Dawn of War Codex

Problem of the ability being;
- disable duration can be too long
- can't retreat out from it
- little counter play against it since active disruption is not available to everyone or sometimes not worth/too expensive to get just to counter.

Suggestion:
- consider changing the activation method to something similar to FC's battlecry. Click and then able to deliver 3 charges of knockback etc.

- change the effect; to a one shot small aoe knock back

- remove the ability; I don't see how it is necessary for the effect to be knock back. Entangling web's support effect is more desirable in terms of game balance mechanics. It leaves room for counter play.

the point about retreat has been addressed. the reload time has been changed in elite, so you should be able to retreat out of it unless your unit is knocked down while being told to cap something, perform an action, etc...

i'd like to see what matchup you specifically have in mind because many commanders have a way of countering this wargear. in any case, i don't think removing it is a good idea. i'll put forth a matchup as an example of why.

imagine apo (with vial, shotgun scout, tac, scout, asm) vs. wse (with deathspinner and 1111 build). if it weren't for the deathspinner, wse will literally lose every single engagement - vials completely rape shees. is deathspinner too easy of a counter to vials? maybe. you may ask, what is a solution for the apo player? don't get vial, go for the bolter instead.

from this example, i'd like to point something out. deathspinner itself is usually a counter to a single-entity unit. you can either counter this counter (bubble shield works well for this purpose on few commanders) or just use that single-entity unit in a different way. on the top of that, this wargear is VERY energy intensive, and only really shines with armor upgrade (total ~50 power with weapon+armor) or with WSE webway gates. neither of these things should be a big concerns in T1 if you just adapt your playstyle with this wargear in mind.

FiSH wrote:imagine apo (with vial, shotgun scout, tac, scout, asm) vs. wse (with deathspinner and 1111 build). if it weren't for the deathspinner, wse will literally lose every single engagement - vials completely rape shees. is deathspinner too easy of a counter to vials? maybe. you may ask, what is a solution for the apo player? don't get vial, go for the bolter instead.

Your example seem to be biased because all you mentioned for the eldar was 'shees'. I am sure the suppression team and rangers have their use, especially rangers, because they have an active knockback. And warpspider as a hero and eldar the race is supposedly not designed to force and win hard engage early, rather, by utilizing their mobility and surprise elements to make swift strikes. It is also unconvincing to say that w/o the deathspinner, WSE will always lose to APO.


If it is true the knock back is made only to be a counter, then the damage of the ability should be minimial. The utility alone is quite enough against commanders that have no means to defend themselves from it.

The possibilities of what would happen in a field is almost limitless, so I'd rather not go into the detail to theorycraft how should and could a fight be played. Unlike Apo, warp spider can teleport away easily and give him the initiative advantage. When you can shut down a commander alone and do significant damage at the same time (not to mention, usually followed with a blanket of shuriken barrage). I think it brings too much to the table for that one ability.

I am not sure if we should really consider about the cost of the ability in this scenario. When it is played well, the ability wins fight, forces retreat. It is expensive, but does it justify the long duration crowd control when this game doesn't provide reliable interruption/counter play for all commanders? For your information, I was playing a warlock. I couldn't even warp jump/teleport away. Once I got lockdown and my suppression team got disrupted (by various means), I lose the commander and the fight immediately.

Trust me, I've used it alot lately to see if this is one of those abit of a sleeper broken things. And I just didn't list it. I even outright said it was broken during the games I had with it, and said it was a pressing matter.

There's just not enough of a window of opportunity to make counter-action/counter-plays for the most part. It really does need some re-adjustments.

hastaga wrote:Your example seem to be biased...

embarrassingly, yes. i had a few frustrating games against an apo using vials recently and just could not beat him until i prioritized getting the deathspinner before a 4th t1 squad. but maybe i was seeing things wrong. and maybe the changes to vials that will be put into effect will alleviate such frustration (and very well justify tweaks to the spinner in the example i provided).

Well to be honest it seems no better than entangle. Entangle is such bullshit, it having low range is not a big deal since the spider can teleport (combine entangle with the improved warp generator for max lulz). I mean you can't counter that ability at all and it can instantly force off melee just entangle -> nade. Entangle trolls the IG MU where they only have two sources of melee - ogryns and their hero. 2 nades can wipe ogryns, a 550/120 investment and ogryns are stopped by suppression and you can entangle them, like wtf, how is this balanced, same thing happens with jump squads though, entangle -> nade on the frozen squad, nade in retreat path. Wipes.

In my opinion either they both need nerfs or neither needs nerfs because currently I very rarely get the death spinner instead of entangle, except vs the apo/tm/wb/kn etc

@torpid
at the risk of going off-topic, couldn't you also say the same thing about assail->manticore? or crossbow pistol->manticore?
(i also feel like servo skull->manticore is some bullshit too, but i don't want to raise any balance discussions about IG because i am not good with them. just want your opinion on similar abilities to entangle->nade)

Yes, because I have 3 manticores available at all times, capping the entirety of the map, wiping squads in retreat and consistently forcing off all opposition

In all honesty though, I find assail a bullshit ability, I don't think the assail/crossbow -> manticore combo is in any way broken, but assail by its nature as a wholly uncounterable ability with massive range which results in forcing off any squad, is broken. Now the old set-back to it was that it immmobilised the inquisitor making her significantly less useful, especially if assail was cast at long range (inferno pistol/crossbow have short range).

Also manticores have no wipe potential.

imagine apo (with vial, shotgun scout, tac, scout, asm) vs. wse (with deathspinner and 1111 build). if it weren't for the deathspinner, wse will literally lose every single engagement - vials completely rape shees. is deathspinner too easy of a counter to vials? maybe. you may ask, what is a solution for the apo player? don't get vial, go for the bolter instead.

You are omitting the part where the deathspinner not only counters vials,but the heal, negates all the damage the apo could have done himself, and opens him a for a easy wipe since an apo on the ground + shees = dead apo.

Oh yeah, you also forgot the part where the deathspinner effects overpowers all the other knockbacks it has the priority over the bolter/kustom shoota.

Fish, Im glad you agree it is bonkers after abusing it against me ;_;

the deathspinner essentially 1 shots the apo

relax ace of swords, i already said i was biased because i was frustrated with the damn vial...
and thongsong,

Ace of Swords wrote:Oh yeah, you also forgot the part where the deathspinner effects overpowers all the other knockbacks it has the priority over the bolter/kustom shoota.

It is not a priority issue, bolter and shoota do kb in an area while the deathspinner focuses on one model, thus is more accurate and indeed "tends to have priority" over those weapons.

FiSH wrote:relax ace of swords, i already said i was biased because i was frustrated with the damn vial...
and thongsong,

It was only after the game ended that I realised there were 2 WSEs...


fuuuuuu


I should go sleep...

I still think it's bullshit that the WSE can teleport in and immediately start knocking you down for eternity, since you can't retreat out of it if you were performing an action (capping or activating an ability) when the knockback started. I know the retreat issue w/ knockback can't be fixed easily but at least with other knockdown abilities (full auto, kustom shoota, etc.) you can react and stop capping in time since those heroes can't teleport in.

Agreed on the kb rework for this. Its like a constant kb, even when youre on the ground it looks like its pushing you, vs all the others which at least let you get back up after, probably why you cant retreat out of it

No that's not because of this. It is just the frequency of the attack that is very high.

I guess I can add the same "spam filter" that Kolaris made for other ranged kb attacks.

does the death spinner standart-attack give a damage boost to the spider? and how big is the damage boost with the ability activated?

Getting the upgrade increases his ranged damage from 24 to 35dps IRRC, the same as the entangling web buff. The ability itself doesn't do any extra ranged damage it merely causes KB to the model being shot at.

Lulgrim wrote:I guess I can add the same "spam filter" that Kolaris made for other ranged kb attacks.

Does it mean that WSE will take longer to reload while using the ability? I'm not sure I know how the "spam filter" works.

It won't trigger the kb more frequently than once every x (3?) seconds.