Ogryns. Are they filling adequately their role?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

As the title says.

I have the feeling they aren't filling adequately their role as line breaker/damage sponge squad. The have SHI armour, that's true, but at the same time have relatively low HP per model, so any Plasma weapon is going to shred them, and they are expensive to reinforce (in fact as expensive as a Ork Nobz reinforce). Also they can be suppressed and they can be knockable by any knockback type. Without the Bone'ead leader their performance is highly reduced.

Not mention the new power_melee/plasma damage squad added in ELITE in T2 and T3, which makes the Ogryns a even more situational squad.

The problem is they have very high melee dps. The vanilla Ogryns do as much dps as a Dread without the splash damage, (105 vs 100) and his Bone'head leader do 50 heavy_melee dps by himself. And also have nasty combos with the IG commanders. So give them a buff without reduce their melee damage would make them a T2 Nobz squad.

To help to their linebreaker/damage sponge role, I suggest increase the health per member (50 hp, for example, including the Bone'ead leader) and reduce their melee dps per member.

[Lag]

They were kinda always situational for me. I think they are fine as they are.

[Torpid]

The existence of spotters has meant that ogryns are significantly stronger since suppression and plasma devs/blastmasters are much easier to dislodge. You also can't forget the excellent synergy oggies have with all the heroes. Silently, bionic eye, aura of discipline (which heals stuff based on models in proximity, so if LC+ogryns are linebreaking it heals ogryns ~200hp per burst), vox operator, LG nade launcher and the anti-suppression/kb armours. I think ogryns do greatly.

I think nerfing their damage would be a mistake because I don't believe their role is solely to sponge damage. I find myself often using them to counter-initiate or as a good way to pressure an enemy walker or just their army in general with melee. I'm not sure how much weaker you want their melee to be but such a change is only going to make ogryns useless against tyranids/SM/chaos and OP against eldar/orks. I'm not keen.

[sk4zi]

imho Ogryns are very good.

its true that they are very expensive but its also very hard to play against.
once ogryns come on the field the enemy needs quite different counters.
Suddenly meele, SHI and high HP models.
it really changes the way to deal with IG.
for this reason i think they need to be an impact also on the IG players side.

the problem that there are so many new counters to HI/SHI is not an IG problem actually
quite funny to read that IG is sad about this
what should say SM with their terms?

actually i would like them to be piercing damage

heavy meele is very rare theese days and in my opinion its ridiculous that IG of all races has Heavy melee at t2

[Nurland]

heavy meele is very rare theese days and in my opinion its ridiculous that IG of all races has Heavy melee at t2

Well as IG don't have a walker and Gryns cost a fuckton I don't see any issues with Ogryns doing heavy melee. Also, every other race has heavy melee in T2

actually i would like them to be piercing damage

what exactly would you like to be piercing?

quite funny to read that IG is sad about this

This topic was not made by an IG player. Nikhel mains Chaos afaik. The only two IG players to commentate the topic are Torpid and Lag who both said Ogryns are fine atm.

[sk4zi]

heavy meele is very rare theese days and in my opinion its ridiculous that IG of all races has Heavy melee at t2

Well as IG don't have a walker and Gryns cost a fuckton I don't see any issues with Ogryns doing heavy melee. Also, every other race has heavy melee in T2

you mean dreads right?
i allways felt the surrogate for walkers for IG is the manticore
but even if you mean them, make ogryns cost 120 power and remove their retreat (no just kidding)
ig is just quite different to the other Races which is cool and shoudlnt be changed.
it was allways a huge benefit in this game, that the races have all their own mechanics.
for IG a melee squad is very extraordinary and so it just should be "hard to get"

actually i would like them to be piercing damage

what exactly would you like to be piercing?

their melee damage, what else?
if they should be linebrakers and not a DD unit, they dont need heavy melee
and in my opinion IG can also deal quite good with vehicles even without ogryns.

quite funny to read that IG is sad about this

This topic was not made by an IG player. Nikhel mains Chaos afaik. The only two IG players to commentate the topic are Torpid and Lag who both said Ogryns are fine atm.

hmm so i am wrong with that, ok.
but that doesnt change the fact, that this is an IG suggestion - i never wrote "player"
i just dont know what this should tell me exept of calling me illiterate.
thanks

edit:
last but not least, why didnt you answer to my actual post but only the teasings?

[Nurland]

Why should any unit do piercing damage in melee? I mean no unit does piercing in melee atm... It would be terribly lousy melee damage type for the most parts tbh.

Manticores the substitute for walkers? Well that is an interesting take... The only similarity i see with walkers is the vehicle armor. Imo manti is an artilley piece more akin to pdevs, d-cannons etc.

And what was the actual post/question? I seem to have missed that.

[Sub_Zero]

Spotters are just a god's send really. They make ogryn play very viable. Catachans can disrupt things too but spotters can disable ranged weapons and disrupt things.

I think ogryns are too expensive. The first thing to deal with is their leader's cost. They rely super heavily on him. Without him ogryns are bad for fighting. And their leader's cost is 100 / 30. As far as I know there are no other leaders that cost more than 25 power. Make some adjustments please. Another thing to deal with is their reinforcement cost. 75 /15. That is too high again. Nobz' reinforcement cost is the same. But ogryns nowhere near as good as nobz. 75 / 12 would be adequate. If we make these adjustments then it won't be so terribly bad to lose models/leaders.

About their combat performance. Ogryns got a lot of disadvantages compared to walkers (do I need to name them?) and they got some advantages compared to walkers. I would say that they have more disadvantages than advantages. But I really don't know what to suggest, what buffs they could get. I have been thinking about ogryns' combat performance quite a lot but I haven't come to any conclusion about buffing their combat capabilities. The only things that I find unbalanced are their leader's cost and model reinforcing. And I would really love to see them fixed.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with oggys atm. i use them almost every game as lord commisar since they synergize so well. they are a game saver. they need no buffs or no nerfs and my lc stats say so =)

[Torpid]

You've also got to remember quite a while ago ogryns got a buff so that they would regenerate HP faster when in combat.

I wouldn't like to adjust their damage or their HP, the only thing I'de change is making their bone 'ead 25 power. 100/30 for a leader is brutally expensive even if it has 600SHIhp, let's face it these guys (ogryns) are often spearheading armies with pretty much no melee support bar the IG heroes.

[Sub_Zero]

You've also got to remember quite a while ago ogryns got a buff so that they would regenerate HP faster when in combat.

In elite mode? No, it cannot be true. I decline to trust you. I can say for sure that vanguard veterans have become more stubborn (health regeneration) when in melee combat.

[greenelite]

Tough as they are, I rarely find myself using Ogryns to initiate fights on account of their unforgiving reinforcement cost and vulnerability to KB and suppression. I mainly use them to counter jump troops and ranged walkers. If the enemy is dug in, just use Manticores.
I don't see how a 450/90 T2 unit that can be stopped by a T1 setup team without the help of a hero or dedicated setup counters can be seen as a line breaker.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Well, almost all the IG opinions are unanimous.

At the moment, in which matchups are useful? Because half Chaos T2 is going to obliterate them with Inferno/Power Melee weapons. The only commander which could be usefull are against Chaos Sorcerer, but he has his tricks to control them.

TM will shred them with Mark Target + Overcharge combo. FC will make Ogryns stand in their asses, but at least you can force him to buy the Thunder Hammer instead of the Powerfist. Apo could have a tough time against Ogryns.

Against GK aren't a good choice, IMHO. Eldar have now Dark Reapers with Inferno_pvp damage, so aren't no more a bad choice against IG, and with their High damage + suppression effect, that Ogryns are going to be melted. Against KN could be good, but the Warboss are going to kick their asses non-stop, and the Mekboy are going to perma-suppress them with their Deff gun. And against nids... Could be mistaken, but a Nid player could laugh about Ogryns having in their hand the Double Termagaunt Snare + Zoanthrope combo, the Genestealers or the Tyrant Guard (with support) or if he have pimp his commander with Plasma/Power_melee/Anti melee wargear.

Maybe I am wrong since I don't main IG, but I see them too much situacional (even with that great commander + Ogryns combo)

[Torpid]

Double ogryns + spotters > chaos T2.

Ogryns are exceptionally useful in the SM MU as a form of counter-initiation vs ASM, for forcing investments on tactical marines which are then countered by the plasma gun guardsmen you were always going to get as well as the leman you intend to get in t3 and also for countering assault cannon dreadnoughts.

Ogryns are as strong vs eldar as wraithguard are vs IG. This entire MU whenever I play either revolves around a WG spam vs AK Stormtrooper spam or a WG spam vs Ogryn spam. Dark reapers don't do much to counter anything because they just aren't useful vs anything other than the ogryns/sentinels economically and you're just letting me get some AK ST or t3, which eldar should not let IG do!

Ogryns are fantastic against any ork foolish enough not to purchase stormboyz or an ork who decides to go lootas/2x shootas or 3x shoota in t1. The deffgun can suppress ogryns as can the lootas and even the shootas with AWD but the ogryn's SHI soaks up so much of the dps it is absurd. The deffgun really does very little to ogryns, not to mention where are the spotters! Battery pack, dakka dakka dakka and stormboyz would be more optimal vs IG than the deffgun. Ogryn's charge negates UYC quite well. I would actually say the KN is the best vs ogryns because they are affected by AWD so the stun bomb is super easy to land. Weirdboy vomit + stunbomb, yeah, those ogryns aren't doing much except dying to painboy sluggas. Just another reason the KN butchers IG.

Ogryns do really well vs a nid who goes for a piercing ranged blob, even if they throw in one zoanthrope often with spotter support it really doesn't matter. Of course if you get the ogryns before they get their t2 choice then they should get genestealers because genes really do shred ogryns, but if you have the tech lead vs the nid then just get AK ST and tech to an executioner leman (but how do you have the tech lead vs nids???).

Vs GK you are gonna open with 2x sentinels which forces at the very least 3x IST. That means you the IG get the tech-lead. Rush ogryns + fully upgraded guardsmen and a medic bunker and you will have such a more economically efficient composition it is ridiculous, just don't overcommit ogryns there, rather use them for counter-initiation as soon as the sweet spot of them having no power melee squads/plasma guns ends.

Don't get ogryns in an IG mirror though.

[Sub_Zero]

Double ogryns + spotters > chaos T2.

I will get noise marines and a khorne dread. Bloodrage, then cacophony on your ogryns. They won't even touch my dread and will be turned into a bloody mess. And that is possible for tzeentch marines to avoid artillery shells. They will unleash their op-damage on your ogryns. Chaos is the last race that will be suffering from ogryns. Chaos got tons of stuff to murder heavy/super heavy armors.

Don't get ogryns in an IG mirror though.

Ehm, and what if my opponent has 2x flamer guardsmen? Flamer guardsmen are viable in IG mirror matches. And even if he doesn't have them so what? Spotters won't do the job?

Ogryns can be owned badly by orks. Just get a "very weird why he doesn't get fixed OP-boy". And that is 400 / 40 to deal with your 500 (+) / 120 unit.

[Broodwich]

If they are supported by any hero capabilities they are kinda ridiculous. I think I took on an entire army when I executed one of them with inspire somethingorother. It was pretty hilarious.
Inq has camo, LG has kb immunity/dr or suppression immunity and heal, thats not including globals. They dont have a jump so its pretty much a given you need to help them somehow. If they could just charge in that would be retarded

[Kvek]

Don't get ogryns in an IG mirror though.

Ehm, and what if my opponent has 2x flamer guardsmen? Flamer guardsmen are viable in IG mirror matches. And even if he doesn't have them so what? Spotters won't do the job?

2x flamer guardsmen is not a viable tactic in any MU, it's the worst investment you can ever make it doesn't scale, it doesn't do crap to sentinels and it forces your guardsmen to go closer and get raped by the IG hero. The enemy will be also in a tech advantage.

[Torpid]

Double ogryns + spotters > chaos T2.

I will get noise marines and a khorne dread. Bloodrage, then cacophony on your ogryns. They won't even touch my dread and will be turned into a bloody mess. And that is possible for tzeentch marines to avoid artillery shells. They will unleash their op-damage on your ogryns. Chaos is the last race that will be suffering from ogryns. Chaos got tons of stuff to murder heavy/super heavy armors.

If you attempt to do that then I'll just kill you at range with plasma guns+hero (inferno pistol on Inq, aura LC behind GM) and you can't do anything? Not to mention khorne dreads aren't hurting missle sentinels or a las-hwt and staying t2 vs chaos is pretty viable I find. Ogryns have always been extremely strong vs chaos, forcing TCSM vs them is always a nice thing.

Don't get ogryns in an IG mirror though.

Ehm, and what if my opponent has 2x flamer guardsmen? Flamer guardsmen are viable in IG mirror matches. And even if he doesn't have them so what? Spotters won't do the job?

If you have double flamer then I'm going to have double sentinels + catachans.

Ogryns can be owned badly by orks. Just get a "very weird why he doesn't get fixed OP-boy". And that is 400 / 40 to deal with your 500 (+) / 120 unit.

Even with a weirdboy sluggaz alone aren't really sufficient to deal with ogryns if you support them properly, that said, if they have stormboyz or are the warboss then yeah ogryns are going to be really inefficient, but that's why I specified only getting the ogryns if they don't get storms.

[Sub_Zero]

Oh, I just get mad when you (guys) start such discussions.
A: I throw a grenade to your position!
B: But I catch it and I send it back to you.
A: And I deploy a mega shield and this grenade detonates doing no damage to me, frags of that grenade fly back to you.
B: But I make my skin as hard as a stone wall and I block these frags.
This can be endless.
You counter me, I counter you, you counter me, I counter you..... Who fails to do it he loses.
And now let's get back to ogryns.

[Torpid]

No, that's not what is happening here because my retorts are all wholly viable considering my openings based on the timing of when you will get your shizz out. You can come play some 1v1 with maaahhhh if ya don't believe me.

[saltychipmunk]

i dislike the ogryns alot.

my train of thought when getting them is that i want a beefy unit to cover the obvious squeamishness of Catachans and guardsmen .

but for 90 power .... them ogryns they bleed quite easily.

they have an odd mesh of atttributes,

they have alot of life , but then their armor type in t2 destroys them.
they are melee heavy but ig really have no issue with tanks and terminators tear ogryns apart.

their ability is nice, but it affects friendly's so this separates them out from the rest of your army making them easy targets to focus down on the initial fight.


on top of that they just dont seem to do alot of damage, they are terrible for chasing units without buffs from the lord general nade launcher.

[Torpid]

Ogryns aren't 90 power, they're 550 req, 120 power, due to the bone 'ead being 100% necessary, they cost more than a dreadnought and they bleed a hell of a lot more. This is their only real downfall though, the bleed, for that reason dropping the bone 'ead down to 25 power I feel would be justified, but any other buff no, just no.

If you use silently on ogryns then infiltrate them behind a suppression-team so that the team has to retreat through the ogryns back to the base and then charge it is a 100% guaranteed kill on the entire set-up team. This works magnificently vs eldar.

Ogryns do tactical marine dps in ranged stance and have 100% FOTM so even when they aren't moving at speed 8 with their charge they still do lots to retreat kill.

Charging ogryns with inspire determination move at speed 11 and deal 240HM DPS.

You can also trick people into over-committing to fights by allowing your ogryns to go down to 1/2 models only to sprint your general over and drop reinforcements via the vox operator, when they come out hit charge, bam, squad wipe.

Not to mention the retreat killing capabilities of any ability that causes KB on demand, especially when ogryns can be used to counter-initiate or come out of infiltration (meaning their appearance is unexpected, leading to the enemy staying in longer than they need to).

Their armour type destroys them in t2? Are you joking with me? T2 SHI is brutal when you consider the price of it's counters and everything that ogryns do for you.

[Raffa]

Ogryns are great. Bleed happens because they are infantry so it's a bit of a No Shit Sherlock point.

All 3 heroes have ways to support the Ogryns: as mentioned Silently is absolutely amazing against Eldar, as you are unlikely to be facing rangers as IG unless you have gone for multiple sentinels. Inspire determination lets you chase into base like sluggas can in retail (remember the double damage will cancel out the base defence modifier) - For those of you who never experienced it, that tactic allows early T2 baserapes and arguably makes Orks the second best race behind Tyranids in retail. And ofc let's not forget the Valkyrie drop which is a Call Da Boyz for IG that doesn't cost red. And that's just one example for each hero. There is so much room for creativity with these guys. This thread reminds me of the brief time when Sorc was declared OP because he allows creative plays.

Like the Sorc, they are "pro" and I can testify to some practically "bullshit" synergies I have seen pulled off with them. However, this is the good kind of "bullshit" play, i.e. that if you have the skill to pull it off (or just the balls to try it), it deserves big rewards.

Very strong, versatile unit that rewards you well for synergising.

Leave them as they are.

[Sub_Zero]

Cost adjustments should happen. Don't leave them as they are.

[Sub_Zero]

Actually I have no idea why ogryns cost so much while they bleed you horribly and lose their combat efficiency during the battle and have weaknesses that all infantry has. Tyrant guard costs 400 / 55. That is so fucking cheap. And it can restores its health on the field and doesn't bleed you at all. I talk about tyrant guard because it is the closest of all walkers to ogryns.

The only ogryns' advantages are that they can retreat from any trouble, they can be supported by some abilities, they can chase any target. And they have tons of disadvantages compared to walkers.

[Torpid]

Well you have a point there, but I feel that is more of the TG being too cheap than ogryns being too expensive. Do bear in mind that due to their nature as an expensive bulky melee unit they are going to perform significantly worse on team games than 1v1.

[Sub_Zero]

You know when I discuss about balance I don't keep in mind some huge engagements in team games. I said that before and I won't tire to repeat that. I prefer to fight 1 v 1 in team games (2 v 2 mode can be considered as a team game also).

TG needs cost adjustments. That is for sure.

[Caeltos]

TG needs cost adjustments. That is for sure.

That's not neccasarily true. Because if you adjust the economical parts of the tyranid infrastructure on let's say, the ground-up Tier 1. (Let's say just global upkeep increases/upgrade cost increases to make it more clear) , you'll ineveitably also indirectly influence the performance and the cost effiency of the remaining T2/T3 roster.

[SirSid]

I personaly like ogryns. They fill a very nice role in the IG army , and for my play style they make the IG race almost playable ( i fucking hate them IG fags ).

They may not be a go to unit for evrey match up but they sure can be nice for what they do. I also have to agree that the spoters makes them MUCH stronger they really preform nice with this unit around, and for a AC dread or other long range dreads they are a win win buy.

I find i ususaly losse a model with them in most engagments however dew to the fact that they keep the rest of my army from bleeding , in most cases at all , i do not mind it to much. And having a power bleed for IG is not a big deal , I ususaly have a massive power stock pile in t3 with IG and staying t2 and having a power bleed is just fine IMO. Now having alot of power in t3 is a good thing for IG lemmon tanks are not cheap and a BB if u can manage to get the rec for it is a massive power sink however if u have a long t2 ( witch most IG players ususaly do ) u shold still be fine> getting ogryns risks a power bleed to keep u from t3 , this is a good thing as it actualy forces IG play to have hard choices. Staying t2 with IG is sill a option in eliet mod but not as atractive as it was in retail, u can have a snowball effect rendering your units less usefull when going up against t3 armys so u have to make a call if u think u can end the game t2.

I like the unit whare it is and for my play style they are very nice unit. The only complaint i have about them is the fact that offten the leader dies first however this is a topic for a diffrent thread ATM it would seem.

[SirSid]

Actually I have no idea why ogryns cost so much while they bleed you horribly and lose their combat efficiency during the battle and have weaknesses that all infantry has. Tyrant guard costs 400 / 55. That is so fucking cheap. And it can restores its health on the field and doesn't bleed you at all. I talk about tyrant guard because it is the closest of all walkers to ogryns.

The only ogryns' advantages are that they can retreat from any trouble, they can be supported by some abilities, they can chase any target. And they have tons of disadvantages compared to walkers.

ogryns will tear a TG a new asshole preety darn fast also the types of ways to deal with ogryns for most other races do not exsist for nids . If u hit bone head just as the first supresion spor shot is fired it will miss, alowing the ogren into meleey combat with a synaps unit.

When i play nids i fear ogryns and rightfully so overwhelming IG armys with nids is a solid stratagy and ogryns are basicaly a hard counter to this.