Project Balance: Eldar section

[Tex]

I have officially begun to compile replays for project balance: "eldar section" as of last week. I made my first post and will continue to supply a steady stream of replays that demonstrate specific topics and areas of concern.

Some of the current hot topics with eldar are:

Dark reapers: cost vs performance vs tier position

Webway gates: cost vs performance

Eldar hero wargear overperforming: specifically warp throw, MWB, channeling runes, spirit stones, doom bringer, enhanced warp jump generator, heavy guage death spinner

GU and Ranger upgrades: cost vs performance (these upgrades offer a fuck ton for 15 and 10 power respectively)

Links to replays:

beta 5:

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9568041

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289063

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289064

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289065

beta 6:

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9573268

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9578668

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289553

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289554

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289555

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289556

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289557

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=289558

[crazyman64335]

Webway gates: cost vs performance

Crazyman's official take - TOO DAMN HIGH

[Tex]

Lol, is that in regard to that one US "rent is too damned high" representative guy?

[Caeltos]

You know, there's this thing iirc that is something about general game design & mechanics and in conjunction with how it works with balance, it's something about "If it removes the players ability to react, or play - it's a bad"

I think this was in response to how CC worked in World of Warcraft in PVP a while back. And there was diminishable returns to counter-act it, as well as with PVP insignias to reduce the frequency of the CC abilities.

Then it was something from a moba game that had the idea to not to be too dependant on general CC, because it removed the players ability to again, react, play and make some adapative play. So there's items, abilities and misc. stuff that are added to reduce the effect of it.

Now, here's the catch tho with Dawn of War. There's alot of general guide-line of abilities that are just blatanly designed to be "Fucking annoying" to deal with. How the actual attack pays off from it's effect, is however - completely irrelevant. Because it's just really annoying having to backtrack from an attack which you had planned. So you're forced to make the move to counteract let's say, the Webway Gates.

Webway Gates will NEVER find it's true "Balance" because it's blatanly designed and meant to be a guerilla warfare type of strategy, and those things are always just really god damn annoying to deal with, regardless of what games you're playing or what genre. Forcing the hand of the other player to react to your numerous attacks, which have staggering performance given loads of variables of factors - is not very fun to deal with. But it's fun utilizing.

Dealing with Poke strats in MOBA games are annoying, because you always feel like you're on the back end of things, and the way to approach them is to go for all-ins. Fluxuating results, and it's a a time-bomb before you fall.

Dealing with 2-3 drops all over your bases in SC2? God damn annoying, you've gotta split your main force. Micro vs Micro and blah blah blah. It's just designed to be an annoying attack, and that thing always get people riled up either way.

It doesn't matter if we bump up the price to 50 to 75, or to 100. Someone is going to make it work regardless, and will have the exact same result and pay-off, if not better if he utilizes it better. The player has no idea how much red was put down onto the red, and how much he has accumulated, and will completely ignore the investments made into it. He webway gates, gets a squad on retreat, he webway gates, kills your gen-farm. All profitable actions that doesn't get solved by upping the price or not.

Now, webways are just an example. Warp Throw limits your effect to do anything, and puts you in a spot you probably wish not to be in. But god damnit, that's just the theme of the ability itself tho. If it does that, then it does it job fine. It's not a fun mechanic maybe, but that's just how things are panned out to be like. Eldar reeks of inherit designs that just reek of "Annoying" to deal with, but despite that - they might not actually be unbalanced per se. If a player gets annoyed by an ability, he loses his temper and gets onfocused, and statistically, people who lose their temper or focus during a game has a higher lose percentage then others. So the best way to deal with it just keep your cool and have a positive attitude, or just giggle over the annoyance instead.

Dark Reapers are fine for now, I don't plan on making any changes to them.

GU and Ranger upgrades: cost vs performance (these upgrades offer a fuck ton for 15 and 10 power respectively)

There are quite numerous of changes that were made to the Rangers & Guardians in both the early-game and mid-game tho.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

It doesn't matter if we bump up the price to 50 to 75, or to 100. Someone is going to make it work regardless, and will have the exact same result and pay-off, if not better if he utilizes it better.

The player has no idea how much red was put down onto the red, and how much he has accumulated, and will completely ignore the investments made into it. He webway gates, gets a squad on retreat, he webway gates, kills your gen-farm. All profitable actions that doesn't get solved by upping the price or not.

Following this argument, why no make Chaos Shrines cost no pop, for example? Or Bunkers? Or the Teleport Beacon? Or any kind of structure which gives/helps to retain map control, as Eldar Webways does?

[David-CZ]

Personally I'd add a change for Levitation Blade of FS's. It doesn't happen often but she still can cap upon using the ability. It would be better if it stopped from capping just like any target ability. I say this despite FS being my primary hero.

[Vapor]

Personally I'd add a change for Levitation Blade of FS's. It doesn't happen often but she still can cap upon using the ability. It would be better if it stopped from capping just like any target ability. I say this despite FS being my primary hero.

Well it's sort of akin to abilities like big stomp or kill the weak, which also knock back or disable nearby enemies. Most of these work while capping.

[Asmon]

Personally I'd add a change for Levitation Blade of FS's. It doesn't happen often but she still can cap upon using the ability. It would be better if it stopped from capping just like any target ability. I say this despite FS being my primary hero.

Not just like any. There are litteraly dozens of ability that allow you to do it.

[Caeltos]

It doesn't matter if we bump up the price to 50 to 75, or to 100. Someone is going to make it work regardless, and will have the exact same result and pay-off, if not better if he utilizes it better.

The player has no idea how much red was put down onto the red, and how much he has accumulated, and will completely ignore the investments made into it. He webway gates, gets a squad on retreat, he webway gates, kills your gen-farm. All profitable actions that doesn't get solved by upping the price or not.

Following this argument, why no make Chaos Shrines cost no pop, for example? Or Bunkers? Or the Teleport Beacon? Or any kind of structure which gives/helps to retain map control, as Eldar Webways does?

We did try a Chaos Shrine pop cost reduction to nil and then swapped it around abit. The upkeep and additional units in conjunction with the shrines was abit downright silly and too much to deal with. Similiar principles apply to the Bunkers and Beacon. The pop is there to ensure there's no overbundance of synergy and units around.

[Lulgrim]

It would be better if it stopped from capping just like any target ability.

It's not a targeted ability, though - you don't select a target.

[David-CZ]

It's not a targeted ability, though - you don't select a target.

Sorry for misunderstanding. What I meant is to make the ability stop from capping as if it was a targeted ability.

The disruption has much longer duration compared to abilities that knock-back like Kill the weak for instance.

[Torpid]

It doesn't matter if we bump up the price to 50 to 75, or to 100. Someone is going to make it work regardless, and will have the exact same result and pay-off, if not better if he utilizes it better.

The player has no idea how much red was put down onto the red, and how much he has accumulated, and will completely ignore the investments made into it. He webway gates, gets a squad on retreat, he webway gates, kills your gen-farm. All profitable actions that doesn't get solved by upping the price or not.

It may not make webways useless, but that's not the point. I really am failing to follow your argument here. The simple matter of the fact is that for 50 red there's no real risk involved in building webways, not to mention at any point when eldar are having a bit of a hard time they can just drop down 3-7 webways all over the place.

There has to be more of an inconvenience to building webways, they have to have more of an initial investment and more of a downside if they fail. So, once again I would suggest making them cost more, namely 75 red, and adding a cooldown to the use of the global.

Regarding warp throw and similar abilities which you simply can't do anything to counter and simply must take into consideration such as purgatus, menacing visage, time field, phase shift, providence etc, the simple solution is to ensure that they aren't too easy to get, i.e. make them t3 and make them expensive. I do think the price of warp throw is fine atm, but I think it ought to be t3 considering how it solely can change an entire engagement massively.

[Ace of Swords]

Of course they don't have to be useless, that wouldn't be balanced either, and of course they have to work, but for now the advantage they grant overweights extremely their cost.

From one side you have invisibility,beign able to spawn everywhere on the map, an activable ability,chances to intercept retreat pathing,easy power bashes.

On the other you have 50 red.

[Broodwich]

You know, the main thing to me about gates is that you can drop them down anywhere as long as you have vision of it, and that's it. It really should be something guardians have to physically build, taking time and resources away from doing everything else.

It doesn't need to cost red either, just make Em like IG turrets, some req and maybe a bit of power, and it's an actual investment vs lol I put gayte heer

[Tex]

I disagree with making warp gates build-able. It just adds more work for the Lords of this Mod.

I don't see why webways gates cant be given a double nerf to compensate for their double buff. Let's keep them invisible. Let's leave their abilities as they are. But to compensate, let's make them cost 75 red, and let's give the global a 1 minute cooldown instead of a 0 cooldown.

***And just as a note, I will continually update the first post of this thread so keep on checking the front page.***

[ThongSong]

how about making the gate non-invisible when units are about to come out?

[FiSH]

@ThongSong
what do you mean "about to come out?"

1. when units get inside the gates because then they can come out at any point? then how to know which exit webway is to be chosen? this would mean revealing all gates, which does not sound good.
2. when you press ungarisson from the gates? but the garisson mechanic is such that you instantly go inside/come outside of buildings/transports. so i am not sure if that can be changed either.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

It doesn't matter if we bump up the price to 50 to 75, or to 100. Someone is going to make it work regardless, and will have the exact same result and pay-off, if not better if he utilizes it better.

The player has no idea how much red was put down onto the red, and how much he has accumulated, and will completely ignore the investments made into it. He webway gates, gets a squad on retreat, he webway gates, kills your gen-farm. All profitable actions that doesn't get solved by upping the price or not.

Following this argument, why no make Chaos Shrines cost no pop, for example? Or Bunkers? Or the Teleport Beacon? Or any kind of structure which gives/helps to retain map control, as Eldar Webways does?

We did try a Chaos Shrine pop cost reduction to nil and then swapped it around abit. The upkeep and additional units in conjunction with the shrines was abit downright silly and too much to deal with. Similiar principles apply to the Bunkers and Beacon. The pop is there to ensure there's no overbundance of synergy and units around.

A question, now that you've reminded me of this - with the bunkers and their pop, when an enemy grabs your bunker and turns it to one of their own, does the pop transfer over to the new player, or does it remain with the faction that built it, regardless of current ownership?

[Rataxas]

Use hard cap for the gates in number of 3 max 4 no more.
Cost : 60 red
CD : 30 sec maybe max 60 sec
abilities : destructible ( so you can destroy it and build new on the map) , hp regen , cloak , energy regen , ( deppend on hero right ? )
Popcap : 0

[PePPeR]

Its not to say Eldar are like GKs and really slow to get around the map so in that respect they would need the gates, they sprint around the map fast enough anyways so its just buffing the hell out of their map control which mostly causes unfair disadvantage at the best of times.... the things that are more important in the game, globals, the more effective the higher the cost, the gates are very effective but cheap... im sure this is being looked at again so not a lot to keep going on about.

[Arbit]

I think I mentioned this in another thread before, but what do people think of making the gates partially reveal at range 10 or even 15? They would be easier to find with non-detectors and wouldn't require them to hug the gate in order to shoot it. One of the most annoying things about gates is I can see it constructing but if I don't kill it before it finishes then my tacs have to hump it in order to destroy it... then banshees pop out and you know how that goes.

Dunno if that's possible technical-wise, though.

[Vapor]

I think I mentioned this in another thread before, but what do people think of making the gates partially reveal at range 10 or even 15? They would be easier to find with non-detectors and wouldn't require them to hug the gate in order to shoot it. One of the most annoying things about gates is I can see it constructing but if I don't kill it before it finishes then my tacs have to hump it in order to destroy it... then banshees pop out and you know how that goes.

Dunno if that's possible technical-wise, though.

I like this idea.

[sk4zi]

im not an eldar player but i persnoally think, the nerf to the gates is enough for now.

the build time is really huge and now they give good xp and red.

eldar are very mobile with high damage, but expensive and fragile
its intendet that their mobility is far more than every other race.

i think it wount hurt the eldar player too much when they cost 75, but it would not change anything. or lets say much.

[Broodwich]

I disagree with making warp gates build-able. It just adds more work for the Lords of this Mod.

Is that your only objection?

[Raffa]

I disagree with making warp gates build-able. It just adds more work for the Lords of this Mod.

I don't see why webways gates cant be given a double nerf to compensate for their double buff. Let's keep them invisible. Let's leave their abilities as they are. But to compensate, let's make them cost 75 red, and let's give the global a 1 minute cooldown instead of a 0 cooldown.

***And just as a note, I will continually update the first post of this thread so keep on checking the front page.***

I have written so many posts arguing for this kind of change I've lost count.

@Caeltos
I showed your argument to a few players yesterday...Look I agree with you on a lot of things even if I don't openly admit it but seriously gates do not just give a trolling style anymore. They've evolved with the meta to give ridonculous map control, squad wipe potential and power bashing that it's just plain broken. Because there are so many antisocial areas of map if the Eldar player is careful there is no way you can systematically track and destroy the gates without surrendering serious map control or risking an army popping out of them. I don't know what else to say.

And as far as your "removes your ability to react" argument goes, well with respect farseer gates do exactly that.

Gates still nowhere near as bad as shuri upgrading to brightlance however.

[David-CZ]

Gates still nowhere near as bad as shuri upgrading to brightlance however.

I recall brightlances having faster set-up time and longer range than other AV set-up teams to make up for it being a different unit. Has this been changed?

[FiSH]

I recall brightlances having faster set-up time and longer range than other AV set-up teams to make up for it being a different unit. Has this been changed?

brightlance setup/teardown time was not faster than any typical las cannon, its range is also the same at 65 in retail. i can't speak for anything earlier than 3.19.1 because i never played earlier versions.

something like havok lascannon desetsup slowly and so forth, but generally speaking, brightlance was just a slightly more damaging, non-snaring, and less-bursty av setup team.

[Raffa]

Whether it has or has not you cannot go use light vehicles against Eldar because of them. Previously you could punish Eldar early T2 with a fast vehicle (a loooooongass time ago) to compensate for the whole of the other game where Eldar manoeuvrability and killiness gives them an edge, now this is gone. So where is Eldar vulnerable? Nowhere, they're pretty damn near a perfect race. Seriously what do they suffer against? What weaknesses do they have? Oh and the shuri was designed as the best originally to compensate for this. Eg damage sharing, easy to use nature, high damage, fast, etc...

Crusher is not timing-effective because of brightlance, which defeats the whole purpose of the BC.
Trukk (key for a lot of ork plays) = useless vs BL.

Both units that are meant to be vulnerable but very capable. Just vulnerable vs Eldar.

And then WL BL has 100% fotm...
And fire dragons...why were they needed again? Eldar AV is so strong as is.
etc..

This is the only time I'd actually advocate removing a unit from the game.

[Ace of Swords]

Tbh, you can't use light vehicles vs eldar because their whole T2 counters, it, Dark reapers take down razorbacks quickly, wraithlords with 100% fotm are lols, warspiders nades are the best at disabling vehicles, and the falcon provides enough AV to treat any light vehicle.

[Torpid]

Tbh, you can't use light vehicles vs eldar because their whole T2 counters, it, Dark reapers take down razorbacks quickly, wraithlords with 100% fotm are lols, warspiders nades are the best at disabling vehicles, and the falcon provides enough AV to treat any light vehicle.

That's hyperbole, a good razorback play is still extremely effective on any map as the apo/tm, but obviously works best in the larger ones since wraithlords are nowhere near as effective. Dreadnoughts are the better choice as a FC since they have synergy with the power fist when fighting WLs not to mention an AC dread is a good source of bleed which the FC lacks since he himself does't have a ranged weapon.

I'm not particularly sure what to make of the WL BL state atm. On the one hand it is very powerful, but mainly with FS buffs, I find that it's a very heavy investment and I can quickly turn a game around by taking out a WL w/ BL, and it isn't too hard to do so, people tend to get a little greedy for vehicle kills and you can bait the WL.

I'm woefully unaware of how the retail meta is/was but I imagine it went something like 2x tacs/2x scouts + asm -> razorback + libby + devs -> termies the majority of the time. I mean fire prisms aren't too great a threat when you have missle tacs in a RB and/or VoT lascannon + melta bomb so you don't even need the tank that most other races need to deal with a prism.