Chaos turrets/setup teams vs SM turrets/setup teams

[Sub_Zero]

All the data I copy from http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite

Let's start with Devastators vs Havocs

Default devastators slightly better than Havocs in terms of damage (216 dps vs 204 dps) but Havocs outperfom them because of instant supression. However Devastators can upgrade Vengeance rounds (but I don't understand how they work against infantry).
In T2 Havocs become even better. They can upgrade two different weapons. Devastators can only get a lascannon. Let's compare DPS of equal upgrades (Tzeentch mark and Lascannon)
Havocs do 40 dps with instantaneous shot and Devastators do 33 dps and have a wind up. Is it intended? I mean in T1 Devastators have more damage but can't supress targets instantly. And they should have more damage with a lascannon but not be able to snare a target immediatly.
Devastators < Havocs.
I understand that devastators can get better support (librarian's abilities) but that is extra resources.

And now let's talk about turrets.

Default Techmarine's turret hugely outperforms default Plague Champion's turret in terms of damage (310 dps vs 228 dps) but Plague Champion's turret has better firing arc. I don't know how you feel but I feel that Plague Champion's turret supresses really slowly. What about to give this turret damage over time to compensate these weaknesses?
And T2 upgrades for these turrets. Now we have reverse situation.
Missile launcher does 20 dps and has 44 range vs lascannon turret does 38 dps and has 67 (!) range. Kind of unfair.
Default Techmarine's turret >> default Plague Champion's turret
Missile turret << lascannon turret
What about balancing it?

Or maybe the difference lays in AV-capabilities of these two races? Everyone knows that all T1 units but scouts have av-abilities in t2 while chaos t1 roster contains only one unit being able to do av in T2? And 2 SM heroes have great anti-vehicle tools.

[Caeltos]

Space Marine AV-Turret

Missile Launcher Turret cost decreased from 80/40 to 75/0
Missile Launcher Turret build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Missile Launcher Turret range increased from 44 to 50
Missile Launcher Turret reload duration decreased from 6 to 4

[Sub_Zero]

Missile Launcher Turret cost decreased from 80/40 to 75/0
Missile Launcher Turret build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds

I believe same changes apply to lasturret

So what about havocs being superior?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Missile Launcher Turret cost decreased from 80/40 to 75/0
Missile Launcher Turret build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds

I believe same changes apply to lasturret

So what about havocs being superior?

Because SM have much more ways to increase the damage (though buffs or debuffs) of the Devastators, where Chaos barely have ways to buff the Havocs damage.

[Dark Riku]

Because SM have much more ways to increase the damage (though buffs or debuffs) of the Devastators, where Chaos barely have ways to buff the Havocs damage.

Only the fc can actively buff units... given that they are close enough.
By your logic Chaos has many ways too: blood lust, curse of Tzeench on targeted squad, etc. But that's not where to utility comes from. The utility comes from the heretics worshiping starting from begining to the end of the game, getting into position faster, ambushing or being beefier while still having their own trait, something that every team gets bar the hb. The hb is the worst out of all suppression teams. I don't see how this can even be up for debate.

[Sub_Zero]

Havocs with Tzeentch mark really do 40 dps? Isn't it OP with instantaneous snare? Lootas and Brightlance do something about 40 dps too but with no snare.

Because SM have much more ways to increase the damage (though buffs or debuffs) of the Devastators, where Chaos barely have ways to buff the Havocs damage.

And tzeentch marines do such stupid damage because cannot be reinforced on the field, oh, yeah... I have heard it. I don't talk about synergies, I only talk about single unit performance.

Just tested. Havocs need 30 seconds to kill a SM dread. Devastators need 37 seconds to kill a SM dread.

[Torpid]

I don't talk about synergies, I only talk about single unit performance.

Then don't talk at all. It's ridiculous to call tzeentch marines OP just because they beat the comparable t2 anti HI/SHI unit from a similar race. You must look at things in the context of not just the single race that thing is found within, but in the context of all the other races, each game mode and the current meta.

[Torpid]

Because SM have much more ways to increase the damage (though buffs or debuffs) of the Devastators, where Chaos barely have ways to buff the Havocs damage.

Only the fc can actively buff units... given that they are close enough.
By your logic Chaos has many ways too: blood lust, curse of Tzeench on targeted squad, etc. But that's not where to utility comes from. The utility comes from the heretics worshiping starting from begining to the end of the game, getting into position faster, ambushing or being beefier while still having their own trait, something that every team gets bar the hb. The hb is the worst out of all suppression teams. I don't see how this can even be up for debate.

I hope you don't deem me to be to pedantic Riku however:

You're right in one sense, the HB is the worst of all the suppression teams in a straight up comparison, however the second sentence "I don't see how this can even be up for debate." is missing the point. Nobody here is debating whether the HB dev is or isn't the worst suppression team, instead they are debating whether or not the HB dev ought to be the worst suppression team. I shan't involve myself in such a debate, but that should be focus, because you're right, the HB dev most certainly is the worst suppression team against anything that isn't IG (because vengeance rounds pwn IG ass).

Oh and one more thing, I think using havocs as a follow-up to CoT is a bit desperate to prove a point is it not? SM clearly have greater buffs for all their units than chaos do, specifically devs.

Devs may be buffed via: Mark target, stims, battlecry, standard, veil of time, inspiration, FTE. Furthermore the performance of las-devs is buffed by the contribution of ASM and their melta bomb. It asks much more of the person that assumes the presence of plague marines alongside las-havocs than it does to the person who assumes the presence of a melta bomb alongside las-devs.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Because SM have much more ways to increase the damage (though buffs or debuffs) of the Devastators, where Chaos barely have ways to buff the Havocs damage.

Only the fc can actively buff units... given that they are close enough.
By your logic Chaos has many ways too: blood lust, curse of Tzeench on targeted squad, etc. But that's not where to utility comes from. The utility comes from the heretics worshiping starting from begining to the end of the game, getting into position faster, ambushing or being beefier while still having their own trait, something that every team gets bar the hb. The hb is the worst out of all suppression teams. I don't see how this can even be up for debate.

Sigh.

I love that "etc" for the Chaos buffs.

SM buffs
-Force Commander
- For the Emperor
- Battlecry
- Power Sword Battlecry
- Sacred Standard

-Techmarine
- Mark Target
- Venerable Dread on-kill inspiration

-Apotecary
- Combat Stimms

For all Commanders
- Dreadnought on-kill inspiration
- Terminators on-kill inspiration
- Librarian on-kill inspiration

Chaos buffs
Chaos Lord
- Bloodlust
- Khorne Shrine AOE

For all Commanders
- Chaos Terminators on-kill demoralize

All the buff that SM and Chaos have to directly increase the damage of the Devastators/Havocs. I ignore the defensive buffs (healing auras, Veil of Time/Chaos Sorcerer Rift...)

So, maybe the Lasscannon Havoc do more damage, but the SM player can easily reach the same damage or even a higher one.

Devastators have the Vengeance Round upgrade, which SHREDS inmune to suppression commanders, even with shields. Yeah, you have the drawback that you can't buy the suppression upgrade for them, but if you play the Force Commander or the Techmarine this IMHO it's not a big deal.

Havocs with Tzeentch mark really do 40 dps? Isn't it OP with instantaneous snare? Lootas and Brightlance do something about 40 dps too but with no snare.

And tzeentch marines do such stupid damage because cannot be reinforced on the field, oh, yeah... I have heard it. I don't talk about synergies, I only talk about single unit performance.

Just tested. Havocs need 30 seconds to kill a SM dread. Devastators need 37 seconds to kill a SM dread.

Yeah, MoT CSM can do a lot of damage... but it's the only thing that they can do. They have no special abilities to change a battle or special traits despite the melee resistance aura. You can't increase easily their damage though buffs or debuffs. Their Sargent is one of the worst.

Remove their high damage, and they are going to be useless.

[Batpimp]

All the data I copy from http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite

Let's start with Devastators vs Havocs

Default devastators slightly better than Havocs in terms of damage (216 dps vs 204 dps) but Havocs outperfom them because of instant supression. However Devastators can upgrade Vengeance rounds (but I don't understand how they work against infantry).
In T2 Havocs become even better. They can upgrade two different weapons. Devastators can only get a lascannon. Let's compare DPS of equal upgrades (Tzeentch mark and Lascannon)
Havocs do 40 dps with instantaneous shot and Devastators do 33 dps and have a wind up. Is it intended? I mean in T1 Devastators have more damage but can't supress targets instantly. And they should have more damage with a lascannon but not be able to snare a target immediatly.
Devastators < Havocs.
I understand that devastators can get better support (librarian's abilities) but that is extra resources.

And now let's talk about turrets.

Default Techmarine's turret hugely outperforms default Plague Champion's turret in terms of damage (310 dps vs 228 dps) but Plague Champion's turret has better firing arc. I don't know how you feel but I feel that Plague Champion's turret supresses really slowly. What about to give this turret damage over time to compensate these weaknesses?
And T2 upgrades for these turrets. Now we have reverse situation.
Missile launcher does 20 dps and has 44 range vs lascannon turret does 38 dps and has 67 (!) range. Kind of unfair.
Default Techmarine's turret >> default Plague Champion's turret
Missile turret << lascannon turret
What about balancing it?

Or maybe the difference lays in AV-capabilities of these two races? Everyone knows that all T1 units but scouts have av-abilities in t2 while chaos t1 roster contains only one unit being able to do av in T2? And 2 SM heroes have great anti-vehicle tools.

although I don't fault you for being curious as to why they are different, You need to consider how much time and how much knowledge you have of the game, and then balancing said game, before you start suggesting changes.

[Lulgrim]

The SM missile turret has two launchers, the dowcodex data says they do 15 dps (higher than Wikia data because of lowered reload time) - but it suffers from the burst damage formula calculating 0.6x damage for each missile, hence the real damage should be 130 / 5.2 = 25 dps each, 50 dps total.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... urret_left

I am not sure about CSM lascannon turret as I only have a sm_lascannon_turret on dowcodex, maybe it's really like that, or file name was typo'd, or we missed a file. Need Toolbox to check it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

something is wrong there either way. i know chaos has a las turret, i know sm doesn't in multi, and i don't think i've ever seen a model for one.

[Broodwich]

If every unit was balanced against one another, what would be the point of different races?

Although to be fair, I dont even remember the last time I got a dev squad. Pretty frequently get havocs though

[Lulgrim]

something is wrong there either way. i know chaos has a las turret, i know sm doesn't in multi, and i don't think i've ever seen a model for one.

What does the name of the file matter and what does this have to do with models? I can rename the weapon moomin_coffee_pot and put it under the Hormagaunt abilities folder and it will work just fine... I don't think you understood my message.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

no, i not understand it. i thought you were saying that there was a las turret listed in the SM section of the codex.

[Lulgrim]

There is. I was uncertain if it was

- 'csm' misspelled as 'sm' when we imported data
- unused weapon (meaning that the proper one is missing)
- actually used by the CSM turret

[Dark Riku]

I hope you don't deem me to be to pedantic Riku however:

"I don't see how this can even be up for debate." Isn't the same as
"I don't see why people are debating over this topic." I didn't miss any points.

Oh and one more thing, I think using havocs as a follow-up to CoT is a bit desperate to prove a point is it not?

CoT is my comparison to mark target. You either retreat or feel the pain.

-Force Commander
- Battlecry
- Power Sword Battlecry

Seriously? Same source, different values... And I already stated the FC is the only one that can frequently do this. Khorne Shrines give you a similar constant buff come t2 for the already higher damage dealing units although static but also spawns letters. And yes I know the battle cry buff can become higher given that the FC actually hit things and doesn't get crowd controlled.

SM buffs
-Force Commander
- Sacred Standard

Bravo to the guy that can use a hb for dmg in T3.
I also don't see how this will help with their initial role at all.

-Techmarine
- Venerable Dread on-kill inspiration

Again any reason why this isn't classified with the normal dreadnought?

All the buff that SM and Chaos have to directly increase the damage of the Devastators/Havocs. I ignore the defensive buffs (healing auras, Veil of Time/Chaos Sorcerer Rift...)

Yes let's leave out all the game changing stuff like teleporting lascannons/havocs or invisible ones, etc

So, maybe the Lasscannon Havoc do more damage, but the SM player can easily reach the same damage or even a higher one.

And that is fair because? Yeah no reason. Thought so. For example: Execute.

Devastators have the Vengeance Round upgrade, which SHREDS immune to suppression commanders, even with shields.

If they are dumb enough to charge in head first. This is something you usually won't even do vs other suppression teams either. Or the lootas for example who will shred those commanders anyways without any upgrade.


To summarize: the only thing SM has more on buffs is melee kills by the dread/libby.
To buff the damage of the Space Marine units which are already lower then there Chaos counterparts ~~ And leaving out all the utility and tricks is just plain stupid.
I would take a havoc over a HB any day in the SM roster even if that meant they couldn't get buffed since that doesn't happen (much) anyways.

[Orkfaeller]

-Techmarine
- Venerable Dread on-kill inspiration

Again any reason why this isn't classified with the normal dreadnought?

Maybe because the VenDread's inspiration is worse than the one of a vanilla Dread in T3^^

[Sub_Zero]

Dark Riku, for the Emperor, battle brother xD

although I don't fault you for being curious as to why they are different, You need to consider how much time and how much knowledge you have of the game, and then balancing said game, before you start suggesting changes.

I think I am allowed to suggest balance issues having 1000+ hours experience in the game, aren't I?

If every unit was balanced against one another, what would be the point of different races?

You know they are both space marines and those turrets are very similar. Of course it can be compared.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

-Force Commander
- Battlecry
- Power Sword Battlecry

Seriously? Same source, different values... And I already stated the FC is the only one that can frequently do this. Khorne Shrines give you a similar constant buff come t2 for the already higher damage dealing units although static but also spawns letters. And yes I know the battle cry buff can become higher given that the FC actually hit things and doesn't get crowd controlled.

Different values, different buffs. I can put Battlecry/Power Sword Battlecry if you wish.

Yeah, Khorne Shrine do all that things but... you know? Apart of the req/energy, the Shrine Cost 5 pop, which implies a passive reduction req income. Chaos IMHO are in the edge of the sword in this aspect (pop cost).

SM buffs
-Force Commander
- Sacred Standard

Bravo to the guy that can use a hb for dmg in T3.
I also don't see how this will help with their initial role at all.

+25% damage to the Devastator Lasscannon = 41.5 dps. More dps than the Havoc's Lasscannon. For example.

-Techmarine
- Venerable Dread on-kill inspiration

Again any reason why this isn't classified with the normal dreadnought

Different effect, different inspiration.
Dreadnought
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 20%, and increasing damage by 20% for 20 seconds.

Ven. Dreadnought or upgraded Dreadnought
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 35%, and increasing damage by 35% for 20 seconds.

All the buff that SM and Chaos have to directly increase the damage of the Devastators/Havocs. I ignore the defensive buffs (healing auras, Veil of Time/Chaos Sorcerer Rift...)

Yes let's leave out all the game changing stuff like teleporting lascannons/havocs or invisible ones, etc

The OP asked why (Lasscannon/Autocannon) Havocs are more effective or make more damage than SM (Lasscannon) Devastators. I said because the SM have more ways to buff the Devastators damage.

I'm not going to name all the fucking deffensive buffs. Thats why I ignored, yes, I ignored the Teleporting Lasscannons, the Tzeentch workshipp, Plague Champion heals and support... and forgot the Speedy Gonzalez VoT (Lasscanon)Devastators, the Inmune-to-suppression Combat stimms effect, the Apo heals...

So, maybe the Lasscannon Havoc do more damage, but the SM player can easily reach the same damage or even a higher one.

And that is fair because? Yeah no reason. Thought so. For example: Execute.

Wot? Seriously are you asking why?

Devastators have the Vengeance Round upgrade, which SHREDS immune to suppression commanders, even with shields.

If they are dumb enough to charge in head first. This is something you usually won't even do vs other suppression teams either. Or the lootas for example who will shred those commanders anyways without any upgrade.

Could me say then which is the role of offensive commanders with tank build?

Vengeance Rounds increase the damage by 75%. That is 378 dps at minimum range.

To summarize: the only thing SM has more on buffs is melee kills by the dread/libby.
To buff the damage of the Space Marine units which are already lower then there Chaos counterparts ~~ And leaving out all the utility and tricks is just plain stupid.
I would take a havoc over a HB any day in the SM roster even if that meant they couldn't get buffed since that doesn't happen (much) anyways.

Yeah, nobody buys Signum Armour. Nobody buys the FC Sacred Standard or the Power Sword. Nobody buys the Combat Stimms. No SM unit is buffed if the Terminators kill something.

[Sub_Zero]

Why do I have to spend extra resources on upgrades to make my setup time (devastators) at least as good as your setup team (havocs)? If I spend my resources on upgrades my setup time HAS to be way better than your default setup team but that doesn't really happen. And the only reliable damage buff is combat stimulants. And it makes devastators as good as havocs (av-weapon). While other buffs are really situational.

[Orkfaeller]

-Techmarine
- Venerable Dread on-kill inspiration

Again any reason why this isn't classified with the normal dreadnought

Different effect, different inspiration.
Dreadnought
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 20%, and increasing damage by 20% for 20 seconds.

Ven. Dreadnought or upgraded Dreadnought
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 35%, and increasing damage by 35% for 20 seconds.

I'm sorry, I know its kinda off topic, but when the heck was that made?
Cant remember reading in patchnotes that the VenDread got buffed like that.
Must have been totally blind, because the VDread didnt do that not too long ago.

[Faultron]

Why do I have to spend extra resources on upgrades to make my setup time (devastators) at least as good as your setup team (havocs)? If I spend my resources on upgrades my setup time HAS to be way better than your default setup team but that doesn't really happen. And the only reliable damage buff is combat stimulants. And it makes devastators as good as havocs (av-weapon). While other buffs are really situational.

Chaos is from corrupted space marines yes, but in this game, they have totally different playstyle, also they have demons.
it is not like Good Space marines vs Evil Space marines, with mirror units even if they have similar/same unit.
this things that you compare 1 unit from chaos to SM and you find differences is normal, doesnt break the balance.the problem starts where you cant win as SM vs Chaos overall/ at all.

[Vapor]

Why do I have to spend extra resources on upgrades to make my setup time (devastators) at least as good as your setup team (havocs)? If I spend my resources on upgrades my setup time HAS to be way better than your default setup team but that doesn't really happen. And the only reliable damage buff is combat stimulants. And it makes devastators as good as havocs (av-weapon). While other buffs are really situational.

One reason is that havoks are the only chaos t1 unit that can upgrade to any sort of real AV. SM can get missile tacs and melta bombs as upgrades. Also 2/3 SM heroes get awesome AV upgrades (sorry Apo).

[Dark Riku]

Yeah, Khorne Shrine do all that things but... you know? Apart of the req/energy, the Shrine Cost 5 pop, which implies a passive reduction req income. Chaos IMHO are in the edge of the sword in this aspect (pop cost).

I never said they are the same. They are kinda comparable if we are really having this comparison war. They both have their traits.

Ven. Dreadnought or upgraded Dreadnought
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 35%, and increasing damage by 35% for 20 seconds.

No. That is wrong. The vendread has the normal dread inspiration.
NOT the upgraded one as already mentioned even before your post by Orkafeller.

Wot? Seriously are you asking why?

Wot? Trouble reading?

Yeah, nobody buys Signum Armour. Nobody buys the FC Sacred Standard or the Power Sword. Nobody buys the Combat Stimms. No SM unit is buffed if the Terminators kill something.

Chaos also has similar counterparts to those as already stated before.
And Chaos already does more base damage as stated before as well.

[Caeltos]

All in it's glory, again.

DEFAULT DREADNOUGHT
The sight of a Dreadnought killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, increasing damage by 20%, and reducing received suppression by 20% for 20 seconds.

UPGRADED DREADNOUGHT
Increases health by 300 and improves the inspiration allies receive from kills made by the Dreadnought. Inspiration now increases damage by 35% and reduces received suppression by 30% for 20 seconds.

VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT
Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 20%, and increasing damage by 20% for 20 seconds.

OMGAWD IM DEAD VENDREAD
The Dreadnought fights through death for 10 seconds and cannot be disabled, slowed, or repaired. Every second, allied infantry in radius 35 are inspired, removing 20 courage damage, reducing received courage damage by 10%, and increasing damage by 5% for 10 seconds.

Librarian/Terminator INSPIRATION
Not actually describing it here, but I'm fairly sure the question was tossed around if it was stacking application - the answer was yes. So technically against lower-quantity models of squads, the damage % would stack up to quite a high figure. Of course, it really varies depending on what you're up against and everything, but I figured it's good for food for thought, much like Demoralize from CTERMINATORS.

[Tex]

My understanding was always that the havok las-cannon was buffed to be awesome because chaos T2 AV took a massive nerf in elite because it lost heavy_melee on bloodletters.

Also, havoks suffer from two of the worst problems a setup team can have:
1) They tear down incredibly slowly, even when under duress, often causing them to lose excess models or get wiped.
2) They get paralyzed and give your enemy an obvious visual clue when they are upgrading to a mark.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they take 10 seconds to upgrade though, which is only an issue if you want to do it in an engagement (valid issue). the lack of mobility while upgrading shouldn't be a huge issue. i think at one point that was a trade off for upgrading twice as fast but afaik they upgrade at the same rate as everyone else now.