Dawn of War Codex

When they're really bad at melee?
...
What's up with that!?

They're actually not that bad at melee. There was this one time a flamer guardsman squad was ninja bashing me so I walked my rangers in to melee, the GM had to retreat.

they are bad at melee cos of low hp and no melee resistance, but they have ,nice' damage

modelers thought it looked cool.

The swords initially did power melee damage, but it made them OP since they were able to call-in gigantic robots to fight for them.

Are the Powersword Animations of the rangers used on any other Eldar unit in the game?

Nope. Unique to rangers

Shame, actually.

Little known fact: Rangers also have a special attack. They also do more dps in melee than ranged. (not considering damage type, that is)
With an initial shot to bleed a model and an infiltration to close the distance, they beat other T1 ranged squads in melee except tacs, CSMs, shootas, and strike squad.

Asmon wrote:The swords initially did power melee damage, but it made them OP since they were able to call-in gigantic robots to fight for them.

lold

But on a serious note, they still do power melee right?

And like it was said they do decent melee damage, they are just so frail that they will die quickly in melee, but atleast, when they have nothing better to do they can decently bash nodes/gens in melee.

but it made them OP since they were able to call-in gigantic robots to fight for them.

Robots? Explain please

I will say you more. They have a sync kill animation. Maybe even 2 animations if I am not mistaken

Ace of Swords wrote:But on a serious note, they still do power melee right?

Nope.


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Guess we need an Eldar Exodite or Harlequinn Commander now to not waste all those pretty animations



Edith: On a more serious note ( still want Harlequinns ) looks ALOT like Striking Scorpions, doesnt it?

I think it would be interesting if Rangers had a tier 2-3 that gave them power melee swords and 40% melee reduction.

Naturally the dude with the big gun wouldn't have power melee, but I think it would be interesting how it would play out.

I almost wouldn't mind an HP nerf if 40% melee reduction were available.

Orkfaeller wrote:Guess we need an Eldar Exodite or Harlequinn Commander now to not waste all those pretty animations



Edith: On a more serious note ( still want Harlequinns ) looks ALOT like Striking Scorpions, doesnt it?

I see an opportunity presenting itself to us.

xerrol-nanoha wrote:I think it would be interesting if Rangers had a tier 2-3 that gave them power melee swords and 40% melee reduction.

Naturally the dude with the big gun wouldn't have power melee, but I think it would be interesting how it would play out.

I almost wouldn't mind an HP nerf if 40% melee reduction were available.

Unless it was incredibly cheap no one would buy it. On rangers, really?

Scorpions was something I was considering probably like a year ago, and actually available as a T1 (first potential purchase)

The difference between the Scorpions // Banshees would be that Banshees, are the glass cannons - whereas the Scorpions were far more "tanky" and capable of just prolonging fights with sheer sustainability.

Obviously, that didn't happend.

May I ask why it didnt come about?

Because eldar aren't meant to be tanky and combined with the warlock with MWB/robes and 1,000,000 avengers/rangers that would be a nightmare?

I'd prefer it being a stealth unit over a tanky one.

Spartan717 wrote:I'd prefer it being a stealth unit over a tanky one.

They should be both. Acording to the lore that is. If you mean tanky as in Eldar kind of way tanky then that'd be fine I think. Definitely not as tanky as TSM but not dying after a few shots from CL's bolter. I also thought of them as another detector unit should they ever enter the game. But that'd have to be exclusive with the infiltration in order not to be OP I think.

Scorpions can infiltrate? I did not know that.
They wouldn't really strike me as an Infiltration unit in DoWII. Maybe Passive Infiltration, like Catachans or Genestealers.
To allow them to ley ambushes. But I'm not sure if I would want them to run around invisible.

Orkfaeller wrote:Guess we need an Eldar Exodite or Harlequinn Commander now to not waste all those pretty animations

Has this been considered before? I mean, if the model is available and we already have the animations then this could be an extremely cool addition to the now shooty-centric elder army. I'm finding in general I'm starting off with triple guardians, or double guardians and rushing shuri-plat/rangers. With the new Assassin and Pain Boy there is precedent for having two sub heroes, the Harlequin, Nay, Solitaire(!) could start with the Confuse special ability and have 650ish health and medium power melee damage. I'd prefer a Harlequin over striking scorpions, due to me imagining them to work like genestealers and those are only effect in a hand full of builds.

Anyway...Rangers.

They did used to have quite high power melee damage, I remember infiltrating up to a set up team and beating it up, but they got away with 1 model. They also added quite a good turret counter, I think they should have it back. It added different dimensions to an otherwise one direction unit (sniper), which I thought way cool.

If I had to pick between Harlequins and Scorpions I'd really dont know what to go for.

I REALLY do not like (space) elves, but those two are just bad arse imho.

But I think those Ranger Animations propably go better with hunched over Scorpions.

Harlequins I think would require Banshee or Autarch Animations, since Harlequins should do alot of leaping.

I'd prefer Striking Scorpions over Harlequins, not least because they would fill a different role than Howling Banshees, whereas Harlequins would be pretty much the same.

To be lore-friendly Striking Scorpions would be a heavy infantry melee squad. Decent damage output but not power weapons. Quite tanky but not as much as Space Marines. They should be able to upgrade to infiltration (at least while not moving) (and detection) and get an Exarch leader with the Scorpion's claw (it's like a power fist). Fleet of Foot as most Eldar units (with aspect upgrade I suppose), though they're not really supposed to be as fast as Banshees.

Also, their helmets has mandiblasters: "a short-ranged laser weapon used to deliver a deadly energy sting in close combat. Activated by a pshychic pick-up, they fire a hail of needle-thin shards that act as conductors for a highly charged laser." Not sure how that would work in DoW? Activated ability, one sec stun or extra damage?

Though I guess that's in the very distant future if ever. "A man can dream though, a man can dream."

Anyway, that was off topic. About the Rangers and their swords. Could be that they got a sword because some older tabletop Ranger models had swords?

Lesten wrote:I'd prefer Striking Scorpions over Harlequins, not least because they would fill a different role than Howling Banshees, whereas Harlequins would be pretty much the same.

To be lore-friendly Striking Scorpions would be a heavy infantry melee squad. Decent damage output but not power weapons. Quite tanky but not as much as Space Marines. They should be able to upgrade to infiltration (at least while not moving) (and detection) and get an Exarch leader with the Scorpion's claw (it's like a power fist). Fleet of Foot as most Eldar units (with aspect upgrade I suppose), though they're not really supposed to be as fast as Banshees.

Also, their helmets has mandiblasters: "a short-ranged laser weapon used to deliver a deadly energy sting in close combat. Activated by a pshychic pick-up, they fire a hail of needle-thin shards that act as conductors for a highly charged laser." Not sure how that would work in DoW? Activated ability, one sec stun or extra damage?

Though I guess that's in the very distant future if ever. "A man can dream though, a man can dream."

Anyway, that was off topic. About the Rangers and their swords. Could be that they got a sword because some older tabletop Ranger models had swords?

My only concern is oversaturation of melee types in Eldar, that a lot of the other races are seeing more and more, such as Chaos and Grey Knights. If striking scorpions and rangers could be the same squad differentiated by an upgrade (i.e. vanguard veterans or khorne marines) then it would add upgrade variability to that squad, but just making a new squad of units to fit into a role that's already filled just seems excessive and redundant.

Also, I'm certain that either a tanky melee or infiltrated dedicated melee squad would put Banshees out of the job; that's why I would rather the ranger squad itself get upgraded to be a viable soft melee counter to dedicated range units (i.e powerweapon damage and 40% melee damage reduction) instead of having a whole new squad that would either encroach on the banshee's role, or the seer council's role.

Nothing will ever put Banshees our of their job.

There is just no equal if you want something killed on retreat.

Orkfaeller wrote:Nothing will ever put Banshees our of their job.

There is just no equal if you want something killed on retreat.

You have to get them into retreat first though, if Scorpions are better at everything else except chasing retreating enemies, I bet that Scorpions would still be preferable, since retreat chasing is a gimmick compared to general reliability and performance.

xerrol-nanoha wrote:You have to get them into retreat first though, if Scorpions are better at everything else except chasing retreating enemies, I bet that Scorpions would still be preferable, since retreat chasing is a gimmick compared to general reliability and performance.

Eldar's all about gimmicks, tricks, punishing retreats, etc. If they didn't have fancy abilities and retreat punishing potentials and stuff, they'd suck.

I bet that Scorpions would still be preferable, since retreat chasing is a gimmick compared to general reliability and performance.

You make an excellent point, however this is flawed because Banshees are not just gimmicky. I would place the blame on Orkfaeller though (sorry), because his post implied that retreat killing is shees' main strength.

The truth of the matter is that they are the ultimate melee unit in T1, and possibly all the way short of Nobz and terminators in T3, considering:

Higher than average speed (5.5)
70 melee skill (highest in T1)
5/5 models (high unit count= more chances to proc special attacks with your superior melee skill)
Fantastic special attack AOE and stats (power melee, capable of knocking back lots of models)
Note: Special attack no longer hinders retreat chasing in Elite and therefore all this melee skill stuff is a PLUS and not double-edged (In retail having high melee skill made you worse at retreat chasing but better in fights).
26.92 power_melee dps per model: not the highest dps in T1 for a melee squad (I believe stormz are higher), but with power melee and paired with an amazing special attack you will get a lot of free damage on your targets.
Fleet of Foot. Nuff said.
Warshout which gives them amazing utility (offensive, defensive and able to cover its own retreat)
Exarch gives them + speed, an extra weapon on the exarch which in itself is insane, and an extra effect on FOF which makes them take reduced ranged damage.
Levelling gives superior bonuses to damage for melee squads than it does for ranged squads. Having the naturally highest base dps on a squad=> levels gives static % bonuses but gives bigger raw dps increases i.e. banshees benefit more from their levels than their counterparts do.
They (obviously) have melee resistance aura, meaning 40% less melee damage received, but they also benefit from the ranged damage resistance from being engaged in melee, meaning that once they are in melee, they are supremely difficult to take down (making options with disengage e.g. shotgun blast extremely useful against banshees).

Basically, banshees have 2 weaknesses. They are vulnerable before an aspect purchase and they are vulnerable to ranged damage. However, due to their superior move speed and Fleet of Foot they have a natural way to reduce incoming ranged damage by closing the distance quickly. Otherwise they are the ultimate melee unit, and will beat down any other standard melee unit with ease (heretics being the primary exception but tics are by design melee counters, so that's working as intended).

I'm sure Tex will be able to testify to the number of times I've bullshitted him by having fully upgraded shees clashing with fully upgraded sluggas+ stormz with nob. Shees will come out on top 9 times out of 10, and that's all because of their high unit count, high melee skill, and amazing special attack. You attack the sluggas with the shees, and suddenly all manner of orks will be thrown around by the specials. And even if they don't win, they always have warshout and retreat. And the same results will happen so long as the banshees are given free rein: KCSM+ Raptors lose to Shees+ Exarch often enough (if you've got Warlock MWB you can attempt to snipe off an entire squad before retreating your shees, especially with swift movement). That said most of these descriptions are of situations where the Eldar player "gets lucky", but the point is that when the Eldar player "gets unlucky" he can just warshout and retreat for minimal concrete loss.

So I hope I've shown a few reasons why I don't think that it would be easy to make a melee unit for Eldar which would outshine Banshees for general reliability and performance.