Dawn of War Codex

After watching the finals. I just got so many things I would like to say about this mod and community. Not that I hate this mod and forums but there are some issues I wish to talk about.

1v1 players > 3v3 players skill wise???
- Generally speaking yes but not always true. In our community, the best players are 1v1 players. They competitively play 1v1 and not 3v3. When they play 3v3, they play it with improvisation and just better skills over all passed over from 1v1. 1v1 requires more micro and skills overall so it is understandable why those who play 1v1 are superior to those starting out in 3v3 even when playing at 3v3. In conclusion, best 1v1 players won over 3v3 players overall because they were just better at every aspect of the game. This is why 1v1 > 3v3 is mostly a true statement.

But is it true against an organized team who played together for thousands of hours ONLY on 3v3 who optimized all their skills and strategies only for 3v3?
I believe Korean team showed that although it is hard to get to that extreme mastery of 3v3 if you can get to that level as a team, 3v3 players can outmatch 1v1 players who rely on improvisation from their normal 1v1 game skills and a make shift team.

About Korean Team
- Korean team did very good again. There was clan wars back in 2015 winter and they never lost a single match back then and it holds same for community cup this time.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2214
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZoIXg4 ... RSERQ_MhGX

So why did no one won a single game against them despite them not regularly playing elite mod?
1. Under prepared Elite Teams vs Underestimated and well prepared Korean Team
- Korean teams were very well prepared for both back in 2015 and now in Community Cup. They regularly play games together and only play 3v3 on retail and practiced days before the event both back in 2015 and now in community cup. Elite teams did not practice enough and they were mostly the gathering of various 1v1 focused players who were hastily crafted into a team and relied solely on what they used to do, improvisation and their usual skills. This was enough in most team games against unorganized gathering of mid to high level players but not against a completely well organized masters of 3v3.
- Since about 99% of the time you can win against 3v3 players if you gather up enough good 1v1 players into a team, Elite Teams underestimated Korean team which belongs to 1% of the team gamer who has complete mastery of 3v3 as a team. It seems those who never play 1v1 and only play 3v3 can beat best gathering of 1v1 players if their skills are honed to the extreme.

2. Making most of the retail style
- They used most unchanged factions in team game play style from retail which are SM, Chaos, Orks. So despite playing on elite, they did not need to change their play style completely unlike in 1v1. This way they made safe transition from retail to elite in terms of skill.
- In addition, since they did not play regularly in elite, their strategies were not completely exposed.

3. Better Team Play
- Combo wise similarly skilled but in terms of focus fire and troop positioning, Korean Team was way better. Elite Teams had tendencies to over stay the welcome and Korean team always 2 v 1 a single guy while the other guy was coming out of the base and did another 2 v 1 again while the other guy was coming out of the base. When they were in position for getting 2 v 1ed they retreated and only went out when they had 2 full team together. They sacrificed some gens and points but they overcame them by constantly driving back the enemy team which overextended.

4. Almost same build was used by Korean Team and no counters were prepared
- 2 Heavy Infantry Factions + 1 Light Armor Faction combination. The one they used is 2SM or SM/CSM + Ork Kommando Nob.
4.1 2015 Clan Wars
- Use Apo, PC combination of SM/CSM and do a line battle and just do equal fights, equal trade, and gather up units slowly and do not make rash push ins. Staying power and slow push by Apo, PC is unmatched and the line battle goes slightly in favor of Korean Team and Heavy Armor factions snowball as it slowly goes towards T3. No usage of WhirlWind was spotted.
- Ork also do an equal battle but skip T2 mostly and fast tech into Battle Wagon and break lines and win the game by usage of battle wagon + T3 SM + Chaos ranged blob.

4.2 2018 Community Cup
- Use 2SM combination do a line battle and just do equal fights, equal trade, and gather up units slowly and do not make rash push ins. SM blob snowballs as it slowly goes towards T3. They abused WhirlWind to the maximum this time around.
- Ork also do an equal battle but skip T2 mostly and fast tech into Battle Wagon and break lines and win the game by usage of battle wagon + T3 SM ranged blob.
- In case of wide maps, add in KN + 2 kommando infiltration team tactic. close in use burna bomb and love da dakaa and throw in some comboes in when possible.

- Almost exactly same builds and composition and strategy but no one seemed to have bothered to study them up. We even had Clan Wars footage in bBbos channel. You cannot win against these guys with the attitude of "I main IG in 1v1, I main Eldar in 1v1, I main SM in 1v1 lets gather into a team of IG/Eldar/SM and win".

Korean Community and its tendencies
1. Over dominance of team game players
- 1v1 players did not transfer over at all to Elite from 2013. Since balance was static and ladder was broken in retail with no alternative known, 1v1 players just ditched dow2 forever and did not return. So those who remained until now is all but team players and only 3v3. You can pretty much say
Korean Player = 3v3 ONLY Player both in elite and retail if you ever see them.

2. Preferring Retail > Elite
- Some Korean players are hostile towards elite. There are two known active sources. Critical32 and kardakkarnak. If you see someone shitposting about Elite and is Korean, most likely their opinions are based on those two because they are most vocal.

2.1 karnakkardak
- Back in IG strong days in 2014, 2015, he played Inq -> Leman Spam. He was also well known for abusing early las-turret rush. His complaints are summarized by this post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2864.
- According to him IG is overnerfed despite being able to be countered very well. But as we all know, this is 3v3 logic. The nerf was due to 1v1 issues.

2.2 Critical32
- Ork player. Rarely plays 1v1 and most of the time play team games. His arguments are summarized in this post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3024.
- He is also notoriously known for below arguments.
- Orks must spend power to compete against HI factions when they can just freely get suppression team and other power units and force Orks to spend power to adapt which they cannot compete. In the end, Orks need to use more power to overcome SM, Chaos.
- Orks were unnecessarily nerfed to oblivion compared to retail.
- You can spam units in elite to win.
- Again, team game logic and cannot be accepted.

- He is known for provoking elite mod 1v1 players and make them play retail 1v1. He beats them with orks in retail 1v1 and claims that retail is superior to elite and refuse to play high level players in elite 1v1 to prove his point. His disposition is known as why do I have to play Elite 1v1 to prove my point when the balance is shit there. It is funny that despite his shitposts about elite balance since 2015 winter and claiming to quit playing that stupid mod, he continues to appear from time to time in elite mod youtube casts for 1v1 which means he hasn't quit.

3. Korean retail 1v1 players
- Abused Orks, Eldar in 1v1 as everyone did. Thus, most of the top korean rankers were Orks and Eldar. Same with everyone else who played 1v1 back then which partly explains some left over mid level Korean 1v1 players' hostile response to Elite.

4. Conclusion
- All of their balance claims come from 3v3 view and they never dominated 1v1 scene.
- If Koreans want to have a say on balance of elite, they need to speak in 1v1 terms not 3v3. Actually beat some good players with OP builds they claim to exist in 1v1 not 3v3 and make a post then they can have a point.

I entirely agree with this overall synopsis.

I hope this tournament illustrates that set strategies and familiarisation with maps and the 'flow' of team-play can easily trump conventional 'skill' in terms of micro, positioning and general unit awareness.

The 3 best 1v1 players shoved into a team doesn't make them anywhere near the best 3v3 team.

Rename to korean team review. kappa

Torpid wrote:I entirely agree with this overall synopsis.

I hope this tournament illustrates that set strategies and familiarisation with maps and the 'flow' of team-play can easily trump conventional 'skill' in terms of micro, positioning and general unit awareness.

The 3 best 1v1 players shoved into a team doesn't make them anywhere near the best 3v3 team.

I'll +1 to that. While I don't know about EVERY balance suggestion they've made it can't really be denied that they know their stuff.

one reason is that those vanila player (the korean team) play retail regularly, even at this point when game is dead (retail also has more lobbies, easier to find game in comparison to elite) I have played vs Gom and Cardinal in 3v3s they aint unbeatable even by a mid player like me (critical32 is solid though)

But Imagine a team that has Noisy,Tex,Mathis in their prime while they play 10-20 hrs a week regularly and these games would have been turned completely upside down

I dont blame our own team elite though; freeman and ace are rusty and barely even play the game. adial also and he plays 1v1s half the time when he does

plus i dont think we took this tourney seriously, due to the amount of money as its prize which seemed it is too good to be true ...
on the other hand it is kina due to the "Poor Presentation" by "Trojan" I think

otherwise a tourney with this much money should have boost the game bringing many gamers back.
would be much better if it was Impregnable who was holding the tourney which would have made a huge difference, cuz he is a great representer of various tournaments

This should be a wake-up call to how stale the 3v3 scene for Elite has become.
Treated as the game mode for noobs and trash, the only regular players that stick around end up being the noobs and the trash.
The top players which do play 3v3 play together in stacked teams which easily crushes the pubbies or, tired of the lack of challenge retreat to their private lobbies with the same small group of friends.
There are no active clans, no team rivalry and all competitive spirit is directed solely to the 1v1 ladder.
If it weren't for the big money, half the participants wouldn't even have stepped into a 3v3 lobby, some wouldn't even have started up the game.
The worst thing is the winners being outsiders won't even stick around to keep up the rivalry and the community can pretend that the tournament and its results never existed at all.

Whats your point Olev?

We didn't even practice, personally I was contacted 4 days ago and didn't even want to join the tourney, just did it cos freeman and adila didn't have anyone else to ask to, we didn't play a single game together before the tourney day.

Not just that, nobody has taken this game seriously for the past 5 years, it's dead,buggy and frustrating to play, the balance is all over the place and everyone is doing what the fuck they want, no one of the top players has even been playing much lately, we used to play everyday for hours 6 years ago, now I maybe played 3 games in the last year and I can see from my friend list that people barely play a few hours per week, not per day, PER WEEK, that's why you can't really deduce the state of balance from these games, at least from a really "top skill" point of view, everyone, me included, with the exception of the korean team played like trash, something that would've been unseen years ago.

I play only 3v3...

oLev wrote:

"""Elite""" players BTFO.

That gif was funny. But Ace more or less summed it up pretty well.

But Ace also pretty much confirmed what olev was saying at the same time.

I hereby call it Tournament of Realization and Depression.

Realization that we all eventually grow old and die. After reading all these posts I can't help but picture myself dying alone in bed.

Thanks oLev. :/ xd

<edited monoluge out>

Ace of Swords wrote:We didn't even practice, personally I was contacted 4 days ago and didn't even want to join the tourney, just did it cos freeman and adila didn't have anyone else to ask to, we didn't play a single game together before the tourney day.

Not just that, nobody has taken this game seriously for the past 5 years, it's dead,buggy and frustrating to play, the balance is all over the place and everyone is doing what the fuck they want, no one of the top players has even been playing much lately, we used to play everyday for hours 6 years ago, now I maybe played 3 games in the last year and I can see from my friend list that people barely play a few hours per week, not per day, PER WEEK, that's why you can't really deduce the state of balance from these games, at least from a really "top skill" point of view, everyone, me included, with the exception of the korean team played like trash, something that would've been unseen years ago.

That's not really true though.

Bruce, Mathis and Toil practised nearly every day as did many of the other teams that weren't you, freeman and Adila.

The point is we all know the IC team would destroy the korean boys in 1v1. But that's precisely the point. That's irrelevant. That's not how 3v3 works.

Also you should really cut the depression towards dow2. I remember two years ago you saying the game was totally dead and hopeless. It's very vibrant. Never have seen so many new players joining and actually progressing in skill and getting involved in the community. And we just had a huge tournament with a massive prize pool and will have another in the league.

Regular patches are back in place. Dow2 is very much alive.

Torpid wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:We didn't even practice, personally I was contacted 4 days ago and didn't even want to join the tourney, just did it cos freeman and adila didn't have anyone else to ask to, we didn't play a single game together before the tourney day.

Not just that, nobody has taken this game seriously for the past 5 years, it's dead,buggy and frustrating to play, the balance is all over the place and everyone is doing what the fuck they want, no one of the top players has even been playing much lately, we used to play everyday for hours 6 years ago, now I maybe played 3 games in the last year and I can see from my friend list that people barely play a few hours per week, not per day, PER WEEK, that's why you can't really deduce the state of balance from these games, at least from a really "top skill" point of view, everyone, me included, with the exception of the korean team played like trash, something that would've been unseen years ago.

That's not really true though.

Bruce, Mathis and Toil practised nearly every day as did many of the other teams that weren't you, freeman and Adila.

The point is we all know the IC team would destroy the korean boys in 1v1. But that's precisely the point. That's irrelevant. That's not how 3v3 works.

Also you should really cut the depression towards dow2. I remember two years ago you saying the game was totally dead and hopeless. It's very vibrant. Never have seen so many new players joining and actually progressing in skill and getting involved in the community. And we just had a huge tournament with a massive prize pool and will have another in the league.

Regular patches are back in place. Dow2 is very much alive.

There's literally always the same 30 people playing lol........

To be fair I remember people saying it will be stone dead after coh2 release.

I mean, I'm back, older, and smellier than ever. How dead can this game be?

I'm basically part of the furniture. If furniture could get up and leave, disappear for a couple of years, then show up unexpectedly again for no reason.

#partofthefurniture
#noobcodex

On a more serious note, I think in all likeliness both sides are exaggerating a bit. There's definitely more we could do to make the community more vibrant and retain players. I mean, for reference there are more people playing DOW2 Retri than DOW3. I know that's not saying that much, but "dead game" is an exaggeration.

Best thing we can do is make the community more welcoming and help retention, which is part of the reason I'm in slap down mode on those people who would slap down other members of this community.

Bitches gonna get slapped. You know who you are.

I hate to say it but if you want more people to come back and stay. New things have to be introduced. Last Stand might be a good kick starter. Like adding one new war-gear to each hero that offer more diversity and a unique and fun play style.

Heck, It is possible to make a map that is 4v4. Scenarios were talked about, while i dont think anyone wants to spend the time making a make that has voice lines and cut scenes, you could make something that just allows the players a different way or approach in having fun in the game.


An example could be 2 IG players defending a point (its dependable with a surplus of turrets and destructible gates the orks have to get through etc) vs 3 orks players, whilst 2 SM players run asap to save the IG players from being over run, but one ork player is there to delay their arrival. To make it more intense make it so the defenders have limited resources such as They cannot purchase squads but rather they are passively deployed (like its hard to reinforcements to come) and the only way to get hard hitters is by spending the resources you do get wisely.


Lately, only focusing on balance, while necessary, cannot be the only focus. While i will be targeted for saying this i think we might want to considering adding some new unit or new heroes to the mix. Maybe like a Warrior Alpha, or maybe even (i know but i am making one) a Pathfinder (Ranger hero pretty much although we would need to rename the ranger's upgrade). We could make a Sly Marbo type Hero for IG (although he would have to have plot armor jk).

Again idk but people tend to leave when a game gets stale and repetitive. Some new things with discussion and what not could be a good idea.


I watch a little bit of the games. I will have to admit though, coordination, cooperation and communication wins these things. If the Korean team really does play together frequently than they have alot of practice with the three "C"s. And its hard to compete with a team that has years of teamwork put into a game.

This game is 7 years old and elite would not have lived without the balance it has now through this mod, aswell as the big amounts of new content.

And there is still place for more (theoretical), even if it is only a wargear or an extra upgrade. Schemes are also important I´d reckon, exspecially those of the Horus Heresy.

It does not need to be stuff in every patch, but here and there small additions (like an jumppack for apo hint hint )))) or one more upgrade with visual changes will keep it alive.

Good thing is, that in Warhammer many units derive from an base patter....

NEWS AT 11: WELL PREPARED TEAM BEAT BETTER INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS

Other than the echo chamber here of "3v3 is for noobs," this really shouldn't surprise anyone

3v3 might be a good place for people to start playing the game but I've never thought 3v3 is for noobs. And some of the most epic games I've ever had in DOW2 was in 3v3. Psht.

It's not that 3v3 is for noobs, but it's easier to micro since you mostly blob your whole army. It's a much more forgiving game, there are some mistakes that would've cost you the game in 1v1 but can be recovered from in 3v3.

Basically any race can beat any race, and you can always capitalize on the cheese units which are no-brainers for this format, whereas in 1v1 it would have been a tough decision to purchase them.

And ofc I'm with broodwich. Others analysis are at best irrelevant.

I don't know how much truth there is to the statement that 3v3 is perceived as the mode for noobs. I don't like the strategies of 3v3 much and I don't like how people can get away with stupid shit without getting punished hard. As such I've always considered it a bad mode to practice, especially if you aim to 1v1.

Never have I considered it a 'Noob' mode though. There's definitely expertise required to plan out and execute 3v3 strategy and I can respect that. TBH I think the sentiment of noob 3v3 originates more from many 3v3 players joking about themselves as noobs than from others dubbing it so. I can't speak for other players but I'm mainly indifferent to the concept.

The practice environment is also feast or famine; it's either a noob stomp by a more experienced team or just a snowball much of the time, as others have aptly pointed out, hardly an environment for competitive growth.

If anything I'd be intrigued to see what some well thought out and rehearsed strategies of top players could really accomplish in such future events. Maybe next time.

3v3s are certainly EASIER to play. Also the Strategic value of 1v1>3v3 That is why Most of the RTS Worlcups are 1v1 (SC1,SC2,WC3,C&C,RA,AOE,COH)
But 3v3s are not particularly for noobs. there are lots of high lvl 3v3s.
Its a shame that this kind of money was pured into 3v3 instead of 1v1 or at least 2v2

3v3 has a lot of strategic depth to it if it was more actively played seriously, you could see plenty of different tactics etc. Also knowing when to double offensively or defensively isn't something you learn in 1s.

1v1 strategic in a different way than 3v3 is ehat I mean here.

Mechanically 3s are easier than 1v1s.

actually, i dont& play elite now.
Not only IG nerfed in 3v3, also my micro-control ability is being devolved.
and I know crying for nerf-things myself. for this time, I srry for that.
BUT, I will watching the utube. bye.

tips: there is one player kor-1v1 main; her name is lacia