Dawn of War Codex

Now i know this is probably going to raise some controversy, but that's a good thing if it does, it gets the community thinking and discussing. Now i know how great getting your hands on a new unit can be, but at what cost is it worth it. I'm not nitpicking the Vindicare assassin so your thought about that can stop. I'm talking about general balance, we need all the races to be balanced. And while bugs and stuff can be a problem, that's inevitable. Now i appreciate the work that the team has done up to this point but some adjustments need to be made. Some things are just somewhat out of control, and the reason i don't go back and play retail is because that is out of control in general. Newer units in general just seem to be standing out as of late, Doom, VA (still in beta i get it), Painboy, these are some prime examples. As a person who truly does love this game i'd like to see a hold off on all the new shiny units, and a deep look at balance as a whole. Every single asset of balance too, every unit, every ability, everything in general. So i'm asking the community, what do you guys want as a community?

I voted for balance, but would like to say:
I do not know all the new units that Caeltos has in mind for all the races. If all races get powerful units, then I suppose things can be balanced that way. An example maybe VA being a proper counter that GK can have against the painboy.
Moreover, I also have no clue what Caeltos has in mind regarding how each race is going to play out with Tau, and this may be a good enough reason for adding new units.
Of course, adding new units to each race simultaneously is not possible with the only the people that are currently working, and it will take time, which is why we may be seeing new units added, and getting nerfed before their counterpart is added.
All in all, I would love to get a bigger view from Caeltos regarding this matter.

Lol,

I expected it to be more even, but I clicked balance just because we're running out of room for new units atm (don't hate me for saying it or anything). Although if you had said new fucking RACE I would have been all over that!

xerrol-nanoha wrote:Lol,

I expected it to be more even, but I clicked balance just because we're running out of room for new units atm (don't hate me for saying it or anything). Although if you had said new fucking RACE I would have been all over that!

there is a new race coming, new race = new units

Seriously why not both?

Because new units are usually imbalanced and need to be nerfed/buffed ?

Yeah and therefore you have a beta.

Well, statistically speaking, adding a unit to a race automatically make that race stronger even if the unit itself is weak.
More choices mean more adaptability and new synergies.

If new units are in progress, simply prioritize the ones for the weaker race at the moment.

i want i balanced Harlequin xD
just jerk, balance for primary
new unit/ race not important, for major udates/expansion is alright but i dont think caeltos team gonna produce infinite new units its not their goal.or at least i hope:)
but in RTS when u have 8 race(2014 Tau) u need multiple/specific units , so u are forced to create new unit for balance, not for fun.
if this game even it is WH40K would have only 3 race i would still play and love the same.personally i dont want to have more then 8 race, this is already too much.
it is very hard to balance for 3 race in games, not to mention this:)

Balance first. Units first is Codex mod thinking.

You're right - a lot of things need to be re-evaluated.

And we can start with how Riku managed to lose 3 finals with his Apo and then trololol Noisy with the Lictor even though he has mained Apo since forever. It's debatable that either Apo or Lictor (imo both) need a look at based on that alone.

For me GK < SM/CSM/IG/Ork < Eldar/Tyranids.

I don't want any race hammer nerfed, but I'd like GK to get some round-the-board buffs, and for Eldar and Tyranids to get some hits: Eldar particularly have benefited from all the new units. It's them and Tyranids who have the so strong new units.

Ar-Aamon wrote:Yeah and therefore you have a beta.

Okay, that didn't work.

Why make new units that will need to be balanced/will need models and shit even though the units are not needed, instead of balancing what is in the game ?
i'd like to see orks get nerfed (even though i main them :S) instead of some fancy looking new units...

Voted balance, as someone previously said, this isn't Codex Edition. However I do believe there is a kind of middle ground between the two.

(This is from a previous post but rather relevant I feel)

Minor visual changes are where its at for elite, and also for people who want more unit diversity in the mod, rather than adding more and more units and risking screwing up balance, diverse units should come from having different models depending on what army you pick, as is being started with Legion of the Damned and Alpha Legion chapters.

Another example could be swapping the Howling Banshees for the Striking Scorpions if you pick one of the Eldar heroes - same stats and abilities (not strictly fluffy I know, but then that's never been this mods primary concern) but people would get their unit variety without needing to balance a whole new unit.

Another example, if somebody was able to create new models, would be Bloodletters. If you choose the PC then you get Plaguebearers, CS then you get Horrors. Exactly the same stats and abilities just a different model.

This way you would get some of the extra fluff people like and the balance remains.

Would be kinda lulz to see teleporting plague bearers

Yeah don't think that's a good idea. Balance is key obviously but you don't just screw over the fluff for it.

True, but the point still stands regarding swapping models and keeping stats.

Plus there's not that much more of a dissonance between that and the current mash up of marks and units of various different gods all running around together for Chaos in DoW 2.

But each individual mark/unit behaves as you'd expect, regardless of whether they are fielded together. Teleporting Plaguebearers or Scorpions as Banshee glass cannons makes nobody happy.

Fair point, would be great to find a way to incorporate new models in such a way that wasn't detrimental to balance though.

ChrisNihilus wrote:Well, statistically speaking, adding a unit to a race automatically make that race stronger even if the unit itself is weak.
More choices mean more adaptability and new synergies.

If new units are in progress, simply prioritize the ones for the weaker race at the moment.

Depends of the state of the squad/unit. If the new squad is (relatively) balanced or OP, of course the race is going to be stronger. If the new squad is UP (for X reason) not.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:

ChrisNihilus wrote:Well, statistically speaking, adding a unit to a race automatically make that race stronger even if the unit itself is weak.
More choices mean more adaptability and new synergies.

If new units are in progress, simply prioritize the ones for the weaker race at the moment.

Depends of the state of the squad/unit. If the new squad is (relatively) balanced or OP, of course the race is going to be stronger. If the new squad is UP (for X reason) not.

adding the whirlwind didn't make SM stronger.....

It didn't, his line of reasoning is totally valid. The whirlwind does have a use in 3v3 and I've seen it contribute more than its price, it's just very niche and never really applicable to 1v1, but his point does still stand.

One thing that could be used would be different unit models! What i mean is the same unit, stats etc but just members with different bling and stuff. For example banshees with the new skins from david mixed with the old models. Dont know how easy it is to implement though

The point of a beta is the testing and bug fixing of new units until they are in a balanced state. Which is why we keep having beta release cycles. Somethings you just can't anticipate on paper, which is where you need the actual feedback.

However everyone plays the most current beta as if it were the current release version. Honestly one result I see of stuff like this is a closed beta. Pretty sure people would be less happy with that route. Additionally, the monthly rumbles might use the most current release version instead of the betas.

Additionally, threads like this can be discouraging for a mod team. It basically says I don't like the way you're doing things and you should do it differently. Keep in mind that this is their mod, that we are allowed to play. That is not a right, but a privelege. The individuals contributing to this are not getting paid, and don't work in the industry. Allow for not having decades of experience and a 40 hour work week.

I mean to call no one out with this. Just consider it when wording your responses.

Lastly, the most buggy, unbalanced beta we have had is still more balanced than the state that relic left retail.

Thank you mod team.

Kvek wrote:Would be kinda lulz to see teleporting plague bearers

hehe or melee fighting horrors.

i voted for new units because i trust you in balancing.

balance makes long time fun.
new units bring moar players ... thats what the game needs atm.

actually i think most of us play this game for a long time now.

im getting tired of it. i just need to have some fresh stuff.

dont get me wrong. balance is important. but more important is the demand to play

sk4zi wrote:

Kvek wrote:Would be kinda lulz to see teleporting plague bearers

hehe or melee fighting horrors.

i voted for new units because i trust you in balancing.

balance makes long time fun.
new units bring moar players ... thats what the game needs atm.

actually i think most of us play this game for a long time now.

im getting tired of it. i just need to have some fresh stuff.

dont get me wrong. balance is important. but more important is the demand to play

Who would want to play a mod with 500 units that are all super-imbalanced ?
try new builds, they are better than new units :S

Hey, I play CnC Retarded! I resent that statement Kvek! ;-; But you do bring about a good point. I'd rather the team has a closed beta with new units, and actually keep some things under-wraps instead of a super cool secret revealed, all the while having the latest stable build working and not-super-imbalanced; unless that is the intention of the mod, like CnC Retarded.

Kvek wrote:

sk4zi wrote:

Kvek wrote:Would be kinda lulz to see teleporting plague bearers

hehe or melee fighting horrors.

i voted for new units because i trust you in balancing.

balance makes long time fun.
new units bring moar players ... thats what the game needs atm.

actually i think most of us play this game for a long time now.

im getting tired of it. i just need to have some fresh stuff.

dont get me wrong. balance is important. but more important is the demand to play

Who would want to play a mod with 500 units that are all super-imbalanced ?
try new builds, they are better than new units :S

The answer is quite simple, noobs, because they don't even have a concept of balance on elite. The results of this poll disgust me. The poll isn't even suggesting a specific type of balance, it is just asking do you want balance in them mod, or new units, so everybody is allowed to have their own conception of perfect balance and some people are actually saying they wouldn't want that and they want new units? Ridiculous. You can't derive any competitive entertainment from those new units if there is no balance, I guess all those who voted for new units just play vs bots or something.

This mod is called "Elite Balance Mod".

Clue's in the name. It's also been underlined specially for the people who voted units so you can't miss it

the only way we can get new units and have a balanced mod is if everything is 100% balanced pre their release. I'm not saying completely cut off new units, because not only are they very fun and have their important roles, but slow them down. Lately we've been getting alot of new units and i'd rather have a more in depth look at the balance rather than getting these new toys all the time. Not only that but i'd imagine the balancing would be easier if they stopped releasing new units. Just my thoughts on it. And for the person who said it's a hate thread, you clearly didn't read my OP.

but slow them down. Lately we've been getting alot of new units and i'd rather have a more in depth look at the balance rather than getting these new toys all the time.

This.

Units that fill large gaping holes aslong as they don't make the faction that gets them invicibile are fine (see like getting ONE subcommander per faction) this also makes up for more skill combos aswell more meta in t2 and later.

But units that further fortify a position or fill all the counter roles making a faction uncounterable are a big no, and yes im looking at nid squad leaders,doom there but not only at these.
They also have only the opposite effect compared to point 1, they make those races A-move and able to easily steamroll everything in a single click.

@Torpid
Just as you are disgusted with the results of the poll, so too am I disgusted with your response. It's a poll. With more than one answer. What would be the point of a poll with one correct answer? The derision is neither wanted nor appreciated. The division of dichotomies that you have constructed do no good here.

@Raffa
See above.

@Crazyman
This isn't a hate thread, and I didn't call it one. I said it could be discouraging to a mod team.

In General:
I voted new units. Do I play vs bots? Only If I'm procrastinating my homework and there are no games up. Am I a noob? I have 860 some hours in this game now, a significant portion of which occurred while playing the elite mod. You might consider that "noobish", I don't know. Seems like a bit of a stretch though. Why did I vote units? Because I am satisfied with the progress of the balance improvements made to this mod over time. Changes are well thought out, and are incremental. New units aren't just arbitrarily thrown into the mod. I do not believe balance and the addition of new units are mutually exclusive. I expect balance and new content to increase for as long as the mod team is willing to continue this project. Keeping static will kill this mod, along with the rest of the playerbase, and I fear that waiting for new content to 100% perfectly balanced every time it is introduced is going to mean that content will basically just not be added. Perhaps I'm coming at this differently as I see this project as an expansion of the game it self instead of only a re-balancing of what is already there.