Dawn of War Codex

OK, so I had this game the other day and I don't what to hear about map control or anything. Basically all I'm interested in is a moment in the game were Paladins charge into my base trolling the entire army and leaving without a scratch. If anyone would be so kind to explain to me how is it even possible for any unit to trash your base in scenario 1 vs the entire army, I would be grateful.

Replay:
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=288721

1) You were a tier behind
2) you had a completely useless vehicle
3)all you had to do was equip plasma guns, first on your TM then on the 2 tacts and keep alive that dred with global repair/tm/scouts while tacts with plasmas were focusing the paladins.
4)Might aswell go for the signum armor.

I believe your answer is the perfect example of how ridiculous this actually is. In order to counter one unit you have to dedicate your entire army to fight it not only with adequate equipment, without which they are rendered useless, but using red as well.

It's not really about that, you should have got all the plasma guns earlier, they are amazing vs GK, the only reason to not get them is to get the rocket launcher vs their dred, but I would advise against that since it's useless later in the game.

And also only a few seconds of focused fire from all that plasma damage and they would be gone, what you are describing happens with every t3 unit, termies,nobs,guo, etc...

Nobs are unit which doesn't belong in your list for reasons such as being suppressible and knock-able unit, having to upgrade various wargear to fulfill their potential and having to spend red to use their ability. Of all the T3 units this is the one that is balanced.

Units such as GUO and Avatar have a major disadvantage, that is being snared and stunned with proper anti av. Plus they don't have the benefit of being simply teleported out of harm.

Finally Terminators, as in SM and Chaos ones, are a call-in unit that costs red plus have a cooldown upon calling. Unlikely as it may be, it is possible to build Paladins and GK Terminators one after another without having to wait. Now I don't know if that is still the case, but I recall seeing Paladins having a very cheap reinforce cost compared to Terminators. And there is still the one think that makes me laugh every time. The HP regeneration aura that heals them as fast as if they were standing in the base. I can't quite comprehend the logic behind this. Instead of having to wait for the unit to heal for a long period of time as it has so much health, it is given a HP regen aura so that you can pop them up in the battle in no time. Shouldn't the waiting be the price for having a unit so durable?

The only thing that is wrong with GK termies are their reinforcement cost, GK will never,ever be able to outech someone else, that's what balances their terminators, the fact that he had terminator on the field while you were like 100 power away from T3 was your fault and even then you would be able to counter them with the right purchases in T2, the downside of terminators is not only their high cost but also the fact they can't retreat, so you would have been easily able to chase them down and kill them if they pushed into your base if you had that plasma damage.

I re-watched our game. The problem wasn't the paladins. The same thing would have happened with sm assualt termies. The problem was I kept putting pressure on you, and you didn't deal with it well until you got that dred. You had too few squads for too long which let me keep that pressure up. The result was that you didn't tickle my gen farm until later, but that pretty much allowed me to out tech you. Another scout squad, or ASM or even a dev would have helped you with that. Additionally, You could've stopped the gen farm wipe at top, but capped other points. Lastly the whirlwind, while obnoxious, doesn't deal all that much damage, and like I said, until that dred, you had nothing to follow up on that disruption with.

I am aware of how the game developed and I never said I played perfectly. I would also like to add that if I am upset with anything it's the GKs, not the player who played them. So apologies if my posts here felt anyhow offensive to you, Flash.

Speaking of Devs I scratched the idea because of Interceptors, which are another wonderful unit of theirs (add irony here) to whom I had something to say in their own balance thread.

Again I stated the difference of Terminators and Paladins in the previous post and though they would act mostly the same way, should they be put in Paladins' place, I don't quite think they would be able to withstand so much pressure.

Ace of Swords wrote:The only thing that is wrong with GK termies are their reinforcement cost, GK will never,ever be able to outech someone else, that's what balances their terminators, the fact that he had terminator on the field while you were like 100 power away from T3 was your fault and even then you would be able to counter them with the right purchases in T2, the downside of terminators is not only their high cost but also the fact they can't retreat, so you would have been easily able to chase them down and kill them if they pushed into your base if you had that plasma damage.

Then again Ace. Its not just the Terminators cost , Its the GK Squadron as well. GK srsrly have very Expensive units . Quite a hefty bleeding if you count Int/SS/Purifiers,etc. There's so many Counters to Paladins Especially Chaos & Derpdar armies with lv3-4 Squads,Paladins/GK Termies are normally supported by Gk Lib & BC

David-CZ wrote:Nobs are unit which doesn't belong in your list for reasons such as being suppressible and knock-able unit, having to upgrade various wargear to fulfill their potential and having to spend red to use their ability. Of all the T3 units this is the one that is balanced.

Units such as GUO and Avatar have a major disadvantage, that is being snared and stunned with proper anti av. Plus they don't have the benefit of being simply teleported out of harm.

Finally Terminators, as in SM and Chaos ones, are a call-in unit that costs red plus have a cooldown upon calling. Unlikely as it may be, it is possible to build Paladins and GK Terminators one after another without having to wait. Now I don't know if that is still the case, but I recall seeing Paladins having a very cheap reinforce cost compared to Terminators. And there is still the one think that makes me laugh every time. The HP regeneration aura that heals them as fast as if they were standing in the base. I can't quite comprehend the logic behind this. Instead of having to wait for the unit to heal for a long period of time as it has so much health, it is given a HP regen aura so that you can pop them up in the battle in no time. Shouldn't the waiting be the price for having a unit so durable?

Well, GK squadron if you count SS/interceptors/Purifiers,etc player has. His Entire army is Expensive . i Think tha'ts why they gave a reasonable price to GK termies/Paladins reinforce quite cheaply then other Terminator variants .

Their don't drop via Global call-in ,and Normally its quite hard to get them out ASAP In t3 ,U can field Nobz faster than Terminators , Nobz has Multiple ugprades + Warbozz globals & Painboy/Mekboy support, they become Incredibly tough & Just Completely wreak your Shit. tbh Paladins are not really game-changer unit unlike Nobz .

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:
Well, GK squadron if you count SS/interceptors/Purifiers,etc player has. His Entire army is Expensive . i Think tha'ts why they gave a reasonable price to GK termies/Paladins reinforce quite cheaply then other Terminator variants .

And they also cost 350red less than all other termies variants.

David-CZ wrote:Nobs are unit which doesn't belong in your list for reasons such as being suppressible and knock-able unit, having to upgrade various wargear to fulfill their potential and having to spend red to use their ability. Of all the T3 units this is the one that is balanced.

Units such as GUO and Avatar have a major disadvantage, that is being snared and stunned with proper anti av. Plus they don't have the benefit of being simply teleported out of harm.

This is really making me chuckle.
I don't think you understand what a disadvantage they have by not being able to retreat on top of being so slow. You can't do anything against stuns for example. Not to mention get that speed boost and dmg reduction to ranged from retreating while getting to the base to heal up. And they are big targets meaning that av weapons are like snipers on steroids against them.

David-CZ wrote:And there is still the one think that makes me laugh every time. The HP regeneration aura that heals them as fast as if they were standing in the base. I can't quite comprehend the logic behind this. Instead of having to wait for the unit to heal for a long period of time as it has so much health, it is given a HP regen aura so that you can pop them up in the battle in no time. Shouldn't the waiting be the price for having a unit so durable?

Base: Allied infantry units within a radius of 25 of the HQ take 50% reduced damage, can reinforce and get healed for 1% of their maximum health every second. Heroes are healed for 2.5% of their maximum health.

Paladins passive: Increases health regeneration of nearby allies by 2.5 hp/s and decreases received courage damage by 50%.

As you can see the 2 effects are very different.
Paladins aren't (or shouldn't be) affected by their own passive either.

LOOK UP THINGS BEFORE TALKING ABOUT THEM!
(This isn't solely directed towards you but many people on here.)

What a relief it is that one can always simply host a non-GK game. Don't get me wrong, I accept your opinions. They just didn't make me stop seeing things from my own perspective.

Ace of Swords wrote:1) You were a tier behind
2) you had a completely useless vehicle
3)all you had to do was equip plasma guns, first on your TM then on the 2 tacts and keep alive that dred with global repair/tm/scouts while tacts with plasmas were focusing the paladins.
4)Might aswell go for the signum armor.

David-CZ wrote:I believe your answer is the perfect example of how ridiculous this actually is. In order to counter one unit you have to dedicate your entire army to fight it not only with adequate equipment, without which they are rendered useless, but using red as well.

Uhh... I'm going on Ace's description here but let me get this straight.... So you wanted to counter Terminators with your hero and tier 1 units (two Tacs) but you think it's BS if you can't do it without buying upgrades?

1) Are you serious
2) Plasma guns are extremely good vs. SHI
3) If you add Signum the Termies will start melting
4) You probably shouldn't melee 200 dps Termies with unsupported Dread
5) But if you back it up with plasma and Signum (increases melee damage) they are fucked, especially if they get Fist + Mark Target and focused while not in melee

Seriously if your opponent spent 300/150 on tier 3 and then 650/150 on Terminators and you didn't then you are gonna have to make some significant investments to counter them right?!

650/150 for Paladins (108/25 reinforce) and 650/100 for Terminators (108/16)

650/100/350 for SM Terminators (150/50 reinforce)

500/100 for Nobs (75/15 reinforce) + 240/115 for upgrades

700/100 for Seers (84/12 reinforce)

Something isn't right here. I'd say it's funny, but it's not.

500/100 for Nobs (75/15 reinforce)

Sorry for off topic but what do you think about this reinforcing cost? IMO for what nobz do they should be hella expensive to reinforce. Same reinforcing cost have ogryns. And they 2 times worse than nobz. 100 / 18 to reinforce nobz? People very often overextend nobz and this is very frustrating when they finally retreat with all models and 2/5 or 1/5 health due to huge health pool of models.

@Sub_Zero:
When without their upgrades the cost seems fine. With them, I don't know. Don't forget that you also have to spend red on their ability in order to make them withstand all the damage and ignore suppression.

Also I don't know how much effect a change like 75/15 to 100/18 would actually have.
A change of price like the one to scouts after buying a sniper rifle perhaps? But than again, a rifle is a possibility, while Nob upgrades are more of a next step.

David-CZ wrote:650/150 for Paladins (108/25 reinforce) and 650/100 for Terminators (108/16)

650/100/350 for SM Terminators (150/50 reinforce)

500/100 for Nobs (75/15 reinforce) + 240/115 for upgrades

700/100 for Seers (84/12 reinforce)

Something isn't right here. I'd say it's funny, but it's not.

I'm assuming you're talking about the reinforce cost and the red cost of sm termies?

Flash wrote:I'm assuming you're talking about the reinforce cost and the red cost of sm termies?

Indeed.

David-CZ wrote:

Flash wrote:I'm assuming you're talking about the reinforce cost and the red cost of sm termies?

Indeed.

I personally think that SM termies red cost and their reinforce is too high. But I'm not as qualified to speak on the synergy and balance of the SM faction as a whole in regards to their Termies as I am GK.

Now what does this replay remind me of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4uNJWvxtmk

@Flash:
Based on the replay I'd say that it's Paladins and GK Terminators that are in need of change.

It reminds me of the fact that few people know how to counter GK.

David-CZ wrote:Now what does this replay remind me of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4uNJWvxtmk

@Flash:
Based on the replay I'd say that it's Paladins and GK Terminators that are in need of change.

Considering that guy didn't do too much to counter those termies, if he went sc/double reapers with levi field/wraithlord/falcon with DR, he would pretty much win imo

Flash wrote:I personally think that SM termies red cost and their reinforce is too high. But I'm not as qualified to speak on the synergy and balance of the SM faction as a whole in regards to their Termies as I am GK.

Apparently when "SM players" say something they are called whiners for some odd reason. But yes, the power cost is too high for the reinforce cost imo too.

Based on that replay I'd say that the Eldar player needs to learn to make better decisions...

He had no real counter to SHI and he didn't get anything until it was too late. He was waaays of from T3 let alone any powerful T3 units. He had counters for Termies in T2, yet he opted not to go for them. Also the 2 units his enemy had on the field were both easily capable of bashing power and he had no way to stop them. So trying to rush T3 at that point was a very bad decision.

This meant that instead of having hard counters for GK Termies fast (in perhaps less than 2 minutes), he waited 5 mins to get a Prism. This 5 mins he let the Termies roam free and bleed him of resources, vps and bash some gens. Not to mention that he gave his opponent ample time to rebuild his army.

Dark Riku wrote:Apparently when "SM players" say something they are called whiners for some odd reason. But yes, the power cost is too high for the reinforce cost imo too.

?. I was just going with I almost never play vanilla SM anymore.

Flash wrote:?. I was just going with I almost never play vanilla SM anymore.

Ok? You do realize I'm agreeing with you, right?
And that the first part of the post wasn't directed towards you? :p

David-CZ wrote:Now what does this replay remind me of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4uNJWvxtmk

@Flash:
Based on the replay I'd say that it's Paladins and GK Terminators that are in need of change.

Poor Eldar play.

Dark Riku wrote:weeeeee. (Not intended to cause offense. Just feeling random)

Yeah. Just wanted to clarify my point and make sure I understood yours.

You see Paladins as Eldar? A few simple steps will make your life much easier:

1. Buy dark reapers.
2. Get their aspect and exarch (don't need the missile launcher, although it is nice).
3. Drink the tears of your opponent