Dawn of War Codex

Since my return to elite, I've witnessed something, which I've also seen a bit of before: the ork team metagame.

One word: Banners

Banners everywhere, or rather, not everywhere, but 10-20 piled up in a single position, to be ready to use power of the waaagh, to buff any ork shoota to have the DPS of a terminator, the supression immunity of one, and the speed of an autarch on crack. Its rediculous, how do you counter an ork player/team who's reached critical mass with their waagh banners?

I know one answer: Go around them, well that's nice and all, until an ork waaagh comes barreling down on you from halfway across the map, with the speed of a comet reaching terminal velocity on a high-gravity, atmosphere-free world!

I think its fine that waaagh banners stack until a certain point, but having the effectiveness of the ork army increase exponentially towards an infinite series, just seems stupid.

I agree, could be better if they stack up to 3 but best thing I find is just to back off let the buff go but as we all know that isn't practical.

Not sure how they managed to build 20, since you have a max of 4 per player iirc.

Either defeat the army when they're not around them or take them out with artillery.

Or any of that. I will leave now.

Just kick Uncle Waagh when you see him, it's all his fault.
I'm certainly not an accomplice.

Having a team on voicechat with a pre-arranged strategy is certainly an advantage but Orks are more exploitable than most with a little coordination due to how Waagh mechanics work on timing windows. If they were never intended to reach these levels of power because coordination was never taken into account then it certainly should be toned down.

I agree with golden chicken on banners
they need to be nerfed
increase in the cost would fix it. perhaps some power to build them (like 120 requisition + 5 power) (from 75-0 if i am not mistaken,to 120-5)

They don't need a nerf, thy just need a limit. Like, 3 banner buffs can be added up together at most. Otherwise, they will become as worthless as khorne shrines.

how about if they wouldnt be able to stack the buffs anymore?
like tyranid towers or brood nest

Khorne shrines are useless you say?.........

Enemy needs to fight within shrines effect distance

- build the shrine
- wait until enemy comes close to your shrine so you can fight with 10% bonus
- fail because enemy will shoot the shit out of you with range fire

The possiblity of Khorne shrine to be useful is very very very low, even for a 1v1. That 10% damage buff a few patches ago was the best and did not couse any problems. Dunno why it changed.

If you are going to cry about Bloodletter spawns, save it. I am talking about the new passive buffs of Chaos shrines and comparing thier effectiveness.

Well tbf waaagh banners cost 75 req and 10 red which means before first engagement u can gather a maximum of 2 waaagh banners per player. The waaagh buff is temporarily so maybe u can try to bait the enemy to activate all his waaagh banners making them waste it and then attack when it wears off, like in dow3 pretty much . Multiple waaagh banners can be ridicolous with multiple ork players since the effect can be so high that units gain temporarily supression immunity and high speed. But i dont c it working dat much in 1v1 since u need to buy power + get in most cases a t1.5 unit. Idk what this summary is, but whatever xd.

egewithin wrote:The possiblity of Khorne shrine to be useful is very very very low, even for a 1v1.

Just make the banners only effect your own troops. Problem solved.

Cyris wrote:Just make the banners only effect your own troops. Problem solved.

Actually lots of team game problems boils down to that. Some synergies were down right overpowered and thus was banned in some ways.

Options include but not limited to
1. Directly nerfing its ability
2. Making it affect only allies of the same faction
3. Making it affect only your own troops

Directly nerfing its ability can result in affecting 1 v 1 balance which is the main focus of this mod so when 2 is not an option, 3 is most likely the best way to tone it down.

Well i would think we talk about waaaagh banner spam with multiple ork players, so 2 would definetly not be the solution but number 3, if its rlly overperforming in team games.

Teamplay in teamgames should be rewarded.
If you don't want this kind of stuff to happen. Go play 1v1.

learn how to play against it, it's not that strong

PianoMan wrote:learn how to play against it, it's not that strong

You have any tips?

TheGoldenChicken wrote:

PianoMan wrote:learn how to play against it, it's not that strong

You have any tips?

I can only suggest quite literally feigning a fighting retreat or basically running away until the effects work off. Otherwise, disruption, disruption, disruption. If they're going to outright abuse the Waaagh Banners in a stand up fight, deny them the ability to fight at all with mass amounts of artillery, knockback, or suppression. Or use a cheaper tactic yourself and outrange them (Ranger spam is too stronk). Being honest, OP is right that the stacking benefits of having so many banners around gets very ridiculous and I think a radius of effect that is better since the Orks are forced to hold their ground if they want to continue to benefit.

Dark Riku wrote:Teamplay in teamgames should be rewarded.

We tested the absolute waagh banner madness. 3 Sluggaz were able to kill a LRR in a minute. Go figure.

Waagh banners are fine by default but it really becomes a problem if they are abused. I mean, there are ways to punish any kind of build. But this one, as I have tested before, is pretty much impossible to deal with. You just can't fight against over 60 Orks (3 squads per every one of 3 players) supported with 3 Waagh banners. With a 72% damage buff, + 3 speed, - 72% suppression. And these are passive buffs, Frazzle is just worse.

If all Frazzle's are activated together with 12 banners, you will get; 54% damage buff, -14,4 supression and -54% less damage taken. Also increases your speed by 2,5.

Please remember that you are facing this ungodly buffs in T1, even before you get your set up teams. You just won't be able to fight against it, it is impossible. Your enemies needs to be total morons to loose with all these buffs.

It is just sooooooo unfair that Orks can get this amount of buffs by only spending 300 req per player and 40 red.

As I said before, banners are fine by default, but it is literally impossible to deal with it if 6 or 8 of the mare combined, 12 is a bit extream but still very easy to achive

egewithin wrote:

Dark Riku wrote:Teamplay in teamgames should be rewarded.

We tested the absolute waagh banner madness. 3 Sluggaz were able to kill a LRR in a minute. Go figure.

Waagh banners are fine by default but it really becomes a problem if they are abused. I mean, there are ways to punish any kind of build. But this one, as I have tested before, is pretty much impossible to deal with. You just can't fight against over 60 Orks (3 squads per every one of 3 players) supported with 3 Waagh banners. With a 72% damage buff, + 3 speed, - 72% suppression. And these are passive buffs, Frazzle is just worse.

If all Frazzle's are activated together with 12 banners, you will get; 54% damage buff, -14,4 supression and -54% less damage taken. Also increases your speed by 2,5.

Please remember that you are facing this ungodly buffs in T1, even before you get your set up teams. You just won't be able to fight against it, it is impossible. Your enemies needs to be total morons to loose with all these buffs.

It is just sooooooo unfair that Orks can get this amount of buffs by only spending 300 req per player and 40 red.

As I said before, banners are fine by default, but it is literally impossible to deal with it if 6 or 8 of the mare combined, 12 is a bit extream but still very easy to achive

if you're letting them get all these banners than its your own fault dont let them set up so easily

I want to see 3 flash gits with waaaagh banner buffs

I'll try to say this with utmost respect, but to the complainers out there, have you ever played another team game in another strategy game? Do you know what happens when you start multiplying auras and spells? THIS IS THE FATE OF TEAM MATCHES, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU MOVE UP TO 3V3 OR EVEN SOMETHING LIKE 4V4!!!!

A specific example I have for you comes from Warcraft 3 (a game which I used to be very good at). My best team mate and I would combine 2 auras and a spell to make a specific unit go crazy and perform WAY out of its normal limitations. If you remember WC3 at all, we combined the "endurance aura (increased attack speed and move speed)", "unholy aura (increased movement speed and regeneration)", and the spell "unholy frenzy (75% increased attack speed at the cost of taking DoT)" and put them all on a bunch of wyverns (flying units with moderate damage and moderate hp). The net result was a timing attack that had MASSIVE movement speed, good regeneration, and INSANELY HIGH attack speed causing outrageous DPS.
Normally you would counter flyers with stout piercing units and over power them with a better armor and damage type against their armor. However, because of this outrageous synergy, we were able to move forward, kill the entire front line, reposition quickly, and then repeat the process.

The point of this story is that something as outrageous as this cannot be done in a 1v1. Not even close.

Cross-racial synergies are what make team games incredibly hard to balance, but also incredibly fun to play... Just try putting UYC on ASM when they fight banshees solo and this truth becomes very evident.

Tex wrote:...

I can only second this. Teamgames can bring forth such crazy combos. But that is what's fun about them. Also, considering one of you/them was Space Marines, I am at a loss how you/they were not able to deal with this. Basically every commander has T1 tools to deal with this. I will even go so far to say that Apo and TM deal with it better than FC in T1 (one might have to lab that actually, BC buffs on shotguns/flamers...). Mines and Vials ftw! As far as infantry goes, stack up on Scouts with shotguns. Constant knockback and their close-range dmg combined with their high movement speed can decimate that army. It requires more micro but you will heavily, I repeat, HEAVILY bleed the Ork.

not even close - shootas kill scouts in seconds in team games. so massin' scouts is a fail in a long term. And fix purification nade speed for that way!

banners aren't going to be changed

and wp Tex, let's hope people never discover what you can do with VoT on allied melee

LOCALgHOST wrote:And fix purification nade speed for that way!

no

Forestradio wrote:banners aren't going to be changed

and wp Tex, let's hope people never discover what you can do with VoT on allied melee

LOCALgHOST wrote:And fix purification nade speed for that way!

no

I put VoT(Viel of Time) or FTE(For the Emperor) on allied Terminators or Banshees all the time. The problem with buffing teammates is they sometimes don't notice and then retreat their unit, which wastes your buff. It's even more depressing than when people slow down my faster Tac caps by double capping.

LOCALgHOST wrote:not even close - shootas kill scouts in seconds in team games. so massin' scouts is a fail in a long term. And fix purification nade speed for that way!

I was referring to the mass slugga army....

Also, how does one manage to lose a LRR to Sluggas only? It activated the Barrage once and half of them should be dead. The other half should get torched to death by the flamers.

Also, this has been done long before