting it here.

I agree, but this comparison was made up to see that ork shootas consume more power in upgrades, take much bleeding when they need to back off when they run and also, are easy to just disperse while using artillery and jump troops, in the other hand FoF just saves you from that problem if you are paying attention.

The Great Kenny wrote:Of course, it makes them micro intensive WHEN YOU JUST BOUGHT ESPECIALIST UNITS THAT END UP COSTING MORE POWER.

Kvn wrote: I'm sorry, but I'm not even sure how to interpret this sentence.

I apologize, what i wanted to mean is, why do i have to usually use 60 power to try and counter this units? And yes this time was about IG vs eldar.

The Great Kenny wrote:Thats the point, i never said that they where OP initially at the moment, the problem is the BE or DA aspect upgrade, not the current initial base stats of the dire avengers, i am totally fine whit their initial stats in this version.

Kvn wrote:I'm not surprised that you're fine with their nerfed stats. What I'm saying is that you seem to think that the BE somehow got buffed from what it did in the last patch. Here's a fact for you, DA with BE perform exactly the same this patch as they did last patch, the only difference being their initial stats got nerfed and put into the upgrade which is now a must-buy instead of an optional purchase. If you thought that it was an easy pick option before on a power-hungry race like the Eldar, then that tells me you didn't play them very much.

Well, i use all races, my least played race is tyranid, but i did play whit eldar a lot back in 2.5 but i at least TRY to make diferent builds, i had sometimes just gone for 1 DA and 1 banshee squads (Obviously later supported by 1 shur and 1 ranger) and it sometimes work and sometimes doesnt, the point that i want to get, is that it is starting to get over repetitive, i really dont want this game to become starcraft 2.5 where people is going to end up countering blob spams whit blob spams, i am also not necessarily making this thread to just increase 5 power to the BA, especially since i have a lot of respect to all the work, effort, time and love that the elite team has put into making this work, i post this in this thread becouse i want people to realize that milking this build is getting old, repetitive,and has a lot of adventages on tier 1 in both huge maps (Webway gates, yet it costs red so i wont complain about that) and small maps where double shuriken canons and triple dire avengers work like a miracle to a point that it is no longer fun nor challenging, it is getting frustrating, and boring to play against, yes, i know you are going to tell me that if i had played so much against this build then why havent i planed a way to counter this?, well i have, and it was a pretty cancerous build, double artillery spotters, it costed me a lot of micro since the eldar player i was playing against was using a lot of dispersing tactics whit FoF against my first single Artillery spotter, i got the second one, and i just started shelling either the back and front or the sides, depending on wich second direction the eldar was taking, this did work really good, but at the moment i was starting to tier up, the eldar player had already a falcon, had to obviously mass retreat to not unecesarily bleed, and in the end i got double gen bashed after i got to tier 2, i honestly conceded, even tough i agree that i just conceded to soon instead of getting SM, however, that is a fight that i got from 2.5 so it's not to relevant in here except for the fact that FoF DOES save you from a lot of situations and sometimes forces you to get counters against speed, sadly i have so many bad experiences whit set up teams, to a point where i started to mainly use Artillery spotters and sometimes catachans when i am not facing a farseer. And that was yet another IG vs Eldar in there

The Great Kenny wrote:Yes they are glass cannon, when not mass retreating and fleet of footing basically from every potential danger (Wich makes sense but still makes the BE or DA aspect more questionable on it's cost effectiveness being cheap for what it gives you back)

Kvn wrote:How about this. If we were to take away the guns from Guardsmen and attach them to the Sergeant upgrade, would that make it OP? I mean, you get a massive increase in dps, and you don't have to pay any power for it. The answer is no. It would not be OP. In fact, it would be pretty UP due to being such a massive nerf in the first place. While this is an extreme example, what I'm trying to say is that you're taking this way out of context and accusing the upgrade of being incredible without considering the factors behind it. I strongly suggest that you play Eldar more for yourself, and see how this affects their playstyle as well as how it helps or hinders your eco. The constant exaggerations, caps, and cursing is making it hard to take your arguments seriously.

First, GM dont have the natural speed that the DA have so if they want to back off from a loosing fire fight, that happens becouse you have cover close, or else you have to retreat when you are on the open, however that totally makes up whit the sargeant and the cheap reinforcement upgrade.
Second, initially the GM has initially decent DPS (24.72 for the whole squad) and also they are the worst unit in meele combat, 3rd unlike the DA, making 3 units of this guys ALWAYS ends up bad when facing meele spam blobs, or jump and artillery troops since they dont have FoF and grenades wich are in my opinion, great meele deterrents. GM pretty much rely on getting supported by their commanders, and most likely, by a sentinel ( Another unit that heavily depends on GM if it wants to stay alive at least until tier 2), things that i do agree about GM is that once they get the sargeant upgrade their bleeding becomes very minimal, they now get good at ranged DPS (35.96 dps dealt by the whole squad), but there is one thing, at least triple GM spams gets heavily punished by disruption and meele combined, to a point that it is more uncommon to see Triple GM builds than triple DA builds, also Triple DA are mostly played by Warp Spider Exarchs and warlocks, while the triple GM usually is played by Commissars and Lord generals.

By the way, thanks Kvn for sharing your point of view, i know i made this look like a rant, but i am digging upon stats, numbers and everything i can for my lack of replays, so in one i am giving facts whit numbers, but you seem to ignore that the DA do have mobility and damage adventage over most of the ranged units in the game, going back into the ork shoota and dire avenger comparison, also thanks for pointing out that i was not giving good arguments, this is my second post about balance, and that is mostly becouse as i am struggling to point out, i dont want this game to be starcraft 2.5, i want this game to have more unit intensity and variation than just seeing every game, 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3 have builds like triple hormogaunts (I still dont get why some people keeps using this build, it's actually pretty easy to counter), triple sluggas whit the warboss (Even tough that one is fun to fight against until... Tier 2...) and the most classic and used one since guardians in retail.... Triple guardians now evolved to dire avengers, in elite mod i have seen less builds that uses 3 units of the same type but it is getting hilarious how much this build is used, and how in almost every game this unit does well against me, and against other players, and trust me, there was a guy complaining about banshees being bad against IG, actually, banshees where my ace vs IG, i just wait for the guy to send his commissar, shoot him down or force him back whit DA, and then send banshees and whatever hero im playing whit, whit meele and fleet of foot against the guardsmen, i just click away from the sentinel stomp (I do agree that the sentinel does bug out meele units making 1 or 2 models stare at it waiting for the stomp, wich of course sometimes change the course of the battle), but far from that banshees do tank well GM whit any of the aspect upgrades, and they got a pretty nice especial move that it is known to make banshees a great squad wipe unit, so, why are there so many DA builds, why not just play more whit banshees than just constantly use triple dire avengers, seriously 7 out of 10 eldar players keep using this build, not saying that all of them make them look userfull, most of the times this build fails is becouse the DA rush in against units whitout the battle equipment upgrade, but in the end whit it, they are a good mobility unit, defensive unit and also a good ranged DPS unit, even if you win the engagement there will always be a falcon when the eldar doesnt invest power in especialist units, or you just get double or triple shuriken'd wich ends up in numerous gen bashes, also i want to point out that i hate the over use of 1 single unit, even if it's just some cheap GM or Hormogaunts, but i still feel that the triple DA do a lot and now that the battle equipment is a must - buy, the tomb of the rangers was digged even deeper in my point of view.

Thanks again for your reply Kvn.

I would like to take a moment to apologize if I sounded harsh in my previous comments. Life's been pretty busy lately. Not an excuse, I know, but just wanted to say that. Anyway:

The Great Kenny wrote:[
"If you want to counter a setup team, you need to come in from three different angles" Thats the point i wanted to get, however, most of the times, the unit gets focused, sadly this part i cant blame the player nor the unit, since the DoW II system, i dont know if it is intended or just bad programming, HW squad usually loves to waste an entire volley on the first unit they see (The bait avengers in this case), those avengers insta retreat while the others had activated fleet of food, most of times i end up hitting the X button or i just have to de- set up unit, however there comes a part where i have to give you the point, when i am playing against a farseer (Whit any race, not just imperial guard), it's incredibly easy to over bleed it's DA unless i fail to realize about the other squads coming whit FoF just in time and ultimately my HW gets nadedd whit a first one and then gets wiped out whit the second one, when it comes to warp spiders exarchs, and warlocks, basically is just a pain in the ass to use HWT, and in that part DA doesnt even need to invest so much in battle equipment since the Warp spider exarch is a natural anti HWT, while the warlock.... Huh that sword whit inmolate is just too bloody strong vs HWT whit infantry armour, at least whit space marine devs and chaos havocs i give the middle finger to this ability. I do give you the point to you in there when you go into the micro intensive, but lets consider that not everyone we have finantial freedom or the time to milk hours from multiplayer. Usually this kind of plays happens from ppl that has most matches, or just milks eldar all the time. So i cant complain so much about FoF or the battle equipment in here, however i do think that it is still a good way to deal whit Set up teams since eldar players doesnt seem to like the new rangers. And thanks for the idea, i really need to save a replay, since i understand that i am not making myself understandable whit words.

Yeah, that situation is something that comes with getting used to playing against Eldar. They don't have a traditional anti-setup unit (especially now that Rangers do almost no damage) so they instead have a kind of mix between DA grenades, Gates for mobility, and hero abilities to strike the final nail in the coffin. The trick comes from supporting your Heavy Weapons Teams. In T1, they're not going to be great, as they are more of a soft counter zoning tool rather than the direct blob counter that they area against most races. The anti-DA damage is more on your Sentinel who can provide constant bleed with Guardsmen repair to keep him in the fight for a very long time. When the enemy switches focus, it comes down to a micro-dance between players, and the one who pulls it off best is the one who bleeds the enemy the hardest. It can be quite difficult if you're not used to it, but it's one of those things that everybody has to go through while improving. If you think the enemy is moving in with a grenade, my advice would be to keep your army nearby to support, HWT to focus one squad, Guardsmen to shoot down another, and Sent and/or hero to focus and stomp/melee the final one. If he commits, you have the opportunity to bleed him quite a bit, and if he doesn't, you're in the position to take the fight to him instead. Just be cautious while moving up, as he'll probably be waiting to catch you out of position.

The Great Kenny wrote:Well if you put shields right in a place where you know that the enemy will stay or camp then, yes, they can totally use the shields. However i am talking about eldar whit decent and good experience that usually uses the shields on your power farms where you will basically end up not using since you secure it, and then you focus, on the vps that will surely, for logical reasons, are going to be deployed close to the eldar spawn, not from where the enemy player troops come from.

True, however, the shields are only useful to the Eldar player once he's reached that critical point, and only when they have time to go up. Since they can't be put up in the middle of a firefight (stray shots destroy them since they have 0 hp in that first second) they need to have some room to breathe. Countering this comes down to general awareness and game decisions. If he does get up in your power and you can't move him, it might be best to go for his instead. Either he'll have to pull back to push you away, or you'll trade gen farms which will usually be to your advantage since IG have some potent power-free units in ST whereas all Eldar units past early T1 are heavy on the power cost.

The Great Kenny wrote:Depends on the army to be honest,if it's whit space marines or chaos space marines then i usually just end up retreating the scouts, and the heretics just stay back to worship support, but whit blob armies is just a pain to get focused by piercing DPS after you dodged the grenades, also i missed something in the equation, usually the eldar units have FoF activated moments before they start the engagement, meaning that the eldar players has the numbers calculated and it's just prepared to focus after throwing the grenades.

If they activated FoF just before the engagement starts, both their guns and grenades will be doing significantly less damage, allowing you to outshoot them fairly comfortably. It comes down to the Eldar player choosing between dps or maneuverability, and your ability to react to that decision.

The Great Kenny wrote:I agree, but this comparison was made up to see that ork shootas consume more power in upgrades, take much bleeding when they need to back off when they run and also, are easy to just disperse while using artillery and jump troops, in the other hand FoF just saves you from that problem if you are paying attention.

Orks also have a stronger economy to support their expenditures, allowing for heavier investment either into their troops or into their numbers overall. This is especially true in T2 where they get quite a lot of power-cheap (comparatively) units. Comparing them directly isn't always the best thing to do since they do similar, but still distinct things for two very different armies.

The Great Kenny wrote:I apologize, what i wanted to mean is, why do i have to usually use 60 power to try and counter this units? And yes this time was about IG vs eldar.

Ah, well, like I said above, your best counter to the DA is going to be a mixture of your GM and your Sentinel, neither costing power. Dire Avengers will run circles around Spotters so long as the Eldar player is aware, and HWT will only slow them down.

The Great Kenny wrote:Well, i use all races, my least played race is tyranid, but i did play whit eldar a lot back in 2.5 but i at least TRY to make diferent builds, i had sometimes just gone for 1 DA and 1 banshee squads (Obviously later supported by 1 shur and 1 ranger) and it sometimes work and sometimes doesnt, the point that i want to get, is that it is starting to get over repetitive, i really dont want this game to become starcraft 2.5 where people is going to end up countering blob spams whit blob spams, i am also not necessarily making this thread to just increase 5 power to the BA, especially since i have a lot of respect to all the work, effort, time and love that the elite team has put into making this work, i post this in this thread becouse i want people to realize that milking this build is getting old, repetitive,and has a lot of adventages on tier 1 in both huge maps (Webway gates, yet it costs red so i wont complain about that) and small maps where double shuriken canons and triple dire avengers work like a miracle to a point that it is no longer fun nor challenging, it is getting frustrating, and boring to play against, yes, i know you are going to tell me that if i had played so much against this build then why havent i planed a way to counter this?, well i have, and it was a pretty cancerous build, double artillery spotters, it costed me a lot of micro since the eldar player i was playing against was using a lot of dispersing tactics whit FoF against my first single Artillery spotter, i got the second one, and i just started shelling either the back and front or the sides, depending on wich second direction the eldar was taking, this did work really good, but at the moment i was starting to tier up, the eldar player had already a falcon, had to obviously mass retreat to not unecesarily bleed, and in the end i got double gen bashed after i got to tier 2, i honestly conceded, even tough i agree that i just conceded to soon instead of getting SM, however, that is a fight that i got from 2.5 so it's not to relevant in here except for the fact that FoF DOES save you from a lot of situations and sometimes forces you to get counters against speed, sadly i have so many bad experiences whit set up teams, to a point where i started to mainly use Artillery spotters and sometimes catachans when i am not facing a farseer. And that was yet another IG vs Eldar in there

I can see where your concerns and frustrations might come from, but currently there isn't much incentive for Eldar to do otherwise. Especially against IG, where making a wrong decision in T1 can just end the game then and there since that's when IG can get the greatest advantage over them. Banshees are suicide vs Inquisitor with her 1-click squad lockdown abilities, as well as her aoe debuffs and plethora of ways to bleed them, and they do poorly against Lord General who can add huge focus fire and shoot them down quite handily. They are all right against the Commissar, but a good IG player will nail them with Sentinel stomps when they can't dodge and then bleed the Eldar eco dry with their 35 rec costs (which means that losing 2 Banshees is just shy of the price losing a Tactical Marine model). Rangers are just bad against IG in general since they can't bleed anything, and now their dps is so low that they can't threaten the Sentinel either. That leaves DAs and Shuris as the go-to choices for Eldar, and while it can get very repetitive, their effectiveness has been toned down with the 2.6 patch.

I wouldn't worry about it turning into a Starcraft clone though. Even with the triple DA meta, Dawn of War 2 has remained a micro-focused and unique game. Dawn of War 3 on the other hand... well... things look grim.

The Great Kenny wrote:By the way, thanks Kvn for sharing your point of view, i know i made this look like a rant, but i am digging upon stats, numbers and everything i can for my lack of replays, so in one i am giving facts whit numbers, but you seem to ignore that the DA do have mobility and damage adventage over most of the ranged units in the game, going back into the ork shoota and dire avenger comparison, also thanks for pointing out that i was not giving good arguments, this is my second post about balance, and that is mostly becouse as i am struggling to point out, i dont want this game to be starcraft 2.5, i want this game to have more unit intensity and variation than just seeing every game, 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3 have builds like triple hormogaunts (I still dont get why some people keeps using this build, it's actually pretty easy to counter), triple sluggas whit the warboss (Even tough that one is fun to fight against until... Tier 2...) and the most classic and used one since guardians in retail.... Triple guardians now evolved to dire avengers, in elite mod i have seen less builds that uses 3 units of the same type but it is getting hilarious how much this build is used, and how in almost every game this unit does well against me, and against other players, and trust me, there was a guy complaining about banshees being bad against IG, actually, banshees where my ace vs IG, i just wait for the guy to send his commissar, shoot him down or force him back whit DA, and then send banshees and whatever hero im playing whit, whit meele and fleet of foot against the guardsmen, i just click away from the sentinel stomp (I do agree that the sentinel does bug out meele units making 1 or 2 models stare at it waiting for the stomp, wich of course sometimes change the course of the battle), but far from that banshees do tank well GM whit any of the aspect upgrades, and they got a pretty nice especial move that it is known to make banshees a great squad wipe unit, so, why are there so many DA builds, why not just play more whit banshees than just constantly use triple dire avengers, seriously 7 out of 10 eldar players keep using this build, not saying that all of them make them look userfull, most of the times this build fails is becouse the DA rush in against units whitout the battle equipment upgrade, but in the end whit it, they are a good mobility unit, defensive unit and also a good ranged DPS unit, even if you win the engagement there will always be a falcon when the eldar doesnt invest power in especialist units, or you just get double or triple shuriken'd wich ends up in numerous gen bashes, also i want to point out that i hate the over use of 1 single unit, even if it's just some cheap GM or Hormogaunts, but i still feel that the triple DA do a lot and now that the battle equipment is a must - buy, the tomb of the rangers was digged even deeper in my point of view.
Thanks again for your reply Kvn.

Sure thing. Sorry again for the earlier quips. From what I can tell, these seem to be problems that come from learning the matchup along the way and how best to counteract them. I can sympathize as my second favorite hero would the the Commissar (though Farseer will forever remain my number one) but those growing pains are part of playing the game. They'll get better sooner or later, and as you improve, you'll find the best way to punish those builds with your own style, whether it is by traditional means or otherwise. (Commi Cata Ogryn melee blob of doom for life)

Rangers have been dead for a while. It's just easier to smell them now. ;P

As long as Warlocks Immolate has 40 range 3DA build will remain pretty much safe against IG