Dawn of War Codex

To get to the points directly;

1. Orbital Bombardment's damage is underwhelming.

- It rarely gets to wipe a squad even with all the lifting and cool animations.
- I suggest either a nerf at cost to justify its utility or a buff in damage to make it feel like an actual 'nuke'.

2. DropPod should reinforce terminators, or allow reinforcement of terminators. I do not see how allowing SM to do so will make them OP.

- DropPod is a fragile strategic structure that rewards players for protecting or destroying it.
- Reinforcing a terminator also takes a considerable long time.

Therefore I think the above ideas fits the climate(late game) of t3 with little risk to make SM OP.

The Drop Pod, AFAIK, is a one time 100 req and 200 red, reinforces all units around it INSTANTLY and Free Of Charge. This is why you see people use a Drop Pod even in their bases sometimes, when they have the Red, to not pay extra Req/Enegy to reinforce. So letting it affect Terminators would definitely be OP. However, letting it reinforce Terminators AFTER the drop by paying the regular cost could be OK, seeing as how CTB can reinforce Nobz for free (which is way more OP than this proposed change..) But from a balance POV I see why that's not allowed. AFAIK Summoning Circle does not reinforce Chaos Terminators either?

As for Orbital bombardment, the main problem with it is that the beams can NEVER damage vehicles. If you can get 3 beams to hit something, that's great, but you rarely ever do that. Solution? Beams should snare vehicles. The nuke is so slow that even Land Raiders can easily dodge it if micromanaged. They can't even dodge Roks or Eldritch.

actually the orbital bombardment does a ridiculous amount of damage to vehicles. I once had a force commander FoS my baneblade and couple that with melta bomb, and then into an orbital bombardment. the BB survived but only with a fraction of its hp.

of course, trying to hit vehicles with this thing is a different matter altogether. but because of the fhuge range it has, it's pretty much impossible for your opponent to predict where the beams will land if you space them out cleverly

ThongSong wrote:actually the orbital bombardment does a ridiculous amount of damage to vehicles. I once had a force commander FoS my baneblade and couple that with melta bomb, and then into an orbital bombardment. the BB survived but only with a fraction of its hp. y

Can't help but to make a comparison with Eldritch Storm -_- wipes units, stunlock vechicle and ur BB would prob have been dead if it was a storm which hits you... OB in comparison is much weaker. OB does 'decent' amount of dmg to vechicle, i'd say snaring effect on vehicle is a good idea.

hastaga wrote:1. Orbital Bombardment's damage is underwhelming.

- It rarely gets to wipe a squad even with all the lifting and cool animations.
- I suggest either a nerf at cost to justify its utility or a buff in damage to make it feel like an actual 'nuke'.

It's not that black and white. If you catch something in the centre of a beam it's most likely to die. OB isn't a Rocket Run, Eldritch Storm or Roks in terms of sheer destructive powers but it's rather fine how it is now. Doesn't need a damage buff.
If anything should be changed it would be the beams coming down faster.

hastaga wrote:2. DropPod should reinforce terminators, or allow reinforcement of terminators. I do not see how allowing SM to do so will make them OP.

It should at least allow them to reinforce of the drop pod indeed!

I'm not so sure about reinforcing terminators for free on the initial drop.
Arguments can be made though as long as CDB can instantly reinforce nobs.
I would make the pod reinforce max 1 terminator model on drop and allow reinforcing.

appiah4 wrote:AFAIK Summoning Circle does not reinforce Chaos Terminators either

I have no confirmation on this since I never tried this but why wouldn't it?

ThongSong wrote:of course, trying to hit vehicles with this thing is a different matter altogether. but because of the fhuge range it has, it's pretty much impossible for your opponent to predict where the beams will land if you space them out cleverly

It's also impossible for the SM player to predict where you will move to ^^

Dark Riku wrote:

hastaga wrote:1. Orbital Bombardment's damage is underwhelming.

- It rarely gets to wipe a squad even with all the lifting and cool animations.
- I suggest either a nerf at cost to justify its utility or a buff in damage to make it feel like an actual 'nuke'.

It's not that black and white. If you catch something in the centre of a beam it's most likely to die. OB isn't a Rocket Run, Eldritch Storm or Roks in terms of sheer destructive powers but it's rather fine how it is now. Doesn't need a damage buff.

If anything should be changed it would be the beams coming down faster.

I incline to agree with your suggestion IF damage is not what orbital bombardment is about. Dropping those beams faster will make the utility more effective; allowing SM players to combine the beam and their ranged fire power more effectively. That justifies the relatively low damage of this 500red nuke.

Regarding 'getting caught in the mid of beam'
- Getting caught in the centre of a beam does is not very likely to result in a wipe. It's very difficult to land it dead centre one thing (given how slow it drops), and squads are usually spread out thin enough to have at least 2 models living out of 5.

The only 2 nukes in this game that is NOT expected to do some instant insane damage (as in, with the capability to potentially wipe 1 or 2 squads instantly) is tyranid nuke and orbital bombardment. Tyranid nuke leaves them a large area of buff which is good for zone control and pushing, thus it syerngize with their army.

OB at its current state is not very good at both wiping units and syergizing with SM
- its delayed drop meaning you can't use it reliably as a effective wall to bait in and deter melee units.
- low damage and unreliable explosion knockback meaning there's a chance it can't even kill a 250-30 setup squad

Right now what OB is only useful when the SM player desperately needs something to stop some enemy fire power. Theoretically it can be used to cut-off enemy retreating squads... but the damage is 'minimal'.

*edit for format

It's not that black and white. If you catch something in the centre of a beam it's most likely to die. OB isn't a Rocket Run, Eldritch Storm or Roks in terms of sheer destructive powers but it's rather fine how it is now. Doesn't need a damage buff.
If anything should be changed it would be the beams coming down faster.

to be honest OB barely ever kills off squads, more than once I let my shootas/GMs get fully caught by it and sure I lost alot of models, sometimes even 11/12 models, but still lost no squads, I always tought it should be a single huge beam instead of 3, with only a small area in the exact center of it sucking up units (just sightly larger than the abyss center since it won't actually pull units in) and with damage scaling from higher to lower starting from the center to the sides, the only problem I see with this would be the huge graphical weight it would have and so lag even more recent PCs.

2. DropPod should reinforce terminators, or allow reinforcement of terminators. I do not see how allowing SM to do so will make them OP.

It shoud allow the reinforcing of termies, but not reinforce them when it lands, it also should come down 1-2 seconds faster than no and be more reliable than it is now as far as beign able to place it goes.

Devs were quite clear about why they could not make it land sooner, back in the days. The animation is 7s long. Paradoxically, we might have a better team now that what they had =)

Well considering that the Drop Pod isn't all that worthwhile unless you've lost a considerable amount of models (which is usually not good) and the fact that terminators come out fairly deep into T3 I don't really see a reason why Drop Pods shouldn't allow reinforcement to Terminators.

It's not like the Pod drops all that fast and both Terminators and Drop Pod costs a nice chunk of Requisition and Red. I think it adds up to 750/100 and 550 red? Req income tends to slow to somewhere in the +150s due to upkeep that late. Combined with the already halved reinforcement power cost for Terminators and I don't think it's that unreasonable to have them reinforce on Pod.

Granted I've never tried the combination before.It just seems to make some sense in my head.

Ace of Swords wrote:...I always tought it should be a single huge beam instead of 3, with only a small area in the exact center of it sucking up units (just sightly larger than the abyss center since it won't actually pull units in) and with damage scaling from higher to lower starting from the center to the sides, the only problem I see with this would be the huge graphical weight it would have and so lag even more recent PCs.

...

It shoud allow the reinforcing of termies, but not reinforce them when it lands, it also should come down 1-2 seconds faster than no and be more reliable than it is now as far as beign able to place it goes.

I love both of these ideas. ^ At least, I like the idea of making a more destructive, but only single beam, version of the OB. And I completely support the second one about the DP reinforcing termies the traditional way after it has already landed.

Drop pods have to be more reliable. Should land faster when you request them.

I think the orbital is fine as is, but one should be able to reinforce Terminators from a drop pod once it hit the ground.

The drop pod used to spawn a tac squad back in retail iirc. Why not implement that trait again to make the drop pod more desirable.

And maybe we could put this => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rohqbqhvoc back in as well.

Ah yeah, glorious vanilla beta days.

you want to pay 500/100 every time you want to reinforce? tacs aren't really an aggressive squad either, you don't use them to instantly change the course of a battle and get a bunch of kills, you use them to outlast the opponent. the concept is nice but i see it causing drop pod to be used less instead of more.

Who said that he would have to pay 500 req? 250-300 req and that is pretty much it. A very cheap tac squad and you can upgrade it into sternguard veterans. I really like this idea. Extra tacs are never bad. Because they are tacs! You may need both plasma and rockets. There is something to do with drop pod. It needs buffs.

force barrier into an orbital bombardment is always funny to see

For the Droppod it would be ok to reinforce Termis as long as you have to pay for them, imo. If not that, maybe a small (and uniqe with other) heal aura.

For the Orbital Bombardment, i think its uniqe and it should be like that, (three beams, lifting) a full wipe from just getting caught would be too OP, the damage is nice as it is.

How about the levitation pulls slowly towards the center? This would increase the overall damage, without changing the scale. Or, my favorite, if you get knockbacked by one of the explosions, you can be caught by another Beam. By careful positioning and thinking, you could do terrible damage, and without, it would be just annoying, not killing.

The snare for vehicles would be nice, yes. But if its devastating for infantry, this wouldnt be a must have.

btw. i like thinking outside the box so if i say something stupid, just ignore me

the problem with one catching units thrown from another (i think it probably already happens) is that the beams take quite a while to go off. you would have to place one and then wait for 10(?) seconds or so before placing another one and you couldn't do anything during that time; your units would be on their own. if the beams went off faster it would be doable.

Symetric wrote:How about the levitation pulls slowly towards the center? This would increase the overall damage, without changing the scale.

...

The snare for vehicles would be nice, yes. But if its devastating for infantry, this wouldnt be a must have.

Big fan of the snare for vehicles idea. It would add one more level of utility to the OB.

Big fan of the "pulls slowly towards the center" idea. That would just look awesome.

Im kinda not understand what you mean by waiting ~10 secs for placing another one... you mean if they lev them again when they landed? Cuz i meant that the other ones catch them in mid air (if its possible). So when they explode in ~2 secs each (i guess its about...) the other one packs the models and explode again.

Its no offend im just a bit confused

my memory is that right now you select OB, click a spot, a ring pops up around it, and you can click anywhere within it to place the beams. once you place the first beam it immediately starts and you can place the others when ever you want, with them starting after being placed. i don't think you can cancel the ability once it's placed though and even if you could you'd be be out 2/3 of 500 red so it's really a moot point there. anyway, right now the beams only knockback when for a couple of seconds so in order to catch units you have to place one, wait for it to suck (lol) and then, a bit before it explodes, place another beam and have the units fall into it while it's sucking. point being that all this is going to take a while.

did i make myself any clearer?

What? Multi-target abilities don't trigger before all markers are placed...

damn, i could have sworn i waited while deciding to place the next once and the first one went off. well i'm pretty sure that makes it entirely impossible to grab guys from one beam with another.

what about only 1 beam for the 3rd of the cost?

Just give it the vehicle snare I suggested, I believe that would make it comparable to the Eldritch storm rather than being complete bullshit.

I wondered, do the beams even damage at their "outer edges"?

I played a game where a single Ogryn retreated right into a beam, got lifted up into the air, but didnt take any damage when it went off. Not a single hp.

Is the beam's "lifting" AOE bigger than its damage AOE?

They don't damage at the outer edges. They pick up in a radius 10 and damage in a radius 4.

The final blast does damage up to a radius 11 though (185 piercing) and an added 500 inside radius 6, so the ogryns probably should have taken some damage...

The model was down to about ~45 hp I think.

Just got flung threw the air, but no noticable damage. Hm.

Just a general observation, but it feels like the overall SM globals seem a bit underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong the "first" power for all heroes is very good (Larraman's, FTE, Blessing of Omnissiah).

But 2/3 of the heroes have 2 call ins, though the Ven Dread doesn't seem to be favored, and this thread's main point is how the Drop Pod and the OB (the remaining two globals) aren't particularly impressive.

I get that Space Marines just aren't dependent on their globals but idk :/ I'd almost ask to have Terminators moved to the HQ but that encroaches on GK territory. Maybe this isn't even a problem and if it was I'm not really sure what to do about it.

Orkfaeller wrote:The model was down to about ~45 hp I think.

Just got flung threw the air, but no noticable damage. Hm.

Well, it is piercing damage, and the Ogryns are super heavy infantry, which takes 30% damage from piercing. 185*.3=55.5.

Maybe that could explain it?

Well, three direct hits on a LRR will kill it (LRR has 2500 HP, 850 damage per beam roughly). A single beam is enough to destroy any unupgraded tank and nearly kill an upgraded predator. A vehicle snare sounds pretty OP. Even if you couldn't snare and kill it with a beam, it would be too easy to block off retreat paths and force a vehicle into your army.

You get about 2 seconds between the placement of the individual beam warning marker and the snare. With a little bit of lag, that's not much time at all.

The beams definitely do damage to snared infantry when they explode, so it must have bugged out in your game, Orkfaeller. When I was playing target practice with my own troops I noticed that sometimes it would fail to snare stuff i.e. sometimes a model would walk around within the beam, so the ability is definitely not bug free.

I think the ability is fine as is. Like most SM stuff, you have to be more tactical with it and it "synergizes" with your army very well, in that you will get a lot more mileage out of it if you use it to block off retreat paths and snare while your army shoots the shit out them, rather than try to use it like roks/eldritch. It's great for pincering an already weakened squad/army so if they retreat they get stuck in the beam and die, or if they stay and fight they get shot to death by your army.

Frankly I've seen more red wasted on this global than any other because people try to use it like roks/eldritch.

-Don't use it as an FU after you've retreated your army, because their attention is undivided and they will mitigate the damage or avoid it entirely (goes for any global, really).
-Do use infiltrated scouts to recon the area and place the beams methodically, then swiftly follow up with an attack. Placing the beams frantically when your army is dying is a good way to get shit placement. It requires four clicks and line of sight, so plan for that.
-Use a bit of psychology and try to predict where they will go. Using it while their maneuverability options are limited i.e. in a chokepoint or sandwiched between armies, and use it while they are distracted.
-Don't cluster the beams because there is absolutely no advantage to this. The explosions blast a snared squad out of range of the other beams so you do not get more damage this way.
-Don't cluster the beams around the initial warning marker, because your opponent is reflexively going to move away from the marker.
-For god's sake just don't cluster the beams!!!

@Windu, the explosion does big chunks of damage to vehicles, so there's probably something more going on besides the 185 piercing damage