Terminators

[Sub_Zero]

Here is the list of issues that bother me and I would like to discuss about it:

1) SM Assault Terminators.

Why are they only exclusive for the Force Commander while all chaos heroes can deploy them (and paying 100 req less)? The Techmarine has his "melee beast" and the Apo needs a beefy melee unit too. Why wouldn't allow the Apo to call in assault terminators too?

2) Chaos Terminators equipped with the lightning claws

They have the same health pool and the same damage output as SM Assault Terminators with the lightning claws. However their special ability is way better. And I am talking about the demoralization. Why is it better? Because it doesn't depend on your battle brothers being close to benefit. This ability just makes all enemies worse in terms of damage output and damage resistance and you don't need your units to be close. I don't ask to change it but I think it is kind of unfair to reinforce Chaos Terminators with the lightning claws cheaper. Only 100 req and 50 power. If they are better overall why do they cost less? Oh, yeah and yet another thing. Is it just me or do they seem to perform special attacks way often than their counterpart do?

3) Grey Knights Terminators

Let's start with this statement - they cost no red whatsoever and way cheaper than their counterparts. But I am kinda OK with it. But let's look at the cost of model reinforcing. 108 req and 18 power. Is it OK? They are the best anti-infantry unit in the game and so tanky and you pay this pathetic amount of resources to bring them into the battle again. And I think this is terribly unfair.

4) SM Terminators with the assault cannon

60 piercing dps and that is a T3 weapon of a super unit. It can supress but it rarely comes into play. Some kind of an unreliable option. To get this weapon you have to pay 100 req and 80 power. The same amount of resources you have to pay to get the autocannon (Chaos Terminators) which acts as an anti-everything ranged weapon. Decimates light infantry, hurts heavy/super heavy infantry, threatens vehicles. The assault cannon is only better against commanders and subcommanders. Does poor damage against heavy infantry and super heavy infantry, don't even talk about vehicles. Here I see two solutions. We buff the assault cannon so it could supress way faster and remain the cost. Or we lower the cost. I do know that SM Terminators have more health than Chaos Terminators.

[xerrol nanoha]

Hi,

So lets start with assault terminators.
You should well consider them a commander unit special squad, similar to the banewolf (and no longer similar to the Seer Council). To that end, it's okay for the force commander and the techmarine to have unique callin units (as you haven't expressed concern that only the techmarine gets the venerable despite being in a similar situation.) To that end, the problem lies with the Apothecary (which there is recent debate that he needs some kinds of changes) and that he lacks a unique callin option, traded for global buff effects instead.

Since you've expressed interest in changing the apothecary to incorporate assault terminators, I would instead encourage you to consider which global of the apothecary you would see removed, and then what you would replace it with. I would be hesitant to give the Force commander's assault terminators to the Apothecary, and would encourage something unique to replace it (like Valkyrie whirlwind drop) if you desire. HOWEVER, you should first consider to the two unique globals the apothecary already has, being larraman's blessing (for which there is current debate over changes) and angel's of death.

In order to justify giving assault terminators or some other unique drop, you should first explain why those two unique abilities (in combination with standard terminators) should be replaced with assault terminators or something else.


MOVING ON.
Chaos Claw Terminators.
I'm not gonna deal with the unit cost, as I personally think that space marine terminators and assault terminators are superior to chaos terminators. However, I believe I can shed some light on the Chaos terminators demoralize ability in comparison to the Loyalist terminators inspiration ability.

Although I've talked about this at length in my Inspiration thread, you have to look at the two instances when both abilities would provide the most benefit:

Loyalist inspiration is strongest when you have the most nearby units and weakest when you have the least. This means that the effects of inspiration are greater if you are ahead, and weaker if you are behind (or other circumstances). I've described this mechanic as being 'snowbally', and although it can be the edge to win you battles, it is more likely a cherry on top to secure you the victory once you start to build late game momentum.

This has the side effect of encouraging space marine players to ball up their armies and fight large committed battles where inspiration can effect the most units, and killing enemies to trigger it is more likely. This is contrast to the already respectable mobility of space marines in the early game, with tacticals providing good capping and pushing ability and scouts providing high utility.

On the other hand, Chaos terminators are more "conservative" in a manner of speaking: Their inspiration is more effective when the enemy has more units, and less effective when the enemy has fewer units. This grants chaos terminators more independence (which is aided by their more versatile weapon picks, allowing them to fill either the roles of assault or tactical terminators). This Independence is very important, because Chaos has long been regarded as the least mobile of all of the factions. Although having powerful blobbing potential, the ability to spread out and cover ground effectively has been setback by a lack of affordable transport and mobile reinforcement.

At the same time, the demoralize ability doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the the Chaos army in large fights (in fact, it helps when there are more enemies around). It's important to note here, that the demoralize ability is not 'snowbally' in the same way as the loyalist inspiration is, because demoralize will provide greater benefit if your opponent has a larger force or blobs up their army, and can therefore help in maintaining the chaos edge in an unfavorable late game.

GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS:
I know I already said I didn't want to talk about money, but since that's all this point is about I'll give it a shot. Grey Knight terminators are in a strange spot, as with all grey knight units in general they are superior in melee to their loyalist and chaos terminator counterparts. However, they are uncompetitive in melee with either Chaos claw terminators or Assault terminators (and paladins in the mirror). I wouldn't speak for Caeltos here, as grey knights are his baby, but I would imagine that the reduced power cost is a result of Grey knight terminators not being a global ability and not having the immediate map presence that the other factions have. Beyond that I can only guess it's an issue of flavor.

THE ASSAULT CANNON:
First of all, I would point out that the assault cannon has nearly double the damage per second of the autocannon. Although the assault cannon has reduced multipliers to heavy/ superheavy and vehicle armor, that doesn't mean that the assault cannon is bad or that it should even be compared to the autocannon at all.

Lets look at the basics:
1) The assault cannon (especially with its ability to maintain suppression applied by another squad) is better at killing infantry and heavy infantry than the autocannon.
2) Loyalist terminators have way more health than Chaos terminators, which means that (along with the default heavy melee power fist) they are much more suited to close range combat than Chaos terminators.

What does this do?
1) Loyalist terminators are a more versatile unit, that can both kill and suppress infantry at range (as well as force them out of entrenched positions) they have the added benefit of close range AV augmented by superior health.
2) Chaos terminators with the autocannon are a very tanky ranged specialist unit. The autocannon deals good damage to all targets and the health/ suppression immunity allows chaos terminators to play aggressively but stay within their role as a ranged unit unless otherwise needed. they are distinguished from loyalist terminators by a difference in playstyle.

You might consider autocannon chaos terminators to be at the opposite end of the spectrum as assault terminators, with loyalist assaultcannon terminators in the middle.

I hope that provides some insight to you; best of luck.

[David-CZ]

I think Apo doesn't have Assault Termintors because of his nature. He's a support commander. And with his support they could easily become almost twice as strong.

Regarding the reinforce cost of GK Terminators I have to say I don't like it at all. But since GK don't have any other T3 units (besides the LR) and because they're still in need of new units, in other words being unfinished all in all, it's tolerable. At least I hope there is still more for GK to come.

[Arbit]

I disagree that the asscan is better than the autocannon against infantry. The autocannon ignores cover because of the damage type and AOE, and hitting two models puts it about equal to asscan dps (35 x 2 = ~70, although under realistic circumstances there will be some damage falloff).

More importantly, it's a versatile upgrade - the autocannon is far more useful against late game SHI and vehicle units, while maintaining performance levels similar to the asscan against infantry. On the flip side, the asscan is utterly worthless against SHI and vehicle units while only being marginally better against infantry (and the latter is debatable, frankly).

The asscan excels at focusing a single target entity i.e. hero or subcommander and occasionally suppressing something, and it can be difficult to make use of the latter ability.

I'd like to see the cyclone barrage be tighter so it was more useful as an antivehicle ability. If that means fewer missiles so it doesn't squad wipe stuff that would be fine with me. They should have a more reliable ranged anti-all option.

edit: I'd also say that loyalist ranged termies having more health makes them better at AV relative to chaos termies, but they are still bad at it. They are still very slow and offensively teleporting is risky. Their extra HP really just gives them a little cushion in case their little punching expedition goes awry

[Forestradio]

the assault cannon is FANTASTIC at retreat killing due to its firing pattern and the way it shoots. Once the termie starts a burst, unless he is engaged in melee, he will finish shooting it.
Means that low health commanders/single entities are screwed if targeted by the assault cannon.


Nerf GK termies and you nerf a GK T3 that is severely lacking in options at the moment.
No tank, no artillery, etc


Chaos claw termies do seem to throw around a lot more special attacks than assault termies do but I'm not sure why.

Please do not change the cyclone missile launcher, it is a fantastic ability that many people don't know about. Single-handedly changes entire engagements if used on a ranged blob.

[Arbit]

That is true - the asscan do great burst and single target damage. I should give it more credit than I did. I'd still take the autocannon upgrade any day, though.

[ThongSong]

it does seem that chaos lightning terms pull their special off far more often than their loyalist counterparts

[Sub_Zero]

I am glad that I am not the only one who notices strange Chaos Terminators behaviour (tons of special attacks). Can you shed some light on this issue? Do they posses better melee skill due to a mistake? Or were they given a special property?

as you haven't expressed concern that only the techmarine gets the venerable despite being in a similar situation.)

This unit is unique to the Techamarine because only him can provide proper support. I wouldn't really go for a T3 walker having the Apo or the Force Commander as my commander.

Since you've expressed interest in changing the apothecary to incorporate assault terminators, I would instead encourage you to consider which global of the apothecary you would see removed, and then what you would replace it with

And I don't pretend to touch and copy to other heroes the unique ability of the Force Commander to call in Assault Terminators but as long as the Chaos heroes have no access to this ability. Yes, they cannnot get Assault Terminators with the hammers and the stormshields, it is the only little thing that deviates Chaos melee terminators from SM melee terminators. Notice that ALL Chaos heroes received the ability to call in terminators without suffering any penalty. And I don't wanna see any global ability of the Apo removed.

Loyalist inspiration is strongest when you have the most nearby units and weakest when you have the least.

This is true, you have to stack up your units to gain benefits. And Chaos terminators don't need this, they can fight on their own and BENEFIT from it lowering enemy's units damage output and damage resistance. Loyalist terminators NEED their battle brothers alongside them to make this special trait work. That is why I can state that Chaos terminators' special trait is better. Since it doesn't require your allies to work. And really matters not how much units your opponent has. All will be demoralized by the same amount (-5% damage output and +2% damage taken) and this thing can stack 5 times. Of course it has limited area of effect

[Sub_Zero]

However, they are uncompetitive in melee with either Chaos claw terminators or Assault terminators (and paladins in the mirror).

I really doubt it. Paladins will get destroyed quite easily since they are not an anti-infantry squad, they are anti-everything (heavy melee). Grey Knights Terminators have 5400 health and SM and Chaos Assault Terminators have only 4500. Grey Knight Terminators have 53 power melee dps x 3 (and can boost it to 60 power melee dps for 15 seconds) and SM and Chaos Assault Terminators have 70 power melee dps x 3. And all these terminators do splash damage. Grey Knights Terminators have slightly worse splash damage though. So it is a close fight I guess, didn't test it, can't say for sure.

1) The assault cannon (especially with its ability to maintain suppression applied by another squad) is better at killing infantry and heavy infantry than the autocannon.

I disagree. The splash damage of the autocannon compensates lesser amount of dps. And it has 1 multiplier against all targets but vehicles and commanders (0.75 here). The damage of the assault cannon decreases from light infantry to vehicles quite significantly. And I want to point out again that I didn't ask for a damage buff for the assault cannon. I just suggested to make it better in terms of supression. Or make its cost less since it doesn't provide huge benefits.

[appiah4]

The Autocannon is great at killing high count low HP units (and units in cover). The Assault Cannon is great at killing low count high HP units. Different uses. I'd much rather have the Autocannon because it threatens vehicles, which is a million times more important.

[Ace of Swords]

If you think about it, inspiration is pretty, fucking, bad.

Do your termies inspire themselves? No.
Do they inspire vehicles? No.
Do they inspire setup teams? In theory yes, but in practice no because they are too far.
Do they inspire ASM? No because they are also too far.

What do they inspire then? Tacts/scouts mainly, of which damage is quite pathetic especially in t3.

Meanwhile chaos terminators in a couple of the auto cannon shots have debuffed your whole army vehicles included, or atleast that was the case of dreds a few patch ago, not sure if it was changed or fixed.

Then, SM terminators are the most expensive to purchase and reinforce, the least effective and can only specialize in a single thing.


But I guess space marines have the best t3 right?

[Torpid]

Yeah termies are pretty bad atm. The additional units haven't helped, but nor have the libby nerfs in that regard. They definitely unfairly underperform.

[Asmon]

Inspiration radius is 35 which is close to max range (38) so it's pretty meh to say they cannot inspire ASM or whatever. Plus it stacks, while Chaos Terminator debuff is a mere -5%.

[Uncle Milty]

it does seem that chaos lightning terms pull their special off far more often than their loyalist counterparts

Guess why.
Both terminator variants start off with melee skill 60, Chaos lightning claw wargear adds +10 melee skill, sm lightning claw wargear doesn't.
gk terms start off with 70 melee skill tho. So do Paladins.

- edit -
Also the chaos terminator debuff is not exclusive.

[Lulgrim]

Yes I can confirm Ass Terms actually have 60 melee skill.

[MaxPower]

Yes I can confirm Ass Terms actually have 60 melee skill.

So not only are ass termies (what an appropriate name) more expensive to reinforce and exclusive to the FC, also need another expensive (UP) unit to support (unlike lets say tics which are dirt cheap), and in the end they are also worse (because of the reduced melee skill compared to the Chaos LC Termies) at fighting stuff.

Barrance much.

Okay, how about we either remove the +10 melee skill from the chaos terminators or we reduce the reeinforcment cost for the Ass Termis or they should gain a + 10 on melee skill when upgrading with the claws.

[Lulgrim]

Ass Term melee skill is probably an oversight more than a balance decision, can't see why they shouldn't have 70 to begin with.

[Ace of Swords]

they should gain a + 10 on melee skill when upgrading with the claws.

They MUST have 70 melee skill baseline, atleast the assault termies, really Im gonna assume it was a bug or something that went forgotten.

[Sub_Zero]

while Chaos Terminator debuff is a mere -5%.

Killing enemies in melee inspires (non-Terminator) allied infantry in radius 35, increasing their damage by 5% and lowering received suppression by 10% for 15 seconds - from Wiki
Supression resistance seems like a joke really when Chaos Terminators make enemies more vulnerable to damage.

or they should gain a + 10 on melee skill when upgrading with the claws.

I would prefer this variant

Well I feel better that at least one problem is taken into consideration.

[Orkfaeller]

This really explains why CHaos Terminators juggle them arround that much in duels.

Allways asumed loyal Terminators didnt have knockback on their specials or something.

[Classy Marine David]

Concerning Termies you have to recall that SM have only one fragile unit that can be focused down to get the debuff on the SM army (scouts) whilst CSM have Heretics and Bloodletters which can be focused down gaining the buff, as the rest of both armies are quite tough.
(Pound for pound SM are tougher but do less damage and vice versa for CSM) As for Assault Termies (besides the defualt 60 melee skill, Relic) the FC can add on to their buffs resulting in massive buffs being added. Battle Cry with PS and Chapter Banner is a scary prospect to face. To note, SM can be better supported with a Librarian or LRR (of course this rarely happens to have two very powerful units) While Heretics are powerful in supporting they offer less in comparison to the abilities (teleport or VoT) offered by the Liby, not to mention being safer (but he ofc more expensive) as heretics are unable to move or attack. It really comes down to the heroes of SM to support their Terminators to make them shine.

[KanKrusha]

I would think twice before buffing ass terms melee skill. I suspect it is 60 so that they can be tied up by high melee skill units like seer council. Perhaps the other terms should have melee skill 60 too

[Torpid]

That makes no sense Kan, Assault terminators can't be knocked over anyway and t2 melee squads have 70 MS so AsT are not gonna be flipping seer council all over the place are they - or khorne marines for that matter, however what having 70MS would do is make them counter ranged units better as well as t1 melee, which obviously they ought to. There is no consideration to be had here, it is clearly an oversight, no t3 dedicated melee unit should have 60MS.

[KanKrusha]

Yeah, I realized that when i pressed submit. Specials do change the way that units fight tho, so instead of hitting a single model the unit is hitting multiple.
edit - instead of killing a single model with a strike they could wipe a whole squad

I am not saying 70 Melee skill is wrong, I just think that it was 60 on purpose and that should be considered first

[Sub_Zero]

Didn't see a reply that supports my position about Chaos Terminators (lightning claws) reinforcing cost. Is it OK for you to leave it as it is?

What about a permission for the Apo to call in Assault Terminators? A beafy melee unit would not hurt for a commander that contributes nothing in terms of fighting in t2-t3.

Cheap Grey Knight Terminators? What about them?

Do we have to do something with the assault cannon?

I want to hear your ideas, opinions and suggestions.

[Ace of Swords]

SM termies weapons are fine, though LC termies should be allowed to any commander, Thunder hammer & stormshield exclusive to the FC.

The only real problem I Could see is with LC termies is with Mark target, but then again GK termies with purge (30% damage debuff) & infiltration (25%+ damage) are considered fine, so perhaps there is no real problem then.

[Broodwich]

They were probably given 60 Ms as part of the wide variety of nerfs they have received in the past before leveling was removed, then forgotten

[Tex]

BUY SOME VANGUARDS. They are basically flying mini ass terms that can retreat and can jump twice instead of once!

Good Lord. Why on God's green Earth do the apo and the tm need to be able to summon assault terminators? Like what is the reasoning exactly? Is it solely because all 3 chaos heroes can summon terminators and the upgrades are universally available? Should I then be crying about not being able to reinforce out of my land raider but you can out of yours? Seriously, this is a shit argument.

I'm also pretty annoyed that people are saying the SM termy assault cannon is crap.

W T F.

Have you ever taken a burst of that to the face. No? Try it. See if your hero comes out with half hp or less after 1 fucking burst. It is a phenomenal weapon and saying it needs to be better simply because the Chaos auto-cannon is one of those very desirable utility weapons is just absurd.

SM termy weapon upgrades are a bit more specialized, with the AC being a single entity death sentence, the flamer being instant AOE death, and the missiles being best suited for large scale engagements or close range spikes. It is my belief that all three are useful in their own right and that their pricing is largely correct.

The auto-cannon for chaos comes on a squishier target and also comes as a boon to a race that can really struggle against vehicles.

[Sub_Zero]

When I write that I want to hear opinions etc I assume that these opinions will be adequate. Why are people allowed to write abusive language? What about to keep yourself in hands? We are not on the street here and so the language should be appropriate. And now to the topic.

BUY SOME VANGUARDS. They are basically flying mini ass terms that can retreat and can jump twice instead of once!

You can't really compare 1800 hp of heavy armor and 30 power melee x2, 40 power melee dps, 45 power melee dps to 4500 hp of super heavy armor and 70 power melee dps with a splah x3.

do the apo and the tm need to be able to summon assault terminators?

As long as the Chaos heroes can do it so should the SM heroes. And I only suggested to give this possibility to the Apo. He lacks a strong melee unit in his army. That is my simple reason.

Should I then be crying about not being able to reinforce out of my land raider but you can out of yours?

The SM land raider is terrible at combat while the Chaos land raider decimates everything it sees. However this is not about the topic so don't respond on this.

Have you ever taken a burst of that to the face. No? Try it. See if your hero comes out with half hp or less after 1 fucking burst. It is a phenomenal weapon and saying it needs to be better simply because the Chaos auto-cannon is one of those very desirable utility weapons is just absurd.

The assault cannon is only better against commanders and subcommanders. - my quote from the first post. I kinda know it. And I only suggested a price reduction or to make the weapon more reliable in terms of supression, it should supress faster in my opinion.

[Uncle Milty]

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept ... of a concept.
It is save to assume that the developers did have a concept in mind when designing the factions and options each commander has. So basically the FC was designed from the start to have access to assault terminators late game. The apo was not.
So there seems to be a good reason for the apo to not have access to a trololol melee heavyweight in t3 that can benefit from angels of death, his healing aura and so on.

Also design-wise there is a nice diversity in playstyle for each commander even for the same race. Please approve that you have this.