Dawn of War Codex

It doesn't look right when some dudes wearing vests and headbands beat up armored infantry. Besides, IG T1 feels sufficiently powerful and Catachans get 90% of their utility from abilities. Discuss.

Because they're supposed to be a melee counter and without power melee that doesn't work too well if ASM's or Raptors jump on them

Yeah, the kill ASM/raptors/warriors, something that IG struggle with quite badly really. Especially come T2.

The question is more; do they really need power melee AND shotgun blast ?

Catachan are known to use power weapons lore wise.

In terms of is it necessary for IG to have power weapons, I think it's stated well enough in previous comments.

Telos wrote:Catachan are known to use power weapons lore wise.

This has been said a thousand time; you can't balance something only with the lore, even the tabletop wh40k game is not lore friendly.

Torpid wrote:Yeah, the kill ASM/raptors/warriors, something that IG struggle with quite badly really. Especially come T2.

Come T2 SM/Chaos struggle against Chimera and massive ranged firepower a lot worse and getting ASM/Raptors isn't helping that at all, granted SM is a bit better of with the melta bomb and rocket launcher on the tacs. Warriors are even worse off with the synapse backlash.

Telos wrote:Catachan are known to use power weapons lore wise.

Ok.

SarDauk wrote:
This has been said a thousand time; you can't balance something only with the lore, even the tabletop wh40k game is not lore friendly.

He seemed to take issue with how it 'looked'

Yabbaman wrote:It doesn't look right when some dudes wearing vests and headbands beat up armored infantry....

Just pointing out that dudes wearing vests and headbands beating up armored infantry is in fact lore-friendly

Telos wrote:Just pointing out that dudes wearing vests and headbands beating up armored infantry is in fact lore-friendly

Yes and I acknowledged your response, no need to repeat yourself.

Yabbaman wrote:It doesn't look right when some dudes wearing vests and headbands beat up armored infantry. Besides, IG T1 feels sufficiently powerful and Catachans get 90% of their utility from abilities. Discuss.

Catachans are so stealthy that they can sneak up on Spotters and steal their detection.

It's a way to make them effective against power-armour melee without also being too strong against light infantry. If you wanted them to be sufficiently effective against raptors and ASM without power_melee, you would need to increase their damage to a point where they would now be too effective against light infantry. That is why power-melee exists.

Oddnerd wrote:It's a way to make them effective against power-armour melee without also being too strong against light infantry. If you wanted them to be sufficiently effective against raptors and ASM without power_melee, you would need to increase their damage to a point where they would now be too effective against light infantry. That is why power-melee exists.

They are already particularly effective against light infantry with that insane insta grenade barrage. Very good at wiping squads on retreat too.

tbh i never really liked it much either since melee damage is not lowered by heavy infantry armor. I always liked the idea of more crowd control or them using guerrilla tactics like attacking falling back and them breakin retreat to reengage.


And while yes the are few catachans could take on a Space Marine one on one in melee, most cannot in lore. Here are a few that can.

Gunnery Sergeant "Stonetooth" Harker

Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken

Arden

And then you have Sly Marbo. Who could probably kill Bobby G (Roboute Guilliman) tbh

I am just going to remind you that Imperial Guard has no melee squads to use. Well, you have Ogryns, but they are T2.

I don't really see Catas as an overpowered squad. As mentioned before, they need ze powah melee to combat jump squads. The only thing they have that is possibly too good is IED (mostly due to its sight radius).

In what universe are ASM/Raptors not good against GM with Chimera?

Lore wise ASM/Raptors would slaughter pretty much all IG infantry if given the chance to jump, stopped only after dozens of casualties and a wall of lasgun fire.

I understand the need for power melee for balancing purposes, but this is one of the many times in which the game fails to adequately convey its balance design to the player. Catas don't draw massive power weapons in melee, devs look the same as tacs so you assume them to be competent in melee too.

Nurland wrote:I don't really see Catas as an overpowered squad. As mentioned before, they need ze powah melee to combat jump squads. The only thing they have that is possibly too good is IED (mostly due to its sight radius).

This is not a balance proposal, not complaining about them being op.

Nurland wrote:In what universe are ASM/Raptors not good against GM with Chimera?

Not saying they are bad, but not awesome either. Vulnerable to a stomp, IG splitting his squads, massive ranged damage on an expensive to reinforce squad. Also, the fact that you get them, delays your t2 tech, and an early chimera is more pain for SM/Chaos than an early jump melee squad for IG. Again, this isn't about balance.

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:I am just going to remind you that Imperial Guard has no melee squads to use. Well, you have Ogryns, but they are T2.

Thanks.

Yabbaman wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:It's a way to make them effective against power-armour melee without also being too strong against light infantry. If you wanted them to be sufficiently effective against raptors and ASM without power_melee, you would need to increase their damage to a point where they would now be too effective against light infantry. That is why power-melee exists.

They are already particularly effective against light infantry with that insane insta grenade barrage. Very good at wiping squads on retreat too.

All the more reason not to remove their power melee damage and be forced to compensate with an additional ~7 dps per model to keep them effective against HI armour jump troops.

Oddnerd wrote:All the more reason not to remove their power melee damage and be forced to compensate with an additional ~7 dps per model to keep them effective against HI armour jump troops.

I don't want them to do well in melee against HI jump troops.

Yabbaman wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:All the more reason not to remove their power melee damage and be forced to compensate with an additional ~7 dps per model to keep them effective against HI armour jump troops.

I don't want them to do well in melee against HI jump troops.

What you want is irrelevant. Go make a mod for lore-obsessed puritans if that is what you want. This is a balance mod that aims to provide game play that is sufficiently fair for serious competitive play. The mod makers want to make a balance-oriented mod, and that is what they are doing. You will never change anything by bitching about lore.

what kind of argument is that anyway: "I dont want them to do well against jump troops". Well shit what you want is completely irrelevant because thats not what the game is balanced around.

Oddnerd wrote:

Yabbaman wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:All the more reason not to remove their power melee damage and be forced to compensate with an additional ~7 dps per model to keep them effective against HI armour jump troops.

I don't want them to do well in melee against HI jump troops.

What you want is irrelevant. Go play make a mod for lore-obsessed puritans if that is what you want. This is a balance mod that aims to provide game play that is sufficiently fair for serious competitive play. The mod makers want to make a balance-oriented mod, and that is what they are doing. You will never change anything by bitching about lore.

I am not into lore at all. Haven't read anything w40k, just played relics games. I am not really talking to you here btw, you trip too much on your own conceptions about balance and game design. These are ideas for the devs. They like 'em - good, not - no biggy.

OceansAteAlaska wrote:what kind of argument is that anyway: "I dont want them to do well against jump troops". Well shit what you want is completely irrelevant because thats not what the game is balanced around.

That was the argument in the op you dumb fuck. Said it wasn't a balance proposal though, but some morons just can't read and comprehend a single line of text.

I dont know why you dont understand that everything youre suggesting would be a change in balance and thus a balance proposal. Stop insulting people and think before you speak.

OceansAteAlaska wrote:I dont know why you dont understand that everything youre suggesting would be a change in balance and thus a balance proposal. Stop insulting people and think before you speak.

Don't bother.

you have literally no arguments at all

OceansAteAlaska wrote:you have literally no arguments at all

Of course I do. My arguments (for the high skill players to evaluate) are:

1) It doesn't look right. This obviously concerns game design aesthetics.
2) Most of their utility comes from abilities, so maybe they could do away with power melee. A balance argument, but I don't lay much weight on it.

Plus, some people, who are really good at this game, like Torpid for instance, think that IG is OP. So I create a topic in the Balance section of the forums and see what the community have to say, mind you of course.

I say we screw the shotguns, just give Catachans some big ol' Bowie Knifes as their main weapon and let them be the melee troop they've always been destined to be!