Purgation Squad

[Forestradio]

First off, before I say anything about the change I want for these guys, let me tell a story:

Once upon a time, in the land of Green Tooth Gorge, a Grey Knight Brother Captain engaged a Lictor Alpha in battle. Deploying three squads of inquisitorial stormtroopers, the Brother Captain was forced back to his power farm due to the usual Lictor Alpha bullshit. There, a purgation squad and two inquisitorial stormtrooper squads engaged a warrior squad and two toxin sac termagaunts.

The Purgation Squad quickly used their "Purged by Fire" ability on the warriors, ensnaring them. The stormtroopers focused down the warriors, and were able to kill a grand total of 0 models by the time the snare wore off.

After the purgation were forced off by concentrated gaunt fire, the warriors jumped amongst the stormtroopers and forced them off as well.

I could go on, but I think you get the gist of this.

The point: Purgation do an atrocious job of countering melee units. They can counter pretty much one unit at a time, and that's only if they hit their snare perfectly. The suppression team of any other race instantly forces off the warriors and wins the engagement. A melee unit cannot simply walk forward into a suppression team the way it can into a purgation squad.

And yet purgation cost 50 more req than other suppression teams.

My proposed change:

Make the Purgation squad have only a single model with a flamer (like Noise Marines). Adjust the DPS values on the flamer and the courage damage it does accordingly. The other two marines can get stormbolters (10 piercing dps) and some kind of sword or halberd (15 normal melee dps).

Please note that purgation have 50 melee skill (no special attacks on other melee units). They also do 12 melee dps right now with their incinerators, so the sword/halberd is going to be for show rather than for anything else.

This change also would mean that purgation don't have to have all of their models all the time to be at full effectiveness.

Thoughts?

[Nurland]

Hmmm. Sounds kinda reasonable. Though imo purgs are really not comparable to set ups...


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[FiSH]

i'm assuming you still want psycannons on all three models?

[Torpid]

Yeah seems like a sound idea.

[Orkfaeller]

If they had only one heavy weapon, and the other two guys carried halberds / swords, how would they even stand out against all the other GK Squads?

The GK unit roster allready looks very same-y and blends far too much into eachother imho,

having all members with an underslung weapon makes purgations atleast somewhat diverse looking from all the other power armored units.

[ThongSong]

I had suggested this before. no one seemed to like it.

I think the problem is that purgs can only hit 1 squad with their regular attack. so if more than 1 melee squad rushes them, eg a hero and a squad, together, they're stuffed because they can only suppress one and a time.

also one thing I dont understand is that how a set up team can in theory force of a melee commander on their own, but a purgation squad needs stormtrooper focus fire support to get the same job done.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I've always found purgation to be a very awkward squad (from an enemy stand point). They can pour out some damage, but they're way too easy to counter. As it's been said, you can sort of engage in melee and they become useless - this can be said about Setup teams in general, but the only difference is that it's pretty damn easy in comparison.

I like the idea of making them load out a bit more similar in comparison to Noise Marines. They really do feel like they play a lot more like them anyway, so perhaps adjusting it so that sure, they can keep their Purged by Fire, but kind of make it so that they have a similar effect on ranged blobs as noise marines do - prevent range squads from shooting and using abilities?

[Lag]

1. You already have a ton of melee in the GK roster.
2. Try the Purgation squad against IG. Now imagine having that kind of damage output and that amount of bleed throughout the entire fight because only one model carries all the splash damage.
3. Why make Purgation squad if you already have a Strike Squad and Interceptors who can upgrade a single flamer? For the sole slow ability? The race is already too samey between it's squads.

[Kvek]

The slow ability is the only good thing on purgs though, and it's pretty lulz too

[Nuclear Arbitor]

some sort of aoe tweak should be all that is needed.

[Forestradio]

1. You already have a ton of melee in the GK roster.
2. Try the Purgation squad against IG. Now imagine having that kind of damage output and that amount of bleed throughout the entire fight because only one model carries all the splash damage.
3. Why make Purgation squad if you already have a Strike Squad and Interceptors who can upgrade a single flamer? For the sole slow ability? The race is already too samey between it's squads.

1. Except in T1 GK melee units rely solely on special attacks to win engagements. So basically it all depends if you are lucky or not. And one melee unit (interceptors) isn't a ton.

2. I have used Purgation vs IG. I don't see how my change would greatly affect that matchup very much, because a smart IG player will never let purgation get anywhere near his guardsmen (spotters and HWT). And purgation can't fire on the move.

3. Ever seen an interceptor squad with a flamer?
The strike squad flamer is crap compared to other races: costs 5 more power and can't fire on the move. The courage damage is does is horrendously bad.

[Bahamut]

i actually agree with lag on this one

[Lag]

1. Except in T1 GK melee units rely solely on special attacks to win engagements. So basically it all depends if you are lucky or not. And one melee unit (interceptors) isn't a ton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIql32SLBSM

2. I have used Purgation vs IG. I don't see how my change would greatly affect that matchup very much, because a smart IG player will never let purgation get anywhere near his guardsmen (spotters and HWT). And purgation can't fire on the move.

I suggest joining games with better players.

3. Ever seen an interceptor squad with a flamer?

Yes.

The strike squad flamer is crap compared to other races: costs 5 more power and can't fire on the move. The courage damage is does is horrendously bad.

a) Tacs are shit in melee, GM are shit in melee, Noise Marines are shit in melee so basically you have a squad which barely loses from upgraded Sluggas in melee, has a flamer, and still packs a punch with its standard ranged fire - and you are complaining?
b) Why does it have the flamer in the first place? If you want a flamer with Chaos you have to make Noise Marines. You can't just upgrade your CSM with flamers - same as you can't upgrade ASM with flamers. Not to mention that you already have a vast number of units you can make flamers on with GK (Purg, Interceptors, Dread and Termis). If you are really complaining about this then start by adding a plasma damage upgrade for Shootas in T1, a power melee upgrade on GM, range increase Cata upgrade option (because fuck diversity in your army roster, right?) and we can go on with this discussion.

[Torpid]

1. It's important to note that the strike squad perform pretty poorly in t2 which makes up for their great t1 pressure against both ranged and melee squads and their versatility due to the flamer upgrade.

2. I have used Purgation vs IG. I don't see how my change would greatly affect that matchup very much, because a smart IG player will never let purgation get anywhere near his guardsmen (spotters and HWT). And purgation can't fire on the move.

I suggest joining games with better players.

Or maybe you should learn how to play against GK? For a start unless you're LG then you shouldn't be getting catachans and as a result there should very little that purgation are doing to your army. All the IG heroes are fit to tie them up promptly, LC obviously needs his power sword and the inq her brazier/rosarius, the LG just gets his sarge. Spotters can also easily displace the purgation which often forces them off instantly due to their pitiful HP and low range. Also purgation do nothing against sentinels, which you should have two of in this MU.

3. Ever seen an interceptor squad with a flamer?

Yes.

Considering how fast IST bash and the fact that you can get a flamer for your ranged squad that shouldn't need to engage anything in melee post-t1, you should be very greatful when you see GKI with flamers.

The strike squad flamer is crap compared to other races: costs 5 more power and can't fire on the move. The courage damage is does is horrendously bad.

a) Tacs are shit in melee, GM are shit in melee, Noise Marines are shit in melee so basically you have a squad which barely loses from upgraded Sluggas in melee, has a flamer, and still packs a punch with its standard ranged fire - and you are complaining?
b) Why does it have the flamer in the first place? If you want a flamer with Chaos you have to make Noise Marines. You can't just upgrade your CSM with flamers - same as you can't upgrade ASM with flamers. Not to mention that you already have a vast number of units you can make flamers on with GK (Purg, Interceptors, Dread and Termis). If you are really complaining about this then start by adding a plasma damage upgrade for Shootas in T1, a power melee upgrade on GM, range increase Cata upgrade option (because fuck diversity in your army roster, right?) and we can go on with this discussion.

Well not having FOTM makes their flamer inherently inferior, nonetheless, it is justified by them having more melee competency. The tac flamer is more of a ranged counter than the strike squad one which performs better vs melee. Obviously the stike squad needs a flamer because it needs utility to make up for the fact it's dreadful in t2, besides the flamer on the interceptors are really a waste, it's like getting flamers on guardsmen, but even worse. So other the SS purgs are the only flamer unit in reality, which is akin to chaos - CSM don't get utility in their upgrades because they have those amazing specialised upgrades in t2.

"If you are really complaining about this..." Not sure what you're even talking about here.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

1. Except in T1 GK melee units rely solely on special attacks to win engagements. So basically it all depends if you are lucky or not. And one melee unit (interceptors) isn't a ton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIql32SLBSM

Not sure if the video was posted to reinforce the statement or to go against it - but it's worth noting that SS has also gone through several nerfs (if we look at Melee) including a health nerf and a decrease to special attack damage. Considering quiet a few of those fights were ridiculously close (i.e 7 hp sluggas, 11 on warriors - just as an example), having 15 hp/model decreased across the squad would make a big difference. Furthermore, there were quite a lot of instances were specials also made a bit of a difference so the small nerf to the special damage may also play a role. So I'm not sure if the video favors Radio's comment or not??

[Forestradio]

Strike Squad special attack damage and knockback strength and health have ALL been nerfed since that arena of judgement video. In return, they now cost 450 req (which they should have in the first place).

In fact, the only matchups i get strike squad in now are SM and IG because triple storms are much better with their burst dps and kiting with we are the hammer.
Not to mention that strike squad are a horrible scaling unit when compared to CSM and Tacs.

Let's compare tactical squad melee dps with a flamer to strike squad dps with a flamer:

Tac squad: 19*3=57

Strikesquad: 23*2 + 12= 58

So apparently tacs are "shit in melee" but strike squad are great based on a video made before they were nerfed. And the strike squad lose a halberd-wielding member when they upgrade to a flamer.

Strike squad with a flamer do a grand total of one more dps in melee than tacs with a flamer. Except they don't get the kraken bolts ability, and can't fire on the move. In return, they do a tiny bit of courage damage.


If you can't figure out how to counter purgation with IG, then here:

1. Artillery spotters disrupt them and knock models TOWARDS the IG blob so they lose a model before they get back up and instantly retreat.

2. Heavy Weapons Team. 'Nough said here.

3. Go double sentinels. And play inquisitor, who counters the entire GK army in T2.

As a side note because "all GK units look the same and it's not okay" well fuck that. They're marines from the same chapter: of course they are going to look the same.

"I suggest joining games with better players."

Right. Because playing Dark Riku's Lictor alpha and watching my purgation completely underperform vs warriors and hormagaunts isn't a concern.

[Dark Riku]

Just wanna mention that you can't disregard tacs not being able to perform specials while strikes can in your comparison.

Where did you get those Strike squad damage values from by the way? Because I can't find them right away and don't feel like looking them up at the source :p

[Cheah18]

I agree they need an improvement but I think it only needs to be a slight one. I'd make them more tanky because this would complement their short range and make more sense as they are really weak despite having power armour. They should be able to take some punishment if they are going to march up to the enemy and flame them.

[Forestradio]

Just wanna mention that you can't disregard tacs not being able to perform specials while strikes can in your comparison.

Which is why I said that they rely on luck to win melee engagements.

Where did you get those Strike squad damage values from by the way? Because I can't find them right away and don't feel like looking them up at the source :p

They aren't on the wiki. The dps values are only show in the in-game upgrade description.

[Lulgrim]

http://www.dawnofwar.info/test.php

[Caeltos]

What's the ig valk attack plane machineguns ones?

[ThongSong]

I used to not get strike squads in favour of 3 ISTs, but I've reverted back to getting SSs just because of the durability they offer. And I do think they scale well with their justicar in tier 2. Their energy burst ability is great for helping to deal with GK's main crippling weakness, which is against strong melee heroes. Energy burst that hero, and give your purggies with psycannons and double storms a chance to focus them down. And it really screws over the commissar lord or FC's energy shield too

[Torpid]

Yeah, I'll give you that, the only time I think in 1v1 it's justified to get that SS justicar is when they have a hero with a shield or is otherwise very energy dependent.

[Lulgrim]

What's the ig valk attack plane machineguns ones?

Sounds like an unused weapon.

[Orkfaeller]

Oh god, could we have like CoH(2) styled strafing runs?^^

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i hope not; the only one i consider at all balanced is the suppression run and that shuts down a huge area of the map.

[Tex]

I just used 2x purgation squads last night and it felt like they do a whopping total of nothing. Can I find some info on their psy-cannon stats somewhere? Right now they just feel so inferior to alternate options... although I must say I need to play many more games with GK to be sure.

[Forestradio]

I just used 2x purgation squads last night and it felt like they do a whopping total of nothing. Can I find some info on their psy-cannon stats somewhere? Right now they just feel so inferior to alternate options... although I must say I need to play many more games with GK to be sure.

pyscannons do 14 explosive dps per model with splash damage, so a full squad does around 42 dps. The splash damage increases as the target gets closer to the pyscannon (just like autocannons).

They cannot fire on the move, but their ability "Astral Aim" increases the squad's line of sight and weapon range by 20 % (not entirely sure on this one) for a certain amount of time (somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds I believe).

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... _psycannon

[crazyman64335]

I just used 2x purgation squads last night and it felt like they do a whopping total of nothing. Can I find some info on their psy-cannon stats somewhere? Right now they just feel so inferior to alternate options... although I must say I need to play many more games with GK to be sure.

their alternate options being? The VA?

[Caeltos]

The Rhino should ease out some general transitional plays from T1 that might contain some purgations involved. You get some more general direct-fire // pressure potential that the Purgation might lack, and both the units themselves can transition into AV options later-on.

The Rhino will technically be a "mini-tank", assuming we can get the mounted gunner to work. This might lead into some re-adjustment of the Rhino cost effiency, but it's at least something that I'm pre-cautious about and aware about.

Nontheless, Purgations have felt abit flat, due to their dps drops off quite substantially since their AV-damage is based on quantity models, rather than a single entity, similiar to Tankbustas in that regard. I think the transperancy between the dps model losses iwth the squad count interferes with their general purpose at times, and they often need to find themselves near the frontlines to do their task, making them a hot-target to take down, and since they don't have the sustain of other misc. anti-AV (up-front) units, like Missile Tacs, they drop faster then others.

It's something I'll fiddle, but I'm mostly just abit eye-brow over the Psycanon performance in general.