Important balance stuff
Posted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 7:58 pm
It should be pretty clear by now that some things just reek of over-performance. These will be the things I list first.
After I am done listing said things, I will give my take on how I think some changes could be made (in regards to said over-performing things) to promote diversity or fairness without making said "thing" completely useless. Later on, I will convert this list and add the many other minor things that could use some smaller less important tweaks.
#1) Flesh Hook.
#2) Feeder Tendrils.
#3) Channeling runes ---> banshees
#4) Internal balance of Chaos: Chaos Lord is superior to Sorc or Plague Champ
#5) Vindicare Assassin.
#6) Endless swarm and gaunt/gant T2-T3 exclusivity for hp increase being removed and upgrade costs.
#7) Focused warp blast cooldown.
#8) Banewolf call-in.
#9) Excrutiators.
#10) Spotters vs Catachans.
Ok, this is the primary list. Now I will elaborate on these things.
In regards to Flesh Hook:
This abillity has huge range, does model sniping damage (it has to be at least 150 because it kills a ranger in 1 shot) and worst of all, the distance of its pull is outrageous.
I feel like the obvious solution here is 2 fold. First, I feel like reducing the pull to a very minimal distance is a must have, and that second, the energy cost of fleshhook should be somewhere in the 60 range.
The reason I feel the energy cost of flesh hook should be higher as well is because it will indirectly give the LA's adrenal gland armor a reason to exist outside of using pheromones.
As an off-shoot of this, I would also change the price of the LA's adrenal gland armor to 100-20 down from 100-25.
In regards to Feeder Tendrils:
This wargear over-performs in every category you could put it into.
First problem I have is that it is power_melee, making it inherently better against the races that it already kicks so much ass against, namely SM, CSM, and GK. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS WARGEAR TO BE POWER_MELEE!!!
Second problem I have with this wargear is its price. There is absolutely no reason for this wargear to be cheaper that the other variants when it has 0 drawbacks and a superior damage type.
So basically, here are the options that I deem to be reasonable in response to this ridiculousness...
Option 1 would be to move feeder tendrils to T2 and increase its price to 120-30. This change would alleviate a huge portion of the stress that an LA can put on armies in t1 due to his "countering his counters" nature being interrupted.
Option 2 would be to increase the cost of feeder tendrils to 135-25, and change their damage type to sword_pvp or w/e it is.
I feel like either of these changes would also need to be paired with an adjustment to LA T1 wargear pricing like changing adrenal glands to 100-20 and also making toxin sacs 125-20.
In regards to Channeling runes:
This wargear is pretty awesome on ranged squads and stuff, very cool to see guardians hold up against heretics or w/e in melee, stuff like that. But when it comes time for banshees and this wargear, its just outlandishly stupid. It takes pure luck to kill even 1 of those banshee models and it takes very poor execution for the warlock player to not win a T1 engagement with this combination. My latest game against Toilalee is fantastic evidence to support this claim.
Ideally I would love if an exclusive modifier for banshees could be introduced that interacts with this wargear. It would be the most precise fix for the problem as we could limit the amount that banshees are healed to an acceptable level (which is only a bit lower than what it is right now).
If a modifier cannot be introduced, I think that the best way to keep this wargear in the realm of the reasonable would be to lower its range and duration slightly, but to compensate, then make the warlock weapon_knockback immune while channeling.
In regards to Internal balance of Chaos:
There are some key factors in this claim and no doubt, there will be some extreme disagreement on this one. Regardless, the stats are steadily pouring in and you can see for yourself.
Now, before I go on to make this into a giant essay (which this point alone could easily be made into) I will relate that this point on my balance list came from a very candid evening of gaming and conversation that I had with Noisy Elmo. Him and I are both prolific sorc players, and we both have very similar beliefs in that the chaos sorcerer has an extremely high skill ceiling; and that even when played at a 90% efficiency, the Chaos Lord is still better. We also feel that the Plague Champion, even when played at 95% efficiency, is still not as good as the Chaos Lord.
What are the key factors?
To be honest, there are too many. But here are some major things to consider:
-Ease of use. Its not just the chaos lord, its his worship and his globals too.
-T1 Pressure. Cannot be suppressed, very hard to knockback, has a built in melee counter, very killy with his gun (and has full range).
-Khorne worship. Yes, it does relate to ease of use a bit. But it also relates to utility. It is by far the most useful worship for retreat killing, vehicle support, tank chasing, etc!
-Chaos Lord globals. They are on par with the Sorc's, but the PC lags behind simply because plague of undeath is... crap.
-Wargear. All three chaos heroes struggle against vehicles, so it isn't like an inherent AV potential advantage lies with the sorc of PC. And please, before you say the plague fist is AV, think about what you are saying. The Chaos lord has superior wargear options compared to the other commanders and a lot of this lies in the strength of his economy (due to his insane ability to pressure and bleed) which enables him to invest more freely. Consider that the combi-flamer is a super sniping hand-held that comes with a mild anti-blob and anti-garrison. Sorc and PC can only attain 1 of those attributes per-wargear. LTGB is basically better than dark flames or noxious cloud and it comes on a 150-30 (almost) no-brainer wargear. Blood Maul comes with crazy crowd control which stuns, meaning it is by definition better than the CC options that sorc (chains of torment is very easily countered in non isolated engagements) and pc have, especially once elite infantry are on the scene. The only gear that wins points for the sorc when stacked against the CL is the tome of subjugation, vestements of the warp, and warp rift. The PC has only 1 wargear that would be considered better than CL gear and that is the bile spewer.
-Shrines. The Chaos Lord and Plague Champ both have great shrines, (I consider the CL one to be the best still because +10% damage for chaos units is definitely significant) but the Chaos Sorcerer shrine is just so much worse.
Now... What to do about this???
That is a super hard question obviously. But I think adjusting just a few things would go a long way in improving the internal balance.
-Make nurgle worship more useful. It doesn't affect vehicles and it doesn't have a second perk for demons. I find this to be completely unacceptable. There are any number of options here that have been listed in many different threads, and picking one of them is the best course of action.
-Make tzeentch shrines have a different effect other than -10% damage received or adjust the doom bolts that it shoots. The Sorc has problems with elite melee units and vehicles, thus, I would either have the tzeentch shrine aura changed to a weapon_knockback immune aura with no damage reduction OR make the doombolts snare vehicles that hit their AOE.
-Combi-flamer utility needs to be reduced. This weapon simply trumps anything the Sorc of PC can do in T1.
-Grant the Sorcerer and Plague Champion some much needed situational solutions by buffing the plague sword with a reduced cost, and buffing the icon of tzeentch with a better effect.
In regards to the Vindicare Assassin:
This guy really puts the cherry on the cake for a GK race that got a lot of well deserved buffs. But the problem is that he does quite a bit too much for the minimal cost that he comes out of the gate at. As stated previously in other threads, he completely negates light vehicle play against GK, and previously, this was GK's greatest weakness next to countering tanks.
For the first in a series of adjustments to the VA, I would highly recommend that he comes with an increased base cost, such that he costs at least 45 power to start building.
In regards to endless swarm:
This is pretty black and white here. The cheap reinforcing paired with increased performance per tier is actually ending up to be quite impossible to deal with. Pheromones or a broodnest and you have, relatively speaking, a no-win situation. Somethings gotta give.
I would recommend a slight reduction in the scaling of gaunts/gants.
Also, on the topic of gaunts/gants, I find it abhorrent that the toxin sacs upgrade only costs 50-15, and yet the adrenal gland for hormagants costs 75-15. Not only should these prices be switched, but I also feel that toxin sacs has always been an upgrade worthy of 20 power, even if it needs to come with a slight range buff to the ability.
In regards to the "focused warp blast" ability cooldown:
Again, this is a completely black and white issue. It comes off cooldown immediately after the snare is done. This ability also has massive range and can be used to snipe commanders even worse than kinetic shot because it doesn't do friendly fire, AND it does a nice chunk of damage.
Flat out, this ability needs a longer cooldown for sure.
In regards to the Banewolf call-in:
The recent reduction in red cost was surely to promote the use of a unit that wasn't seen in a while. But what actually has been done here has brought back to light the fact that this light tank is a beast and shouldn't be so much easier to get than warpspiders or kommandos. 150 red is just too accessible. If 200 is too high, then let us try 175. The only other fix I can see that is fair would be to make it a bit more expensive so that it truly becomes a tech stalling unit that you sacrifice to get a hold of.
In regards to Excrutiators:
This is a black and white issue. The wargear only costs 140-20 and it is the ultimate combo tool. Big range, long snare, and now its not even channeling. This wargear needs to be reverted back to channeling without a doubt. It simply isn't fair for the Inq to eliminate your most valuable squad at the very beginning of every T2.5 engagement by comboing excruiators and manti (or w/e), especially while she is already off causing trouble somewhere else instead of channeling and being vulnerable.
In regards to spotters vs catachans:
Ok so I had a very productive brainstorming session with Torpid about this one. Basically, the problem here is that catachans are a utility unit, and so are spotters. Spotters just happen to be way more effective and push chans into a spot where they are a 60 power unit that doesn't get much done.
Long story short, here is the solution we came up with:
Catachans are adapted to make them more combat capable, but a little less utility.
Changes are as such:
-catachans lose 1 member, hp and damage is spread over the rest
-ol' reliable damage is slightly nerfed on vanilla catachan squad
-demo man buffs ol' reliable damage to a value slightly higher than what it is currently
-IED energy cost increased to 80, cooldown 60 seconds
-T2 Sargeant increases catachan squad shotgun and melta range by 4 (or could give them fotm, or could give them slightly increased ranged damage)
Please keep commentary organized so I can update stuff effectively.
After I am done listing said things, I will give my take on how I think some changes could be made (in regards to said over-performing things) to promote diversity or fairness without making said "thing" completely useless. Later on, I will convert this list and add the many other minor things that could use some smaller less important tweaks.
#1) Flesh Hook.
#2) Feeder Tendrils.
#3) Channeling runes ---> banshees
#4) Internal balance of Chaos: Chaos Lord is superior to Sorc or Plague Champ
#5) Vindicare Assassin.
#6) Endless swarm and gaunt/gant T2-T3 exclusivity for hp increase being removed and upgrade costs.
#7) Focused warp blast cooldown.
#8) Banewolf call-in.
#9) Excrutiators.
#10) Spotters vs Catachans.
Ok, this is the primary list. Now I will elaborate on these things.
In regards to Flesh Hook:
This abillity has huge range, does model sniping damage (it has to be at least 150 because it kills a ranger in 1 shot) and worst of all, the distance of its pull is outrageous.
I feel like the obvious solution here is 2 fold. First, I feel like reducing the pull to a very minimal distance is a must have, and that second, the energy cost of fleshhook should be somewhere in the 60 range.
The reason I feel the energy cost of flesh hook should be higher as well is because it will indirectly give the LA's adrenal gland armor a reason to exist outside of using pheromones.
As an off-shoot of this, I would also change the price of the LA's adrenal gland armor to 100-20 down from 100-25.
In regards to Feeder Tendrils:
This wargear over-performs in every category you could put it into.
First problem I have is that it is power_melee, making it inherently better against the races that it already kicks so much ass against, namely SM, CSM, and GK. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS WARGEAR TO BE POWER_MELEE!!!
Second problem I have with this wargear is its price. There is absolutely no reason for this wargear to be cheaper that the other variants when it has 0 drawbacks and a superior damage type.
So basically, here are the options that I deem to be reasonable in response to this ridiculousness...
Option 1 would be to move feeder tendrils to T2 and increase its price to 120-30. This change would alleviate a huge portion of the stress that an LA can put on armies in t1 due to his "countering his counters" nature being interrupted.
Option 2 would be to increase the cost of feeder tendrils to 135-25, and change their damage type to sword_pvp or w/e it is.
I feel like either of these changes would also need to be paired with an adjustment to LA T1 wargear pricing like changing adrenal glands to 100-20 and also making toxin sacs 125-20.
In regards to Channeling runes:
This wargear is pretty awesome on ranged squads and stuff, very cool to see guardians hold up against heretics or w/e in melee, stuff like that. But when it comes time for banshees and this wargear, its just outlandishly stupid. It takes pure luck to kill even 1 of those banshee models and it takes very poor execution for the warlock player to not win a T1 engagement with this combination. My latest game against Toilalee is fantastic evidence to support this claim.
Ideally I would love if an exclusive modifier for banshees could be introduced that interacts with this wargear. It would be the most precise fix for the problem as we could limit the amount that banshees are healed to an acceptable level (which is only a bit lower than what it is right now).
If a modifier cannot be introduced, I think that the best way to keep this wargear in the realm of the reasonable would be to lower its range and duration slightly, but to compensate, then make the warlock weapon_knockback immune while channeling.
In regards to Internal balance of Chaos:
There are some key factors in this claim and no doubt, there will be some extreme disagreement on this one. Regardless, the stats are steadily pouring in and you can see for yourself.
Now, before I go on to make this into a giant essay (which this point alone could easily be made into) I will relate that this point on my balance list came from a very candid evening of gaming and conversation that I had with Noisy Elmo. Him and I are both prolific sorc players, and we both have very similar beliefs in that the chaos sorcerer has an extremely high skill ceiling; and that even when played at a 90% efficiency, the Chaos Lord is still better. We also feel that the Plague Champion, even when played at 95% efficiency, is still not as good as the Chaos Lord.
What are the key factors?
To be honest, there are too many. But here are some major things to consider:
-Ease of use. Its not just the chaos lord, its his worship and his globals too.
-T1 Pressure. Cannot be suppressed, very hard to knockback, has a built in melee counter, very killy with his gun (and has full range).
-Khorne worship. Yes, it does relate to ease of use a bit. But it also relates to utility. It is by far the most useful worship for retreat killing, vehicle support, tank chasing, etc!
-Chaos Lord globals. They are on par with the Sorc's, but the PC lags behind simply because plague of undeath is... crap.
-Wargear. All three chaos heroes struggle against vehicles, so it isn't like an inherent AV potential advantage lies with the sorc of PC. And please, before you say the plague fist is AV, think about what you are saying. The Chaos lord has superior wargear options compared to the other commanders and a lot of this lies in the strength of his economy (due to his insane ability to pressure and bleed) which enables him to invest more freely. Consider that the combi-flamer is a super sniping hand-held that comes with a mild anti-blob and anti-garrison. Sorc and PC can only attain 1 of those attributes per-wargear. LTGB is basically better than dark flames or noxious cloud and it comes on a 150-30 (almost) no-brainer wargear. Blood Maul comes with crazy crowd control which stuns, meaning it is by definition better than the CC options that sorc (chains of torment is very easily countered in non isolated engagements) and pc have, especially once elite infantry are on the scene. The only gear that wins points for the sorc when stacked against the CL is the tome of subjugation, vestements of the warp, and warp rift. The PC has only 1 wargear that would be considered better than CL gear and that is the bile spewer.
-Shrines. The Chaos Lord and Plague Champ both have great shrines, (I consider the CL one to be the best still because +10% damage for chaos units is definitely significant) but the Chaos Sorcerer shrine is just so much worse.
Now... What to do about this???
That is a super hard question obviously. But I think adjusting just a few things would go a long way in improving the internal balance.
-Make nurgle worship more useful. It doesn't affect vehicles and it doesn't have a second perk for demons. I find this to be completely unacceptable. There are any number of options here that have been listed in many different threads, and picking one of them is the best course of action.
-Make tzeentch shrines have a different effect other than -10% damage received or adjust the doom bolts that it shoots. The Sorc has problems with elite melee units and vehicles, thus, I would either have the tzeentch shrine aura changed to a weapon_knockback immune aura with no damage reduction OR make the doombolts snare vehicles that hit their AOE.
-Combi-flamer utility needs to be reduced. This weapon simply trumps anything the Sorc of PC can do in T1.
-Grant the Sorcerer and Plague Champion some much needed situational solutions by buffing the plague sword with a reduced cost, and buffing the icon of tzeentch with a better effect.
In regards to the Vindicare Assassin:
This guy really puts the cherry on the cake for a GK race that got a lot of well deserved buffs. But the problem is that he does quite a bit too much for the minimal cost that he comes out of the gate at. As stated previously in other threads, he completely negates light vehicle play against GK, and previously, this was GK's greatest weakness next to countering tanks.
For the first in a series of adjustments to the VA, I would highly recommend that he comes with an increased base cost, such that he costs at least 45 power to start building.
In regards to endless swarm:
This is pretty black and white here. The cheap reinforcing paired with increased performance per tier is actually ending up to be quite impossible to deal with. Pheromones or a broodnest and you have, relatively speaking, a no-win situation. Somethings gotta give.
I would recommend a slight reduction in the scaling of gaunts/gants.
Also, on the topic of gaunts/gants, I find it abhorrent that the toxin sacs upgrade only costs 50-15, and yet the adrenal gland for hormagants costs 75-15. Not only should these prices be switched, but I also feel that toxin sacs has always been an upgrade worthy of 20 power, even if it needs to come with a slight range buff to the ability.
In regards to the "focused warp blast" ability cooldown:
Again, this is a completely black and white issue. It comes off cooldown immediately after the snare is done. This ability also has massive range and can be used to snipe commanders even worse than kinetic shot because it doesn't do friendly fire, AND it does a nice chunk of damage.
Flat out, this ability needs a longer cooldown for sure.
In regards to the Banewolf call-in:
The recent reduction in red cost was surely to promote the use of a unit that wasn't seen in a while. But what actually has been done here has brought back to light the fact that this light tank is a beast and shouldn't be so much easier to get than warpspiders or kommandos. 150 red is just too accessible. If 200 is too high, then let us try 175. The only other fix I can see that is fair would be to make it a bit more expensive so that it truly becomes a tech stalling unit that you sacrifice to get a hold of.
In regards to Excrutiators:
This is a black and white issue. The wargear only costs 140-20 and it is the ultimate combo tool. Big range, long snare, and now its not even channeling. This wargear needs to be reverted back to channeling without a doubt. It simply isn't fair for the Inq to eliminate your most valuable squad at the very beginning of every T2.5 engagement by comboing excruiators and manti (or w/e), especially while she is already off causing trouble somewhere else instead of channeling and being vulnerable.
In regards to spotters vs catachans:
Ok so I had a very productive brainstorming session with Torpid about this one. Basically, the problem here is that catachans are a utility unit, and so are spotters. Spotters just happen to be way more effective and push chans into a spot where they are a 60 power unit that doesn't get much done.
Long story short, here is the solution we came up with:
Catachans are adapted to make them more combat capable, but a little less utility.
Changes are as such:
-catachans lose 1 member, hp and damage is spread over the rest
-ol' reliable damage is slightly nerfed on vanilla catachan squad
-demo man buffs ol' reliable damage to a value slightly higher than what it is currently
-IED energy cost increased to 80, cooldown 60 seconds
-T2 Sargeant increases catachan squad shotgun and melta range by 4 (or could give them fotm, or could give them slightly increased ranged damage)
Please keep commentary organized so I can update stuff effectively.