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Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 3:55 am
by Caeltos
Welcome to the first(I guess?) unit preview, this one is for the Vindicare Assassin.
Who is the Vindicare Assassin?
The Vindicare Temple is one of the temples of the Officio Assassinorum. The motto of the temple is Exitus Acta Probat, "the Outcome Justifies the Deed." Vindicare operatives are the most skilled snipers in the Imperium of Man and are usually directed to assassinate targets who are believed to have been possessed by daemonic entities or to have been corrupted by the Ruinous Powers of Chaos.
What is the units overall role and functionality within the GK army?
The Vindicare Assassin will provide with a long range poke/peel potential, instead of relying on alot of commitment to fighting. Providing with tools to force fights, allowing the Grey Knights to play defensively
He is also, the first introduced Sniper unit that has potent anti-vehicle countermeasures. Altho, not quite as independant as you might think, he gives you alot of manueverability and flexibility to your overall army composition.
Will this potentially stream-line Grey Knight playstyle?
There's certainly a possibility here. But given how you want to approach things in the early-game and how you transition to mid-game // late-game, the Vindicare Assassin will have his prime time during T2. Of course, purchasing him - means you're giving up some pop cap, so there might not be a luxury moment of having both Terminators/LRC's if you opt for him. So it's best to be careful with how you build your army up.
So, he is a sub-commander and in T2? Two of those in T2?
This will be evaluated, and there's a potential there's some changes down the line primarily for the Grey Knight Librarian. Given there's also the Dreadknight on the way, there's bound to be some changes abound.
Enough chit, chat - here's a quick draft & preview of the units overall stats / abilities
Turbo-penetrator Round
Specialized bullet that allows the Vindicare Assassin to deal damage to even the most heaviest of armored targets. If fired upon a vehicle, it will become temporarily disabled for a short period of seconds.
Target Acquired
Briefly increase the weapon range of the Vindicator Asssassin by 100% and reload/duration frequency by equal amounts.
Cost - Undetermined , but do not expect a very high natural cost for the unit. It will be the lowest of all Tier 2 units.
Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 5:18 am
by Lulgrim
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 7:07 am
by Nuclear Arbitor
Caeltos wrote:Target Acquired
Briefly increase the weapon range of the Vindicator Asssassin by 100% and reload/duration frequency by equal amounts.
so he takes longer to fire when using it but has a longer range?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 10:25 am
by Ace of Swords
He is also, the first introduced Sniper unit that has potent anti-vehicle countermeasures.
So there are no numbers or anything yet, but im going to assume it can infiltrate, do alot of AV damage atleast with abilities, how are you going to fix the buff-debuff stacking with the libby so that the vindicare doesn't go around 1 shotting tanks and transports in 1 rear armor shot?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 12:24 pm
by Orkfaeller
Will he be able to one-shot Marines?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 12:42 pm
by Caeltos
Nuclear Arbitor wrote:Caeltos wrote:Target Acquired
Briefly increase the weapon range of the Vindicator Asssassin by 100% and reload/duration frequency by equal amounts.
so he takes longer to fire when using it but has a longer range?
Yes, correct.
So there are no numbers or anything yet, but im going to assume it can infiltrate, do alot of AV damage atleast with abilities, how are you going to fix the buff-debuff stacking with the libby so that the vindicare doesn't go around 1 shotting tanks and transports in 1 rear armor shot?
Well, considering if you want to chunk out both Librarian and a Vindicare Assassin - that's abit of a hefty investment you have to make, and the overall utility is going to be so-so, it'll be of course viable nontheless if you want to go for that route, but the overall ability/debuff rotation and chunking out damage, is probably more trickier then it sounds.
Considering, you need to apply your Librarian into range, whereas the Vindicare Assassin is more about forcing the movement, not neccasarily initiating a fight, which can promptly put him into a bad position. An example, would be that if there's a vehicle approaching you, you can apply the Turbo-Penetrator round to disable it, unlike Interceptors who are more promptly meant to be used agressively, the Turbo-Penetrator round gives you the chance in general to play it more cautiously against incoming vehicles, giving you a nice defensive-fortification/punishment method, which synergizes well with Lascannon Rhinos, or defensively placed Psycanons.
Generally, the cooldown of the ability will be play a large deciding factor.
Will he be able to one-shot Marines?
Maybe if he has a large chunk of buffs/debuffs(applied on the enemy), but his overall strength is that he's the best sniper unit in the game. He has a respectable fire rate, with high damage (However, it's only roughly +10 more compared to Scout Snipers) but with a rough-estimate fire rate of Rangers. He combines the best of the two, but of course - he's quite vulnerable to sniper fire as well, he can only take 2 sniper rounds before going down.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 12:59 pm
by Raffa
Caeltos wrote:Maybe if he has a large chunk of buffs/debuffs(applied on the enemy), but his overall strength is that he's the best sniper unit in the game. He has a respectable fire rate, with high damage (However, it's only roughly +10 more compared to Scout Snipers) but with a rough-estimate fire rate of Rangers. He combines the best of the two, but of course
OK so we're talking ~180 sniper damage per shot firing around every 7 seconds unless he has his ability active? Seems pretty sound.
What sight radius is he going to have? And I assume he will be able to infiltrate?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 1:00 pm
by Indrid
He will be a detector?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 1:02 pm
by Ace of Swords
Turbo-penetrator Round
Specialized bullet that allows the Vindicare Assassin to deal damage to even the most heaviest of armored targets. If fired upon a vehicle, it will become temporarily disabled for a short period of seconds.
I honestly think this is going to make an holy trinity in the GK rooster, raising them from the worst to the best AV, currently they miss a lascannon, alright, which means quite hard hitting AV with a slowing effect attached to it and a slow fire rate and
a setup time, but take this into consideration:
All the AV of GKs has no setup time and his instant, all they really miss is a snare outside the melta bomb (because going for interceptors in T1 will most likely result in not getting a purgation), Now you can freely get a purgation in T1 and counter setup teams with the BC/rhino out manouvering, in T2 you get the libby, then the assassin, in all of this you have alot of great anti infantry thx to both subcommanders a 30% damage increase debuff, a 25% infiltration-damage buff for the purgation, and a long ranged hardstun/disable on the vindicare and to finish off a lascannon rhino, and when the enemy vehicle goes down you retain full anti infantry capabilities without any penality.
tl;dr, lascannons and hard AV aren't all fun and games, they have many drawbacks, and sure like this it sounds good for gk players and it indeed fits the GK theme of versatility but it also sounds abit too good in game.
+10 more compared to Scout Snipers) but with a rough-estimate fire rate of Rangers. He combines the best of the two, but of course
This is extremely way better, more damage than scouts and just 1 more second on reload compared to rangers.
he's quite vulnerable to sniper fire as well, he can only take 2 sniper rounds before going down.
I assume from scouts?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 3:24 pm
by Caeltos
I assume from scouts?
From both Rangers and Scout Snipers.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 11:10 pm
by Nuclear Arbitor
so we're play coh2 now? german snipers area bitch to micro along with anything else.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Tue 05 Nov, 2013 11:31 pm
by Flash
As you know there are more counters to snipers than other snipers.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 12:31 am
by Forestradio
Looks pretty freaking sweet.
Just a few clarification questions:
1. Will turbo-penetrator round do actual damage or just disable stuff?
2. Does this fellow have a set-up time/tear down time?
3. Is he mutually exclusive with the GK libby?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 12:56 am
by Caeltos
Flash wrote:As you know there are more counters to snipers than other snipers.
Indeed, I only used the sniper vs sniper comparison for simplicity sake and as an general heads-up on the general principle and health value of the Vindicare Assassin.
Will turbo-penetrator round do actual damage or just disable stuff?
It will deal vehicle damage, as well as disable the vehicle. I was speculating about making it actually able to disable/stun everything, but I wanted to keep it more reasonable as a starting point.
Does this fellow have a set-up time/tear down time?
As it stands right now,
no. Is he mutually exclusive with the GK libby?
You can have both for now, but like I mentioned in the OP, this is abit of a subject to change.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 2:07 am
by HandSome SoddiNg
Ah. Finally Some AV complexity,Must be Unique for a Sub-commander to Snare Vehicular movements now ^^. Gladly looking forward to the Assassin's Arrival
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 3:44 am
by Flash
I'm thinking probably the ability with damage (honestly the damage might not be needed) would be ok, the ranged disable is what's truly needed. It allows for the combined arms that the gk are all about. Basically this makes purgation with psycannons significantly more viable. The unit and ability also opens up better synergy with say the dred.
What kind of range, damage and duration would you be thinking for the ability ?
Also I originally misread your post, the base damage is not anti vehicle, that would be OP
.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 6:27 am
by Dark Riku
Caeltos wrote:It will deal vehicle damage, as well as disable the vehicle. I was speculating about making it actually able to disable/stun everything, but I wanted to keep it more reasonable as a starting point.
Just to be clear here because nothing else does this.
Damage&disable meaning it will disable the weapons but not snare the vehicle?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 11:20 am
by Gray
Any screenshots? I wonder if it need any visual fixes. I've compiled new model with a head attached and minor animation bugs fixed. If it is necessary - I'll upload it.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 12:28 pm
by Caeltos
I did recieve your file the other day, but I can't actually open it. That's Lulgrims department.
Either way, feel free to upload the new & updated model. You could also chip in with a screenshot here so people got an idea what the guy looks like.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Thu 07 Nov, 2013 6:09 pm
by fok12
It will deal vehicle damage, as well as disable the vehicle. I was speculating about making it actually able to disable/stun everything, but I wanted to keep it more reasonable as a starting point.
Wouldn't then the Turbo-Penetrator be too powerful? I mean, it is a combination of the Hunter-Killer plus a stun. Sure haywire grenades also do that, but you need to be close.
I'm just asking btw, I really like to see new units implemented.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Thu 07 Nov, 2013 9:39 pm
by Flash
It'l be the only source of long ranged AV for the GK.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 5:08 am
by Gray
Caeltos wrote:Either way, feel free to upload the new & updated model. You could also chip in with a screenshot here so people got an idea what the guy looks like.
The point is that I am not a modder, so it requires a shaman dance to see model in-game and I can't achieve its' full functionality. So my screenshot's value is low. I was hope somebody more skilled will take it.
All I understand is that the model has Space Marine's grotescue proportions, that is not suitable for the assassin. Merged model can fix that. Also, merged model have no restrictions to be scaled down.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 5:55 am
by HandSome SoddiNg
Flash wrote:It'l be the only source of long ranged AV for the GK.
Also, Another means to Snare Vehicles with the Turbo-Penetrator rounds follow up with Kraks/Purgator psycannon/GK Dread/Purifiers or Watever shenanigans . VA has good Utility & Mobility with that Infiltration ability , He can do much more than ST on Map control i think
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 6:41 am
by David-CZ
Gray wrote:Caeltos wrote:Either way, feel free to upload the new & updated model. You could also chip in with a screenshot here so people got an idea what the guy looks like.
The point is that I am not a modder, so it requires a shaman dance to see model in-game and I can't achieve its' full functionality. So my screenshot's value is low. I was hope somebody more skilled will take it.
All I understand is that the model has Space Marine's grotescue proportions, that is not suitable for the assassin. Merged model can fix that. Also, merged model have no restrictions to be scaled down.
I know how you feel. It took me I'd say 8 hours of clear time to actually get things working trough importing the model and stuff to export it and have it in the game functional. I'll take a look at it as soon as I have some time.
Caeltos wrote:Does this fellow have a set-up time/tear down time?
As it stands right now,
no.
And will he be able to shoot right away like snipers and rangers can (if they haven't fired before) or will there be a delay as if he actually had to set up?
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 10:14 am
by Gray
Latest fix. Helmet is merged with body (I hope multi-materials will work properly).
Animation bones enevelopment is set manually (they was accidentally lost). Rifle is added and textured.
Functionality was tested in Model Editor, I hope in-game will be the same.
Archive link:
http://rapidshare.com/share/A07455FC0D5331C1CC646E25AB4500AB
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 6:55 pm
by Indrid
I feel like the armour textures should be a lot darker, and the Exitus Rifle should be either dark green or black. I've always seen them painted/illustrated that way. The models looks nice though.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 7:10 pm
by Lulgrim
You can test it by replacing scout models (art > race_marine > troops_wargear > armour > scout_armour_common > scout_armour_common.model - or _rare or _epic depending on your SM army level) and weapons_ranged > sniper_rifle_common/rare/epic.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 8:09 pm
by Gray
Indrid wrote:I feel like the armour textures should be a lot darker, and the Exitus Rifle should be either dark green or black. I've always seen them painted/illustrated that way. The models looks nice though.
The textures are not so shiny, it's because of shaders the model looks so bright.
Lulgrim wrote:You can test it by replacing scout models (art > race_marine > troops_wargear > armour > scout_armour_common > scout_armour_common.model - or _rare or _epic depending on your SM army level) and weapons_ranged > sniper_rifle_common/rare/epic.
I feel that instinctual, but my woodoo is not strong enough to make it work up to 100%. There are always minor problems with textures or meshes replaced improperly.
Maybe arms are not straight enough or grows from a wrong place...
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 10:14 pm
by Lulgrim
Then the model needs fixing, the result is exactly the same as me putting the model on a new unit.
Re: Unit Preview: Vindicare Assassin
Posted: Sat 09 Nov, 2013 12:34 am
by SirSid
Will he have a set up time like other snipers ?
If so how long will it be compared to other snipers ?