Dawn of War Codex

Factors that you cannot change
1. A lot of new to mid level players prefer 3v3 and SM, Chaos are very popular.
- Thus most of the players who play 3v3 use SM, Chaos.
- Laney maps are better for SM, Chaos.
- Since the majority of the players plays SM, Chaos for 3v3, the most popular 3v3 maps get fixated as laney maps.
- Less players play non SM, Chaos factions since they are harder to learn and not good at laney maps which is the most popular. This makes those factions even less popular. Negative cycle turns and turns and they get even less players then before.
- Small player base means those non SM, Chaos factions cannot turn public opinion in favor of less laney 3v3 maps.

2. They are easier to use in team games
- Less units to control so less likely to make mistakes
- Almost no need for map control which means all the units can gather around and fight as a ball which is playing to their strength
- More durable which means it allows rooms for more mistakes and less wipes. This plus the fact that there are 3 players together means there is more chance to recover even if one player screws up a bit
- Most of the time can get into T3 which is their strongest point in game
- Can fight shoulder to shoulder as a team and prevent flanks easier
- Anyone can play them in 3v3 to a certain effectiveness while other factions require dedication to be good at

Factors that can be changed but shouldn't because of 1v1 balance reasons
1. Terminator Size Change
- Terminators are best ranged infantry in the entire game. They were hard to counter by ranged infantry means only before the change but now it is almost impossible to counter them using ranged infantry at all.
- This is why Terminator size change has such a huge impact on its durability and survival . AV weapons are not the only ones that have accuracy reduced.
Below are the most common type of weapon families used against SHI that Terminator has.
autocannon_tank_pvp - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.9 - 10% increased Miss Chance
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weaponfami ... n_tank_pvp

inferno_pvp - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.8 - 20% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... ferno_pvp4

melta - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.9 - 10% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... ?fam=melta

plasma_pvp vs Large 1, Medium 0.8 - 20% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... plasma_pvp

Since Termies variants are very high health low squad model type of unit, any weapon has to fire a ton of rounds in order to bring down Termies which makes sure there is more chance for that miss chance RNG to kick in. Now that there is a chance to miss fire against such a huge hp pool unit, Terminators are far more tougher to bring down using ranged fire of any type and it is even tougher if buffs and debuffs factors from other units are involved in. This means melee options against Termies are indirectly buffed for they won't miss by any chance. This change had negative impact in Team Games where Terminators are far easier to bring out and protected by more units in a tight space which hugely negates melee factors + vehicles and forces ranged counter.
- These factors combined with WhirlWind which is the biggest problem in team games make a good 2SM based teams very overpowered as long as they play it safe in the early stages.
- In later stages, SM team with 1 or 2 Termies which counters all ranged infantry + Whirlwind which counters all non vehicle infantry including melee + some anti melee measures, some anti vehicle measures is almost impossible to win against.

Factors you can change for sure
1. Whirlwind
- I don't know how this unit is used in 1v1 but for 3v3 it is a unit that requires the nerf immediately.

1.1 Was it added to cover some SM weakness in 1v1?
- All new units in Elite has a purpose of making retail faction weakness lesser and allowing for more variable builds for 1v1.
Orks
Painboy - Build order variation
Flash Gitz - Build order variation

Nidz
Neurothrope - T3 Elite melee counter

IG
Artillery Spotter - Covering up T1 weakness to set up teams
Kasrkin - T3 Elite Infantry, Elite Melee counter with Plasma Guns

Chaos
Raptors - Covering up no jump troops in T1 weakness, Further T3 AV option with meltas
Land Raider Phobos - Strengthening up T3 AV

Eldar
Fire Dragons - Mobile T2 AV option
Dark Reapers - Ranged counter option against Heavy Infantry and Super Heavy Infantry

SM
Sternguard - Better AI option on their tacs than retail
Vanguard - T3 Elite Melee which SM lacked

- I don't get why was WhirlWind added at all. SM has no problem of countering melee and ranged blobs in 1v1.

1.2 Comparison to Manticore
- In team games it is a no brainer choice and obnoxious. It can shut down entire armies with no need for good control and is so freaking hard to kill if well managed.

Health
- It has better health. You can even counter manticores with power melee since its health pool is so small.
(275 vs 400)

Speed/Turning Speed
- Way faster speed. This is even more important than health difference since it allows for quick escape.
(4.5 vs 6) / (125 vs 150)

Cost
- Far less on power cost(-25) and not so expensive on req(+60) as well

Self Defend Chance
- Has hunter killer missile that has huge range and decent damage
- If you use ground attack, you can micro it to counter anti vehicle infantry trying to chase it for at least once
- Manticore has zero chance of survival from those two types of attacks

- Has huge range and wide disruption and excellent fire time. Considering the time that is required for units to get up from the knockback, it can be said that the next round of barrage comes only 1 or 2 sec after the complete recovery from knockback.
- No friendly fires.
- Manticore can be dodged, not so huge on disruption and more importantly cannot constantly disrupt and firendly fires.

Conclusion
- In conclusion, it is a 1. long range, 2.Wide and Constant disruption, 3.with no friendly fire that 4.can counter both melee and ranged blobs and 5. with a good speed and chance of micro to save itself 6. has a chance to damage vehicles on very long range 7. cost less than manticore 8. It is a vehicle
- Literally if you have one WW, you cannot lose to an enemy infantry group both in range and with help of some melee counters to fill in the gap, can easily counter melee as well.
- It seriously need to be more vulnerable by making it way slower or have less health like manticore. Perhaps we can make it fire far less frequently. Anyhow, it need some serious nerf.

I must have missed the games where the SM blob built whirlwinds but I'm trying to catch up. Suffice it to say that the tournament's results are being discussed pretty vigorously. Whirlwinds in general are due for a rework, but to what is the question. There is a concern of SM dominance in 3v3s so we're seeing how we can adjust that without impacting 1v1s much.

I was thinking about that as well. The only solution i could think of is limiting how many of a certain unit a team can field. But that only really effect faction wars which are meant to be just a fun immersive thing anyway. So that wouldn't work.

We could change the power income gained from power points and their nodes in only for team games and not mess with 1v1 income because there is a way to do that.

I am referring to the increase in that caeltos implemented awhile back to help make power bash not be as punishing and makes map control more rewarding.

Although that doesn't fix the dominance HI faction have in team games.

Please stop making Terminators easier to deal with. They already have a ton of disadvantages in a late 3v3 game. They can't retreat, they take ungodly amounts of bonus damage from plasma, inferno, melta, etc. Also, Terminators are not what makes SM strong in team games. If so, why it doesn't work on Chaos? Something I pay at least 650 / 100 / 350 must pay off. Terminators should be a unit that is very hard to deal with, and I don't like keep nerfing them.

You are right about Whirlwind. SM already has a very decent disruption unit called P-Devs. Whirlwind can shut down ENTIRE armies. It just doesn't let your man to get up and shoot. To be honest this is too much. I would like to see Whirlwind moved to T3, doing less disruption but doing more damage, just like DoW1 Whirlwind. It is just too strong in team games, specially against IG, Tyranids and Orks.

Do you know what makes SM sooooo hard to deal with in team games?

- Plasma Devestators : It is literally impossible to cap under their fire since they can knockback anything that is able to cap. Maybe changing ability knockback with weapon knockback might be a solution, but that is a very radical change that even I won't like.

- Land Raider Redeemer : It is a walking castle, a castle that is too hard to kill. It provides everything that SM needs. But, there is something really disturbs me for a long time. Phobos was meant to give Chaos move T3 av that they need, so we can say that it was meant for fighting right? But, Redeemer was meant to sit back and provide ungodly support to your armies. Why Redeemer has 2500 hp while Phobos has 2000? I know it is a Chaos variant but still, that doesn't mean Phobos has to be a glasscannon. I would say decrease Redeemer hp to 2000 from 2500 and increase Phobos hp from to 2500 from 2000.

These two factors are what makes SM sooo hard to deal with in a team game. Other factors are fine imo.

Whirlwind is not a no brainer, but an good option.
Besides, it s not about countering melee blobs, but ranged ones with tons of plasma and what not stacked atop.

Thats the problem; tie up SM with some melee units and watch them melt to it.

P-devs do mor dmg, but fire slower = less disruption.

And Eldar MU is really though in the beginning.

Phobos should not get 2500hp unless it comes with a big price increase. It has lots of damage on those long range lascannons, high damage bolter and a dirge caster.

WW does counter melee to an extent. When your melee tries to fight SM melee, WW will knock your shit over and lets SM melee/pew your melee (since no friendly fire). It is a better ranged blob counter but works against melee too to a degree.

Nurland wrote:Phobos should not get 2500hp unless it comes with a big price increase. It has lots of damage on those long range lascannons, high damage bolter and a dirge caster.

WW does counter melee to an extent. When your melee tries to fight SM melee, WW will knock your shit over and lets SM melee/pew your melee (since no friendly fire). It is a better ranged blob counter but works against melee too to a degree.

Would it be more fun to have the WW do friendly fire in the form of knockback?

Weapon knockback for Plasma Cannons makes sense, especially as the Blastmaster has it. Together with that maybe a reduction to the knockback radius of Whirlwinds.

If you want to nerf WW, I would give them a slight movement speed nerf, its pretty hard to catch them atm.
Also the Tac-heavy Meta right now is hard to deal with if there are multiple sm Players esp, all what should be done here is increase the drop pod tacdrop
to 400 req instead if the 350 we have now, you already get a reinforcement point and a cheaper tacsquad which is instantly on the field wherever you want.

Adila wrote:If you want to nerf WW, I would give them a slight movement speed nerf, its pretty hard to catch them atm.
Also the Tac-heavy Meta right now is hard to deal with if there are multiple sm Players esp, all what should be done here is increase the drop pod tacdrop
to 400 req instead if the 350 we have now, you already get a reinforcement point and a cheaper tacsquad which is instantly on the field wherever you want.

i've been asking for a cost increase on the fucking pod all the time, seriously its fucking retarded how i can lose a key unit and just drop tacs and recover just fine
just like the first game we played in the 3v3 tourney against eachother, you naded my asm and i recovered with a drop pod even though it was a fucking apo mirror

I wouldn't conclude much from 1 3v3v tourney. More likely than not, teamplay was the decisive factor in said games.
Disclosure: I haven't seen the 3v3 tourney yet.

egewithin wrote:I would say decrease Redeemer hp to 2000 from 2500 and increase Phobos hp from to 2500 from 2000.

This is such a bad idea for a multitude of reasons. There is a reason their HP pools are like that.

lol redeemer does not have half the dmg capabilities of phobos!

PianoMan wrote:
i've been asking for a cost increase on the fucking pod all the time, seriously its fucking retarded how i can lose a key unit and just drop tacs and recover just fine
just like the first game we played in the 3v3 tourney against eachother, you naded my asm and i recovered with a drop pod even though it was a fucking apo mirror

We get it there's no need to keep beating a dead horse

You've made this point in many places on many threads, we even have an active drop pod thread. Keep that discussion there.

To be fair, no other faction has a unit that can do ALL OF BELOW THINGS in T2.
1. long range
2.Wide and Constant disruption
3.with no friendly fire that
4.can counter both melee and ranged blobs and
5. with a good speed and chance of micro to save itself
6. has a chance to damage vehicles on very long range
7. cost less than manticore
8. It is a vehicle

Especially this attribute is completely balance breaking. Not even a T3 unit can do this.
- Wide and Constant disruption(knockback)

Making WW fire less amount of rockets it is the way to go imo. It can work similar to DoW1 variant - 1 rocket with medium damage and good disruption.

Also we can rework it's fire mechanics by making it similar to manticore/artillery spotters squad - by making it's fire as an ability and adding a mark in the place where rocket will land. It will require more attention from players to use it efficiently, and give sm opponent time to react, and potentially dodge WW's volley.

ww is overperforming in 3v3 and UP in 1v1.
His volley of six rockets, which are shoot not so fast and accurate, in 1v1 can be easily dodged, or WW can be flanked and killed .
In 3v3 it's much more complicated to kill a WW

I think a good compass when changes are discussed is immersion and consistency. One way to tone down a bit the WW is to add friendly fire knock back. It will just feel less silly, even without balance considerations. I can't think of any other knock back that doesn't to friendly fire.

Thibix Magnus wrote:I can't think of any other knock back that doesn't to friendly fire.

Shotgun blast?
Kinetic pulse?
Warp throw?
Gravity blade?
KNob Shotgun ability?
Mek Earthquake armor?
ASM Jump?
Etc?

Kinetic pulse does f kb.

Also the first wave of Megga Rumbla (Mek earthquake armor as you named it) if it hasn't been changed.

But yea actually most kb abilities do NOT affect allies, that's how it works in most cases. Exceptions are extreme abilities with big damage (Avatar's, Tank's...) that often (but not always, tankbusta's for instance) come in T3.

I was thinking about auto-attacks, not abilities (didn't specify).

Ok fair enough.

Just curious about your opinion, what if we change P-Dev ability knockback with weapon knockback, and give ability knockback to T3-less-firing-doing-massive-damage-WW insted?

Seems a bit weird, plasma is way stronger then rockets

WW definitely needs a re-work but I shall just say that giving SM a manticore is a very boring way to do such a re-work. Why do SM need a manticore?

Torpid wrote:WW definitely needs a re-work but I shall just say that giving SM a manticore is a very boring way to do such a re-work. Why do SM need a manticore?

Also a good point, WW should be different than Manticore. And it still would be different than Manticore. WW is all about wide area knockback, and should stay that way. Current WW just does too much knockback, and should be nerfed that way. Manticore is about killing stuff, nothing like WW.

egewithin wrote:

Torpid wrote:WW definitely needs a re-work but I shall just say that giving SM a manticore is a very boring way to do such a re-work. Why do SM need a manticore?

Also a good point, WW should be different than Manticore. And it still would be different than Manticore. WW is all about wide area knockback, and should stay that way. Current WW just does too much knockback, and should be nerfed that way. Manticore is about killing stuff, nothing like WW.

retargeting of WW sooooooo slooooooooow his rocket launcher turns like ages.

After I played against it;

Nerf the knockback on WW!

well if people find it meh in 1v1, I'm not for nerfing the WW per se, any nerf to its KB should be compensated so it's more useful in 1v1, maybe just more damage, or less spread out impact.

Triple SM team with 2 of them bringing 2 WW´s is cancer, exspecially on maps like Angelgate.

I don't even think 1v1 balance is relevant to discussing the WW. Nobody gets it in 1v1 so who cares how it functions there. It is bought frequently in 3v3 where it really overperforms. It must be nerfed. Question is how.