Mines detection system

[Sub_Zero]

It always seems silly for me when I see enemy units walking over detected mines. It should not be like this. If you see them it does not mean you can walk over them. And there is a chance to be backfired from your own mines. I would like to see a fix where this problem will be solved. In my opinion it will not ruin balance.

[saltychipmunk]

I have to admit the accessibility of detectors kind of completely neutralizes most if not all land mines.


especially the gk land mines which is a shoddy excuse of a counter to melee blobs.

id like to see them still detonate, that way you can use them at the very least as a delaying mechanism, buying you time while they use their ranged units to shoot the mines.

[Sub_Zero]

id like to see them still detonate, that way you can use them at the very least as a delaying mechanism, buying you time while they use their ranged units to shoot the mines.

That is exactly what I wanted to say.

Mines of inquisitorial stormtroopers seem even underpowered since they do no damage whatsoever.

[Codex]

By that logic friendly mines should also detonate when you walk over them or indeed when an ally walks over them. They're just mines: just because you see them or know where they are doesn't mean you can walk over them.

Imo the system is fine as is. You put pressure on your opponent to get detectors and also put be proactive with the detector. You can conversely try to force off his detectors all the time to limit his movement due to the fact he is walking through a minefield and retreated his detection.

[saltychipmunk]

fine as is? one detector and the effective counter melee investment of the storm trooper is completely nullified.


its 15 power same as the shot guns, but becomes completely worthless once one detector is on the field, 100% countered.

And you wont force off the detectors , because the detection range is the majority of the standard engagement range so you can easily keep them in your melee and range blobs and just walk right over the mines.

and "shocker" it just so happens the races you would use these land mines against either have melee detectors (heretics warriors) , or have shootaboys.

so um yeah no change in strategy no extra risk , they can just face roll and not give two shits and a cookie for those now worthless land mines.

they are not fine , and anyone thinks they are , are kidding themselves.

[Sub_Zero]

Far future, you know... I bet mines have some kind of a recognition system "foe/ally"

As I mentioned before mines can turn against you if you position your units near them and they (mines) are being destroyed. I would be glad to have a possibility to damage my own mines while they are being detected to counteract a melee squad that walk over them if my previous offer does not seem good.

[Dark Riku]

they are not fine , and anyone thinks they are , are kidding themselves.

So many jokesters around then.

I agree with Codex. They can see them so they just step next to it?
Also "Because this would make logic irl" isn't a good argument in a game like this.

And there are already existing smart minefields that won't fire upon friendlies.
They of course don't look like the round stereotype mines we see ingame.

[Codex]

Salty, now you're putting words in my mouth. I never once commented on how good/ ineffective GK stormtrooper mines are. Why? Because I've never used them. I'm talking about the mine detection system, which is the title of this thread.

And there are already existing smart minefields that won't fire upon friendlies.

Source? I want to see this.

[Dark Riku]

Source? I want to see this.

Sadly only in my memory Can't seem to find it since I can't look up the right criteria. Saw it on the Science channel or something similar like that. WIll let you know if I stumble upon it again. Searched for like 10 mins, don't have the patience for these kind of things if I don't see progress soon :p

[saltychipmunk]

Salty, now you're putting words in my mouth. I never once commented on how good/ ineffective GK stormtrooper mines are. Why? Because I've never used them. I'm talking about the mine detection system, which is the title of this thread.

And there are already existing smart minefields that won't fire upon friendlies.

Source? I want to see this.

however detection is the primary reason why mines suck ass, while the other types of mines can have limited use , the fact of the matter is they become essentially worthless once detectors are on the field and your opponent is aware of them .

They become dead weight and wasted money.

I used GK mines because they were the worst of the lot by an excessive margin but all the mines suffer substantially from this,

from gk land mines to the ig landmine global, one detector and it all becomes worthless. admittedly at least with that global there are so damn many of them that you are bound to miss a few .

yet you brushed it all off as fine. one detector effectively countering a whole game mechanic that often costs the same or more than the detector.

you make it sound like getting a detector is some huge strategic loss for your opponent. But what does that really accomplish. wow you got him to spend 75 - 85 and 15 - 25 to counter your 65 - 100 15-25 land mines. But where as you got nothing he atleast has a solid unit in addition to that detector with other benifits like increased survivability , alternative attributes , passive bonus.

hell half the detectors are part of the majoirty of bos, like heretic leaders , shoota nobs and warriors.

And the races that dont always have detectors (eldar , ig ... sm maybe?) are races that wont threaten you in a way that merits land mines .

lets not forget the opponent can use aoe weapons liek grenades and flamers to detonate concealed stuff , so once they know they are there , well it is game over for the mines anyway.

[Ace of Swords]

This isn't CoH, and it's not a game fit for mines as they would be used irl, while you go around with your hero just place one here and there, and then move on, just causing annoyance to your opponent and quite some damage if he steps on them, but it's not a game where you can create minefields that your opponent has to completely waste time to destroy to get trough, that would make the tm but especially the mek and IG global mines OP.

[Ar-Aamon]

Good point Ace. Mines are fine imho.

[Codex]

The point is that detectors are not the entirety of the story. Consider the way webway gates work. Just having a detector doesn't mean that invisible webways are useless. In fact, it means your detector has to be working overtime to control these webways instead of fighting and taking care of map control. That in itself is a strategic advantage.

I contest your statement that mines are most useful against races where detectors are plentiful: I for example have lost an entire full hp vanilla shee to a single TM mine because they were blobbed unfortunately, and commissar mines are excellent against shees because Rangers are not a common purchase against IG (unless you're me).

Most races will build one detector in the early to mid game. If they have 2 then I would advise against getting mines in general. But if they only have 1, you can be dragging that detector all over the map. And they're typically reasonably squishy, allowing you to force them off, bully them or simply have them do jobs that reduce their overall efficiency and combat readiness.

Even if the opponent manages it well, his detector still can't be everywhere. Consider the case where I've got a scout sergeant, well woopdeedo I'm playing 1v1 and I need cappers everywhere. My force becomes split up and I run into a landmine, and my mindset instantly changes. This adds a mind game element, but also the fact that to avoid landmines I would have to blob up more around a detector, reducing my efficiency and generally causing more of a turtling playstyle with bursts of blobbed up aggression. This benefits you, regardless of whether I have a detector. It will benefit you LESS when I have one, but it still does benefit you.

This, combined with the fact that mines are fire-and-forget, forces your opponent to put more effort in getting rid of them than for you to place them. With all this is consideration, it isn't really a massive cost for mines, since most of them are energy based after the initial purchase of the wargear. The primary exception is Commissar Global, but I've seen Stoned Elfboy use that global enough to know it is really good if situational.

And the races that dont always have detectors (eldar , ig ... sm maybe?) are races that wont threaten you in a way that merits land mines.

Prove this statement please.

lets not forget the opponent can use aoe weapons liek grenades and flamers to detonate concealed stuff , so once they know they are there , well it is game over for the mines anyway.

The only time I would use a grenade to detonate land mines is if my opponent is standing on them. And that's his own positional mistake anyway.

[saltychipmunk]

what I mean is that, those races tend to be ranged focus over aggressive melee focused with multiple melee units.

Meaning they tend to move in a way that is more cautious. safe, they wont have to go over open terrain just to engage, rather they can easily hold cover or good positions to contribute to fights.

This makes it both harder to goad them into things like mines but also it removes some of the pressure that having something like land mines would alleviate.

afterall why would you need land mines if the opponent is content not to rush your position? sure you can get the 1 banshee or jump unit , but banshees are easy to focus and land mines wont do much good vs jump units unless you position your own army over them.

even as gk, a ranged blob does not frighten me , ill hold my cover and pelt them with nades, but a good melee blob will force any sm like ranged army to give ground , which is where something like suppression knockback or..... land mines would come into play.

Sure you can argue that the random mine on a point will successfully troll some peeps , and if the squad in question is damaged enough , might even cause kills , but if all you have is some random mines and no one to finish, then the squad in question could just finish what ever they were doing and go about their business.

[Forestradio]

um inq storm mines cost 15 power.

To detect them, your opponent must invest the same amount or usually even more power.

And there's a lot of things in DOW2 that don't make sense, like units being able to see through walls, etc

[Orkfaeller]

Guess, again, this is a situation where you have to consider 1v1s and team games.

Yeah, if I'm playing a one on one and I force lets say, my enemy to build a Scout Sergeant to counter my mines than one of his most important capping units is presured with another job, and splitting his forces to go cap the map is going to get risky.

But If I'm playing a team game, lets say Argus, the mines will do nothing, because the forces will just clash in allmost full force long the main battle line and the enemies Scouts will be there with the rest of his force; where else.

[Dark Riku]

How are mines bad vs ranged armies?
Place mines in cover on the other side from where you generally are.
Enemy want to move into cover, *boom* damage and cover can be gone.
Remember detectors aren't everywhere at once.

[saltychipmunk]

but you don't really build detectors to counter mines , counter mines tends to be circumstantial or a perk.

the mines themselves usually need a follow up to truly push a unit off whatever you were protecting .

mines by definition are one shot, once the shot is over the unit is fine unless they are harassed by some other force. Either you killed them or you didn't.

hence why they would be most dangerous in main engagements , yet arent because the detectors would logically be in that engagment.


besides arent there better things to get for the storms over land mines? like the sarge or the nades? I can see a techy or ravener getting their mines to throw off opponents.


if the mines didn't cost the same as full on weapon upgrades that would be one thing , but they do and as such compete with those weapons for our money.

and lets be realistic here, nades/ squad leader vs mines. We all know what the answer to that question is , for the majority of situations

and in regards to placing mines in cover , again that implies that the opponent is aggressive and isn't aware that you are using mines.

I wont say there aren't uses out there for mines because clearly people in this thread have demonstrated that there in fact are. But please you can't possibly compare the usability of mines to the usability of similar costing wargear.

[Codex]

Proceeding on the assumption that you're correct (hypothetically so I can make this point): how does changing the system of how mines work while detected make mines more cost efficient than they are right now? If your issue is that it's not cost-effective because of detectors, and it has to compete with more cost-efficient wargear, then clearly it's a cost-efficiency issue, not a game mechanics one.

IG Commissar Global would clearly be far more effective. But the single mines that are laid down? Either the detector isn't there and he walks into it anyway, or the detector is there and he now has to sidestep it. Well, that's hardly a big change at all, and I don't see how that alleviates the issue for single mines, while heavily buffing the commissar global.

[Dark Riku]

but you don't really build detectors to counter mines , counter mines tends to be circumstantial or a perk.

I sure do. These things can screw you over big time, especially catachans IE.

the mines themselves usually need a follow up to truly push a unit off whatever you were protecting .

I don't even know how many times I've seen mines kill the last low members of a squad or heroes on retreat.

But please you can't possibly compare the usability of mines to the usability of similar costing wargear.

Sure you can. Mines offer you a lot of things already mentioned by Codex.

[saltychipmunk]

fine you win.

though most of those really dont help the gk mines that do no damage .
and the catchans detpacks aren't mines since you can choose when to detonate them.

So perhaps something should be done for those. as you cant even use those mentioned tactics with those mines

[Nuclear Arbitor]

having mines work when detected means that they still counter melee rushes. that would actually be really valuable, even if the had a slight arming time rather than instant explosion.

also, whenever i see that mine drop i cast farsight and start shooting mines.

[Sub_Zero]

Yesterday I had a game when mek boy dropped some mines near my genfarm to delay my movement a bit and to allow his units to bash gens. But I had a detector so I just moved forward, stepped on all the mines and forced his army off. That is kinda sad for me. Those mines should have delayed my movement.

So my main point is that mines should delay the movement and force you to destroy them if you have a detector. And when you have no detectors mines punish you.

And about catachans' explosive and Kommando nob's bomb traps. These things work even if they detected. If it is fine why mines working like that would be broken? I just don't get it.

And about Comissar lord's mines. What is the cost? 200 or 175 red? Anyway that is a big investment. It always discourages when you see how your deployed mine field becomes useless.

having mines work when detected means that they still counter melee rushes. that would actually be really valuable, even if the had a slight arming time rather than instant explosion.

Consider that like a melee counter. And you have to "force it off" (destroy) like you do with fragile heretics or scouts with shotguns.

[sk4zi]

it its like that, mines schould be autotargeted by troops.

[Raffa]

it its like that, mines schould be autotargeted by troops.

Think about it. What would happen if mines were auto-targetable? Take 2 seconds and you will work it out.

Clue: IG mines dropped on an army, detectors reveal a mine when another unit is standing near it, not punishing carelessness, etc...

[sk4zi]

i mean if you cant walk over them even if they are deteced, you know.

think about IG or mek mines ... how many are they? 5? 10?

if you cant walk over them even if they are detected, its just anoying targeting every single mine by yourself.

and thanks for your nice words.
i also like you

[Raffa]

You want a way to get to become a decent player that doesn't involve putting the hundreds, or thousands, of hours in. One noobie will always fight the corner for an already low APM-game to have even lower APM. I don't think that is a battle you can win.

From another topic (pretty much sums up my views on this and anything that further simplifies the game):

as you sayed, it just helpes noobs...

why not help the noobs? then you have more even opponents ...
or are you afraid of them then?

but just my 2 cents.

Dumbing down the game to appeal a wider audience is precisely what you are describing, and that's a huge problem in nowdays games, that said, it' not the difficulty in the game that needs to be toned down, it's new players that need to step it up.

[Lulgrim]

I don't think mine behavior is a balance/gameplay problem and I fail to see it necessary to change or rework. More importantly, auto-targeting mines is just lol insane, it would make armies self-nuke when revealing a minefield...

[Arbit]

The current system works and is balanced, but I agree with Sub_Zero that the way mines are implemented is unsatisfying on a visceral level. Put simply, they don't work the way they should -

1. Despite their real life capacity to maim and kill, they do pitiful damage (except TM mines)
2. You can walk right over them when a detector is present
3. As soon as the detector leaves your stuff will start exploding, even if you don't move your troops (i.e. capping with tacs with scouts nearby, commie mine drop on your tacs, move your scouts away, tacs start exploding)
4. Despite being one of the most indiscriminate weapons ever made, you can walk over your own mines

Now I know the game shouldn't be balanced around what happens in real life, but the game is kinda-sorta modeled after how we expect tanks and guns and swords to work, so when landmines don't work like landmines it just looks bad.

I do admit that it's a matter of preference and that the current system is functional.

re: autotargeting mines
Come on, haven't you shift-right clicked 20 commie mines at some point and wished they were autotargeted? I do agree that they should be manually targeted for balance reasons. Really, blowing up your own army by detonating the mines isn't that big a threat since 1) mek and commie mines have an activation time so you can get out of the way and 2) there's a veeeery narrow range where you can stand close enough to get hit by the explosion when your army shoots the mine but not close enough to set it off in the first place.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

auto-targeting i have no opinions in either directions on. depending on the situation it could be either advantages or a problem. it would make mine clearing much faster but mines explode on death and the explosion is bigger than the trigger radius meaning that you could have a squad near an undetected mine, detect it, and have the squad killed by your own units.

i do think that mines should be useable in some capacity when detected though.