Gonna do some wargear stuff... need suggestions.

[Tex]

Hey guys, I'm doing some wargear specific play lately, I need some ideas/feedback on certain pieces.

My list isn't terribly long at the moment, currently I will be working with:

1) Witchblade of Kurnous (wl)
[my finding is that this wargear needs a complex adjustment (internal and external)]

2) Aura of discipline (lc)
[this wargear seems to do its job, most noticeably with ogryns, I do loathe however, that it doesn't really help the LC be independent of sentinel play]
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293617
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293618
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293619

3) Servo Skull (inq)
[fully functional wargear, incredibly effective and the short duration of the scan keeps it balanced]

4) Purification Rites (apo)
[Effective wargear, does its job for sure. Might be overpriced by 5 power]

5) Boss Pole (wb)
[Surprisingly, I have found this wargear to be very effective at reducing bleed, however, it doesn't do the job of countering suppression very well at all. Angry bitz counters suppression more effectively and the boss pole is actually best used in tandem with stormboyz (as far as I've found)]
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293616

6) Bioplasma (HT)
[this wargear is in my junk pile. It is ineffective in all circumstances and somehow costs 25 power]

7) Electric armor(mek)
[This wargear appears to be under-performing for its cost. So far what it contributes to a fight can done with better results by the dakka deff gun. The lack of move speed means the extended damage is greatly reduced, making this wargear very simple to counter. The last best hope before for this wargear is to pin down a high value squad and shock it into retreating... Something that the dakka deff gun can again, probably do better.]
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293620
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293621 (sweet comeback here)

8) Angry Bitz(wb)
[Don't need many games to see that this wargear over-performs at 20 power. It just does too much for a 20 power wargear.]

9) Daemonic Visage(CL)
[So far this wargear has proven to be very potent. My CL thus far has been almost impossible to kill in melee when he has this equipped. Still need to do more testing in larger engagements. Done testing it in larger engagements, its quite a powerful wargear, but it does come with a large cost. Not sure if the effect is too much, but it definitely does make stuff like Nobs and Genestealers much less effective.]
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293629
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293630 (epic game here)


10) Icon of Khorne(CL)
[1 game in and this wargear actually worked out okay! I think the main problem with the icon of khorne is that it shouldn't cost 25 power. It has a very specific role to play and I feel that role involves forcing your opponent to get jump troops against you.]
- http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=293631

11) Toxic Cysts(LA)
[This wargear is far too specific in its role I have found so far, and thus it is crap. There is basically 1 unit that this wargear works properly against, and that is banshees. This wargear also 98% of the time requires lone hunter to be paired with it. I always find the regeneration effect to be insignificant considering that the LA will be in melee. I really wish this wargear provided a bit more tankyness so that the option to use different weapons would be opened up.]

12) Toxic Miasma(RA)

13) Crippling talons(RA)

14) Nemesis halberd(BC)

15) Nemesis Force Staff(BC)

16) Mind blades wargear(BC)

17) Nemesis Vortex(BC) does it snare vehicles?
[It is confirmed, this wargear snares vehicles. Now to find out if the effect is too much, and also, if it is OP in tandem with interceptors]
18) Psychic Lash(BC)

19) Time Field(FS)

20) Axe of the Mechanicus(TM)

21) Mekboy turret(Mek)

***Notes***
At this point I want to just enter my thoughts/experience on a few items that people have suggested. I don't need to test these things because I already regularily use them!
-Carapace armor (LC): This armor functions perfectly well and has a nice perk of suppression immunity after an execute for the LC.
-Assail(inq): The duration seems to be a touch shorter and it doesn't do rape mode levels of damage anymore so I don't see it as horrible. It does however snare from super long range, making me think it should go back to being a channeling ability.
-Psychic Scream(HT): This wargear seems super powerful for it to be in T1. Everytime I use it, I laugh as my hormagants eat a squad that is normally supposed to beat them to a pulp. I don't however know the exact stats on it, can somebody fill me in?
-Icon of Tzeentch(CS): This wargear is still in a weird spot. The change to % damage helps it vs bigger targets, but the timing is such a gamble. Also, changing to a % of max hp has really hurt it in terms of killing off small units. For what it does, its quite costly. I always figured it could use a non damage perk.
-Improved warp generator(WSE): specifically, group teleport. Its a strong ability for sure, but I don't see it as being imbalanced unless your sole focus is malicious intent (which will often lose you the game anyhow). I have used this thing a ton in recent history and sometimes it grabs you a squad kill, sometimes its a big waste of time. Classic gamble eldar stuff.
-Assassun's Knife(KN): I think you are right (torpid). At this point, the knife is so very good it needs to cost 125-25.
-Armor of the Apothecarion(apo): this armor is troll mode. Watch how Noisy uses it to constantly bait people into trying to focus the apo. It literally makes killing the apo impossible without some kind of stun/constant knockback. Very good wargear. I wouldn't call it crazy OP or anything though, it costs a pretty penny.
-Regenerate Armor(RA): This is a strong wargear from green cover for sure, but you literally pay for some HP and regeneration. Its decent.
-Acid Splatter(RA): Some people say this is OP... But I'm just not seeing it. It is effective in T2, and doesn't scale into the late game. Anything that the RA pairs with this wargear can be countered.
-Stormshield(FC): Strong wargear, does its job well, has drawbacks, balanced.
-Corrosive Devourer(RA): Super strong weapon, costs a ton, its awesome by default cuz its anti-all + ranged. Its basically an auto purchase with RA most games, but I don't think that makes this externally OP, just internally.
-Landmines(mek): This wargear is OP. The snare is too damn long.

This list is clearly incomplete, I am however just really struggling to use brainpower at the moment. Help suggest some other wargears that are in an awkward spot, whether it be too strong or too weak (as you feel) and I will add them to the list.

Thanks!

[Torpid]

Yup, the servo skull is amazing, it's a real gem, so so so good.

Could you please me reaffirm the overpoweredness of assail? How about that book thing the IQ has, I find that's in a real awkward position that, although it does synergise well with assail/inferno pistol, it still generally isn't worth it most of the time. How about the suppression armour for the LG? The first armour for the LC (carapace).

Psychic scream on the HT. All of the LA's weapon wargears, also Toxic Cysts on the LA. Talons for the RA and Toxin Miasma on the RA.

Icon of tzeentch on the CS. Daemonic Visage of the CL (permanent hard boyz on your army ftw?), Icon of Khorne on the CL (how viable is this really?).

Mek electric armour. Knob's knife (seems OP). Angry Bitz on the warboss (seems OP, IIRC it is 20 power, I think 25 would be more fitting).

Stims/apothecarion on the apo.

Group teleport armour for the trollspider exarch.

Texcalibur - the sword that carves the world into balance.

[FiSH]

I am expecting many to disagree, but: Providence.

This wargear is bad now. All the controls that was used before for WL can still control him, so the invulnerability has no effect like those from BC or HT. Its real value, obviously, is in spell-casting. But now with the short duration, you can honestly just do warp throw -> ethereal slash twice. That's it!

Why hold out until T3, with an awkward weapon (Witchblade of Kurnous) that doesn't go well with any other wargear but providence + warp throw build, and pay so much for one more warp throw -> ethereal slash?

Sure, Witchblade of Kurnous has its uses - and it performs great in some cases - but the early game utility, damage, and tracking special attack of Merciless Witchblade makes Witchblade of Kurnous a FAR less attractive option. Honestly, the early game pressure WL can manage with Merciless Witchblade and Champion's Robe is FAR more game-changing than one more combo of warp throw -> ethereal slash.

Yes, sure, you can switch wargear. But no thanks, I'd rather save for some Eldar T3 units.

[Raffa]

1) Witchblade of Kurnous (wl)

Ethereal Slash is my favourite melee aoe attack - it's absolutely amazing and effective against all infantry targets. Especially good for counter-initiation against Tyranids.

2) Aura of discipline (lc)

Strong. Makes 3 guardsmen builds very viable and adds a lot of field presence. Have played with Yarrick using this and it can (not always) reduce the need for a sentinel.

3) Servo Skull (inq)

I actually forgot this existed lol. Give it a purpose in life :p

4) Purification Rites (apo)

Fantastic. Extra disruption for ASMs which already have 2 disrupting abilities. The icing on the cake is it makes retreat kills with melee harder (if you haven't used the heal ofc).

5) Boss Pole (wb)
6) Bioplasma (HT)

Boss Pole doesn't see action because of Angry Bitz' popularity, so I can't say on that. Bioplasma would IMO be a reasonable choice if it did grenade damage (i.e. useful for retreat spikes and countering buildings)

One thing I'd request, since I seem to be the only person playing RA regularly these days, could you play him and give your opinion on Acid Splatter and Regenerate? Unfortunately I don't have much experience facing this build + strengthened sinew because nobody wants to play RA, but I've used it quite a bit and it seems to underwhelm slightly.

[Kvek]

I doubt Bio PLasma would be good even if ti did grenade damage, right now trying to hit something is frigging hard, unless it's a hormagaunt model in retreat rite tex ?:D

[DarkGod]

Can you please test the storm shield amd chainsword for fc?

Also the ravener alpha's weapons especially the corrosive devourer.

Bro captains force halberd vs force staff?

Also why does bro captains demon hammer do melee damage and not heavy melee?

Flak jacket for comm lord please.

Mekboys proximity mines feel a tad OP.

Ravener alphas armour that revives him. Does it ever work?

Bro captains mind blades wargear that burns away energy... maybe change it to leech instead of burn?

Thanks

[Lulgrim]

Bioplasma would IMO be a reasonable choice if it did grenade damage (i.e. useful for retreat spikes and countering buildings)

Retreat damage doesn't depend on damage type, and the current damage type (plasma cannon) actually has a better garrison modifier than grenade (1.0 vs 0.9).

[Forestradio]

Bro captains force halberd vs force staff?

Also why does bro captains demon hammer do melee damage and not heavy melee?

Bro captains mind blades wargear that burns away energy... maybe change it to leech instead of burn?

Thanks

The halberd could use a very small cost decrease because there is no reason to get it over the staff since GK are so dependent on melee.

The hammer is a disruption/anti-melee gear, and the brother captain can teleport. Giving it heavy melee is going to completely shut down vehicle play vs GK. It already does 100 dps.

The purified blades wargear is fantastic vs some races(nids, eldar, chaos), it doesn't need any changes. You are forgetting that it makes anything trying to swarm the bro captain get knocked over, which is really nice because he is so vulnerable to being drowned in bodies.

[Dark Riku]

Ravener alphas armour that revives him. Does it ever work?

That got changed in Elite. This is only a feature from retail.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I actually ran a servo skull build a week back with Crossbow Bolt pistol and excruciators in T2 against a Kommando. Work's surprisingly well, and really compliments ranged style of gameplay considering all the daka daka would wreck her in melee before she could even do anything. It would completely shut down any sluggas that were under the influence of Hide da Boyz, as well as the Nob himself.

It also works wonders with Eldar from the one or two times I've fielded it against them.

Furthermore, the potential to use it to reaffirm what forces your up against is super invaluable. Coming from a league of legends perspective on support characters, LoS is ridiculously important and having map awareness in a game like this is something I've noticed that is easily dismissed by a lot of players.

So to summarize; please do some work with the Servo skull! Find other uses for it perhaps as well, so we can see it used a bit more in action. It's such a lonely piece of wargear sitting at the bottom of the accessories list ):!

[Tex]

Ah yes! Some very good suggestions. Thankyou all.

So far I have 3 games (saved) with the servo skull and I can pretty much confidently say that it is an amazing piece of wargear, balanced by the fact that the duration of the scan is actually quite short.

Next up on the testing list will be the witchblade of kurnous.

[Asmon]

Ethereal Slash is my favourite melee aoe attack - it's absolutely amazing and effective against all infantry targets. Especially good for counter-initiation against Tyranids

Against all infantry target? Really? Do you know how much damage it does? 25 melee damage if it only hits once. Well that's worth 80 energy right?

[Broodwich]

um it usually does way more than that. That thing rocks

[Dark Riku]

Against all infantry target?

Yes.

Really?

Yes!

that's worth 80 energy right?

Exactly! ^^


Sorry for not contributing Tex. Hope others will.

[Tex]

So far I am finding it very hard to fit the WoK into any feasible build. Further, its pretty much (so far) a shitty wargear that is completely reliant on not just a single, but actually multiple conditions for it to have any use at all.

Here is the big question then, is it external balance that is the problem? Or is it internal?

Obviously the MWB is a savagely good (and expensive) weapon, but we all know that without it, the warlock would instantly be downgraded to a second tier hero. On the other hand, the WoK is very expensive to purchase (consider it is in T2 as well) and use that you hardly ever see it.

Currently I am leaning towards the fact that the WoK needs change, not that the MWB needs downgrading. Please do consider that the HT gets a weapon basically equivalent to the WoK in TIER 1 AND IT COSTS LESS, USES LESS ENERGY, AND HAS LOWER CD! I know, dif hero blah blah... its still food for thought.

More info soon!

[Ace of Swords]

Please do consider that the HT gets a weapon basically equivalent to the WoK in TIER 1

I want to be completely honest, can we stop buffing weapons and squads to retarded levels and actually fix what is overpowered?

WoK is an amazing weapon, I've been killing off retreating nobs squads with it's ability, it's just the best weapon ever vs anyone that get's more than 1 melee squad, you can use it to single handely babysit a shuri from T2 on while shees are off to quickly dealing with other squads all over the map, in T3 with providence and warp throw it easily handles a whole army by itself, and in T2 it decimates any melee squad + a fuckhuge distruption and if the WL is levelled enough you can WT into your WL using the ability of the weapon.

Meanwhile, on the subjected of the HT, that weapon is just overpered, high base melee damage, stupid amount of AoE damage and KB on a T1 weapon and even has a DoT + it can be abused to path block and that's not fine at all since it has nothing to do with perks granted from the weapon, it's just sheer abuse of the shitty pathing and other in-game fuck ups.

[Toilailee]

Please do consider that the HT gets a weapon basically equivalent to the WoK in TIER 1

I want to be completely honest, can we stop buffing weapons and squads to retarded levels and actually fix what is overpowered?

Meanwhile, on the subjected of the HT, that weapon is just overpered, high base melee damage, stupid amount of AoE damage and KB on a T1 weapon and even has a DoT + it can be abused to path block and that's not fine at all since it has nothing to do with perks granted from the weapon, it's just sheer abuse of the shitty pathing and other in-game fuck ups.

qft

Also it's complete retard mode when you use it with HT charge. You can charge in and instantly use the AoE ability while still charging...

To counter HT abusing these 2 wargears (I'm looking at you Floid) you basically need to either stun him before/during charge or pathblock him with a vehicle.

[Atlas]

If you're still taking suggestions, can you please try out incorporating the Liber Heresius upgrade for the Inquisitor and the Proximity Mines for the Techmarine? (think mines is part of Artificer Armor).

For the former, I don't know when/if I should get it at times. The extra energy is nice but when I use energy intensive abilities, like with using Crossbow+ Interrogaters in complement, it feels like it should give a boost to energy regen more than max energy.

For the latter, I don't know how useful it really is and I was wondering what kind of neato things you might be able to pull off with it.

Thanks,
Atlas

[Tex]

I agree Ace, that one of the only uses I'm finding for the WoK is a retreat killer. Problem here (internally of course) is that the warlock has absolutely no problems with retreat killing.

Saying it can be combined with warp throw however is largely ridiculous considering that even with the cloak of shadows equipped as an armor you need full energy and level 3(?) just to perform this.

At the moment my main gripes with the WoK are as follows:
1) It costs as much as MWB but does less damage in ranged and melee. Seeing as how the MWB has the best special attack in the game, its hard to justify ever holding out and waiting for the WoK for several reasons associated with having less general utility yet costing even more (T2).
2) The energy cost on ethereal slash is outrageous. It simply isn't deadly enough to cost 80 energy. Flesh over steel doesn't even cost 80 energy ffs. Subjugation doesn't even cost 80 energy!!
3) Wargears that depend on other wargears to be useful are already less desirable than ones that can do a job independent of synergy.

Currently my "game sense" is telling me that to even things out internally and externally, the WoK could use some tweaks at its current price to keep it competitive:
a) Increase the melee damage and special attack damage of the WoK (external and internal)
b) Decrease the special attack damage of the MWB (internal)
c) Decrease the energy cost of ethereal slash to 65 (external)

Sound okay? I don't feel that is too crazy.

[Tex]

If you're still taking suggestions, can you please try out incorporating the Liber Heresius upgrade for the Inquisitor and the Proximity Mines for the Techmarine? (think mines is part of Artificer Armor).

For the former, I don't know when/if I should get it at times. The extra energy is nice but when I use energy intensive abilities, like with using Crossbow+ Interrogaters in complement, it feels like it should give a boost to energy regen more than max energy.

For the latter, I don't know how useful it really is and I was wondering what kind of neato things you might be able to pull off with it.

Thanks,
Atlas

Liber Heresius has a very clear role IMO, and it basically exists to be combined with the inferno pistol. Any time you buy that pistol, buy the liber heresius. Better yet, buy the liber heresius on the way to T2 and THEN buy the inferno pistol in T2. You will have a huge pool of energy built up which you can dispense in absolutely demonic and annoying ways.

The artificer armor for the tech marine is a very useful and efficient upgrade. I won't be adding it to my testing list for the same reason as the liber heresius: I believe it has a clear role. From my experience playing the TM, I use the artificer armor when I want to use him to lock down a third of the map while my army fights elsewhere. The regeneration allows him to clamp down against ranged firepower and be so stubborn from green cover, while the land mines make approaching him with most melee squads an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that bionics only costs 100-20, which means it isn't a huge deal to switch to that armor just in case you are dealing with AC tics or something.
As far as the landmines go, I have found them to be powerful gen bash deterrents when used with a bit of foresight, they are great for protecting req points, and lastly, they are extremely nasty retreat path killers if you can position correctly and use foresight effectively.

[Torpid]

The mines are also really good AV. They counter that BC/DD rush sooooo well.

[Ace of Swords]

Sound okay? I don't feel that is too crazy.

To keep it short, not it's not OP or UP, it's balanced, a word long forgotten in this mod, it costs alot, when paired with other very costly wargear it's able to pull off amazing things as it should, itself it's good enough to warrant the cost, it doesn't need any buff or nerf, and if you are worried how to make it work, I can just say it's works outside the standard WL builds.

[Forestradio]

Can you try out the Nemesis Vortex wargear?

It feels really strong vs setup teams and even just ranged blobs in general. If you can land the vortex on a squad, the slow it does makes it very difficult to dodge without just retreating.

I don't use this in 1v1 much, but the few times I have (vs IG, orks, nids, sometimes chaos) it just wrecked shit.

[Atlas]

Can confirm that the Nemesis Vortex is really good against lots of stationary, low HP models like Guardsman. It also is a bit hard to see though that may just be the one game I played.

[PhatE]

Not sure if the Brother Captain is immobile whilst nemesis vortex is active but it wrecks the lighter stuff hard. From my understanding it doesn't have a health pool so it's great for supporting your army as well as doing some awesome damage it slows everything as well. The idea of being able to get in close for melee becomes all the more prevalent.

[Tex]

I can confirm nemesis vortex is awesome. I do need to test one thing out though, (the balancing factor) and that is whether or not it slows vehicles as well.

It certainly is good, but its expensive and it can be dodged in a lot of circumstances.

@ Ace, I agree with you in lots of matters bud, but in this case I am politely asking for some replay evidence that I can weigh upon my mental scales.

[Tex]

A quick update,

I'm sort of done testing WoK for the moment. It is an incredibly frustrating gear to use. I mean seriously, to get full mileage from this thing you have to literally try and be in a retreat path at all times with your warlock.
To Ace's credit though, I did play a game where I babysit a platform from T2 onward and that did work pretty well, especially when I used holo field to hide both the warlock and platform, making it a great trap.

I have moved on to the "aura of discipline" now. In my first game with it, I ended up being confused as to what it does? I thought this was a healing wargear, but I honestly don't even notice the difference on t1 squads. My opponent then told me I should use ogryns with it (which I employed the next game) and I still didn't notice anything really. Apparently though, ogryns get a big boost from this wargear though?!?!?!
Point being, can somebody explain how this wargear works to me? Because right now I am not happy paying for a green graphic effect that doesn't seem to do anything.

[Wise Windu]

I think this is right. If not, someone will correct me.

Aura of Discipline:
Allied infantry in a radius of 20 are healed for 16/12/8/4% percent of their health every 8/8/12/12 seconds when the Commissar is surrounded by 1/10/20/30 infantry models.

[Atlas]

So wait the Aura actually heals less% and 4 seconds slower when the model count goes up into the 20-30 models?

I guess that sort of makes sense or else it'll be an energy-less Advanced Healing I think :/

Following the thoughtline, going with ogryns is a low body count (4) and 12% every 8 seconds, which is the best ratio put on one of the only IG units with fairly high health. Kind of weird it designates 1 unit for 16% bonus unless it counts the Commissar himself as a unit.

Maybe the idea of the wargear is to sort of split off of your main force and use it with a single squad elsewhere? Sort of like an IG version of Lone Hunter? Or does it have more use just going for max blob?

[Wise Windu]

The 16% is for any number of models greater than or equal to 1 and less than 10.