Upcoming Terminator changes (DRAFT + Community input wanted)

[Caeltos]

The Goal
The Goal is to differentiate the Terminators more from one another and make them more "unique". For an example of this, the Assault Terminators are more frontline damage-soakers, whereas they will trade their fall off in damage, for a much better overall sustainability in a fight. Meaning that reactionary play is more allowed in return, in all of the changes down below.

With more health regeneration of course, they become alot more durable cappers during VP's/points, so this is something to take into consideration as well and is something that is abit under the radar, incase it turns out to be blatanly to strong.

However, as with some mentioned of VP changes (It's probably not going to be a 30% increase, more along the lines of 15% for starters) the extended cooldown may not be as much of a big deal for some, I'd really ultimately boil down to if they need Terminators over Tanks, since Terminators are shifting slightly in their overall damage potentiality, meaning that sometimes fielding Terminators means you're giving up some overall damage-spunks that you might want to take something down, rather than stall fights over long durations, that might just end up costing you.

Chaos Terminators are more potent melee damage fighters, but not by much compared to regular Space Marines. Again, with their demoralizing effect, they would quickly rack up their debuff effect on enemies, exceedingly increasing their damage output by quite a sum. Overall, the new damage output will make them a compelling debuffer/soaker squad, but function much better with a synergized army. Whereas with their less health compared to Loyalist counterparts, they're more capable of taking risk in melee fights to maybe turn it around.

Grey Knights are usually the more stand-up and strongest Terminator kinds, they'll deal abit more ranged-damage in return for losing some of their melee strength. Coupled that with their new health regeneration (Which is 0.25 value less then regular SM/Chaos ones) but they provide passive-bonuses or debuffs without the need to kill anything. And of course, with GK supportive abilities, they're more then capable of supporting them more ideally then Space Marines or Chaos counterparts

But my Terminators have longer cooldown, what about Grey Knights?!
This is true, but I haven't settled in with some adjustments. Baring in mind with how Dreadknights future implementation (When it gets done, and if it gets done. *Crossing fingers*) they are bound to get a potential change in the future to align themselves with a Dreadknight purchase in T3. There are two possible solutions that I'm thinking of right now;

- Red cost for GK terminator and readjustment of GK overall red values
- GK Paladins/Terminators become global (This does pose some problems tho due to global limitations)

But anyway, don't expect nothing to be changed. I know they most likely need to get changed. Once the GK rhino mounted gunner gets done and implemented, the GK meta is bound to get really spiced up and really change stuff around

Anyway, take a peak - leave a comment and be constructive about it.

Space Marines
* Increased the cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Terminator health regeneration from 0.5 to 1.5
* Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 to 30 dps
* Terminator Power Fist damage increased from 34 to 38 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer reduced from 45 to 40 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer now has a 15% chance to stun vehicles
* Assault Terminator Health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.75
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration

Chaos Space Marines
* Increased cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Chaos Terminator health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.5
* Chaos Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 down to 28 dps
* Chaos Terminator melee damage increased from 34 to 40 dps
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration

Grey Knights
* Terminator Halberd dps reduced from 53,33 to 45 dps (Splash unchanged)
* Terminator health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.25
* Terminator ranged damage increased from 26,15 to 28 dps
* Paladin Hammer dps reduced from 66,67 to 50
* Paladin ranged damage increased from 26,15 to 28 dps
* Paladin health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.25

[Ace of Swords]

To be able to judge effectively we'll need the full picture, what exacly are you going to change the other T3s squads cost/dps/surviability wise, only after that it will be possible to see if everything is ok, but still:

* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer now has a 15% chance to stun vehicles

No, Just no.


And also what about tanks in general.

[Raffa]

TL;DR
I agree with the principle you're using - wanting to differentiate Terminator variants more, they have a bit too much overlap atm.

BUT

I disagree with some of the ways you're suggesting doing it.

* Increased the cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Terminator health regeneration from 0.5 to 1.5
* Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 to 30 dps
* Terminator Power Fist damage increased from 34 to 38 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer reduced from 45 to 40 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer now has a 15% chance to stun vehicles
* Assault Terminator Health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.75
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration

Increased regeneration on Thunder Hammer Terminators is ok in my books, after all for any kind of regen to be even slightly noticable at 5400 HP it needs to be high. Clawminators not getting this regen is also fine by me as they are more of a specialist unit, intended specially for squad-wipe threat and use and lose the all-round effectiveness and flexibility of Thunder Hammers.

But a 15% chance STUN on a 3-man squad with high heavy melee damage? Seriously? I'm not the only one who thinks Flesh Over Steel (fine, along with Terrify) is the most broken ability left in the game. Orbs of Omnissiah - if you hit my tank with them that's fair play, but teleporting behind my land raider and FoS is naht cool because I cannot do anything to react to it. Yes you can argue there is an ever-present element of chance in this game which is true and makes it interesting, but by the time T3 hits and the game is in the balance, I do not want to lose my chances because of a flukey stun on my Land Raider/melee dreadnought/etc... from these terminators.

Basically, deterring vehicles often requires just one piece of hard AV, but hunting vehicles needs 2 - usually a stun and a snare, a hammer and anvil, whatever. The classic example is melta bomb + missile launcher. Basically, a way to make the vehicle vulnerable and a way to hurt it when it is. The only other unit able to snare vehicles and bring the pain is Raptors with meltaguns, but getting meltaguns on them can have so many other drawbacks I'm not going to list them. A few heroes can do it (Knob uses infiltration + rokkit launcha, TM has orbs + meltagun) but these at least need some skill to pull off. Oh and FC can do it too, he's been a Land Raider counter since forever and Flesh over Steel is long overdue for deleting :p

In a nutshell, I agree with Chaos Terminator and GK Terminator changes, but I'd really like to hear why you want to implement a passive stun on Thunder Hammer Terminators as I can't really give anything else full thought until I've heard some serious convincing why this is a good idea, cuz I can't see one sorry.

[MaxPower]

As mentioned in the other topic u made, I don't like the 2 min increase on the Cool Down, even now you wont see more then 2 Terminator squads at the same time, once in a while u might be able to field 3, but those tend to be games that last 35 mins +.

This has all to do with the decrease of the bleed u mentioned and as I said, u can't balance two different game modes. Either one is working or the other. Anyways, I like the other changes, the only thing I might ask is why the LC reduce the health regen back to .5 and not lets say 1.0 or .75?

As far as I can tell, the GK Terminators will be the best, because they get better at shooting stuff, okay they lose some of their melee power but they gain that nice little +.75 on health regen.

I especially like the 15% chance of a vehicle stun, reminds me of the TH Terminators of old, back in DOW 2, good times. Even though it might be a bit strong, one question remains, do vehicle stuns apply to monsterous creatures like the ava or the carnifex? If so, TH are the go to Terminator variant for the FC I'd say.

TL:DR

Pro:

- different takes on the different Terminators for different races

Con:

- health regen reduction to .5 with LC instead, maybe go with something like .75 or 1.00
- cd increase of 2 mins
- Apo might turn those Terminators into unkillable monsters

[Vapor]

I don't like the 15% stun thing, maybe hits from the hammers could slow vehicles by a very small amount with each hit instead?

[Forestradio]

No way should terminators stun vehicles unless it is just a TINY slow and not a hard stun.

My other concern is that Paladin regen aura will stack with normal Grey Knight Terminator health regen and make them unkillable.

On a side note, why do GK Terminator variants keep their incinerators?
It's a BETTER heavy flamer on a beastly power melee/heavy melee squad. Should be flat out removed IMO.

[Orkfaeller]

As a fluff bunny I love to see stuff like a vehicle stun on the hammers, but a 15% chance does sound to me almost like a guaranteed dead vehicle once the first stun pops.

On the other hand, I allways thought Hammer Termis dont perform all that great, ( as they just cant keep up with any vehicle ), atleast in comparision with pretty much any other terminator variant.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I don't like at all the stun % on hit of the Thunder Hammer Terminators. The combination of TH Assault Terminators + VOT Libby could result into a perma-stun, which combined with other snare, will make (even more) a nightmare field vehicles against FC. If you want make them even more a damage sponge squad, you could gives them a little ranged damage reduction with the Thunder Hammer/Stormshields, and remove it with Lighting Claws.

I wouldn't increase the ranged damage of the GK Terminators. GK have a lot of buffs to increase the speed, durability and the damage of GK Terminators/Paladins. With the health regeneration increase is enough.

I'm the first who loves launch my Chaos Terminators in melee combat against that poor HWT/piercing damage squads. But I don't feel that increase their melee damage while having relatively low HP per model and without melee resistance, this change it's a bit pointless.

- Against (power_melee) melee squads with melee resistance aura they are going to have low possibilities to win, because they attack very slow and it's relatively difficult to kill models and trigger the Demoralize effect, meanwhile they are going to take full damage (or even more if is power_melee) for the lack of melee resistance. A DPS race that I'm not sure if Chaos Terminators could win.

- Against ranged squads with the actual stadistics they already obliterate them. The combination of non-melee resistance + melee_pvp which have reduced damage against SHI + low melee damage + normally low hp will make any ranged squad have no choice against Chaos Terminators in melee.

If you want to focus Chaos Terminators in melee combat IMHO I should give them a little melee resistance aura, and change it with the full melee resistance aura with Lighting Claws.

[Caeltos]

Well, I'm not saying the stun is like 8 seconds. It's more of a reference to the old Assault Terminators that had a stun percentage on their Thunder Hammers a while ago. The stun wouldn't chain from what I know, and it lasted just for a short period. Given they also had less damage output at that point.

It worked quite well then.

[Wurgl]

I like the idea of giving termis some some counterplay vs tanks, but I also very very strongly dislike the idea of a RNG stun. Also, a stun would help them counter stuff that they already counter very well even better (walkers and LR/BB).

what about some sort of sprint that greatly reduces damage dealt vs infantry?

[Bahamut]

as far as i know u can manually set how much hp a lvl 2, 3 and 4 squad will have.

Is it possible to let all terminators level but with 0 hp and damage gain, only to increase melee skill?

[Broodwich]

I kinda like that idea

On the stun, I like it on its own but when you combine it with the fc teleport plus fos you have two teleporting heavy melee squads that can stun vehicles and tank tons of damage, that's a bit much.

Maybe just a snare or something instead. Or a stun vs infantry.

Thinking about it I think that a higher stun chance would go really well on the power fist for the vanguard to offset losing meltas

[Atlas]

I kind of like the unique aspect of GK Terminators and think that they should stay in the HQ. I suggested earlier build time to mimic the call in cooldown but whatever you think is best.

@Assault Terminators, I think a vehicle stun would be ok. Yeah not excessive and not chainable in the same stun cycle, but this is interesting.

I'm personally thinking a little backwards here and figured the melee Terminator variants would get higher regeneration since they're wading into combat, but maybe that would be too much. Plus I think they get a 50% ranged damage reduction for being in melee iirc.

What would be really cool is if Terminators can level. I think they did a while ago and they were really too good, but any chance we can put this idea back on the table? Level 1 would be about current level, maybe worse and then they get the regen bonuses with each level. (Maybe only regen bonus, no range damage etc etc)
Just a fanboy idea with no real math.

[Broodwich]

Ps, heavy bile spewer for some nurgle terms. Ability would be similar to pc spewer but does a reasonable damage amount

[Black Relic]

The stun would probs be like 1.5 to 2 seconds which really is not that much time. The only trouble being VoT termies. The Stun wont stack but will "reset" if the target is already stunned. Would just have to make the system "check" for the stun before letting the termies stun so this could work. Which I am looking into for my own MOD but having no luck so far. If this is can be done, I am all for it since I main SM

[Arbit]

I'm not really liking the stun idea on assterm hammers. Even if it's a short stun, it's really going to fuck with pathing. You know how if you're backing up a tank/transport and it gets stunned by FoS/TM orbs/haywires it becomes immobile and it decides to turn around and face the direction it was formerly moving, thus baring its rear armor to the entire opposing army? Random stun is going to make that very frustrating.

Maybe they could have a chance to disable vehicle weapons but leave movement alone? Honestly there are so many snares in this game that walkers become an all-in kind of proposition where you either win the engagement or lose the walker, and adding more snares/stuns is going to make that even worse.

[ChesterSnapdragon]

Not a big fan of the RNG hammer stun, why not give them the same snare that Tyranid rippers have?

[Indrid]

I think the RNG hammer deal would be okay if it was 1-3 seconds, didn't stack (occur max once every 6s maybe?) and didn't prevent weapons firing (ie a snare not a stun).

I like that idea of Terminators getting a balance pass and being differentiated more.

[Bahamut]

Well, lighting claw termies are still identical with this patches.

[L0thar]

Yeah, why are clawminators left out?

Just throwing ideas here, what about giving them infantry stun (same implementation like vehicle stun for hammernators)?

[Ar-Aamon]

I appreciate the goal to differentiate Termis. The changes looking interesting so far but I have some concerns too:

The stun Assault Terminators might be a little to strong. 5400 HP unit with 1.75 health reg and a stun chance against vehicles looks scary especially if you think of melta bombs and lascannons which already slow a vehicle. On top of that you can support them with Veil of Time.

To avoid Termis spam of a GK Player I suggest a unit limit of 1 for both. A GK Player can still field to 2 Termi squads.

Furthermore I think it's a very bad trade-off for a GK player if he gains 1.85 dps more PIERCING damage in T3 and looses 15% respectively 25% of their melee damage. I don't think the health reg increase will compensate this significant change.

[Black Relic]

Yeah, why are clawminators left out?

Just throwing ideas here, what about giving them infantry stun (same implementation like vehicle stun for hammernators)?

Lightning claws already shred Infantry. Doesnt need a buff I assure you. Since I am assuming the Termies will retain their 5400 health pool and just sacrifice the health regen.

Furthermore I think it's a very bad trade-off for a GK player if he gains 1.85 dps more PIERCING damage in T3 and looses 15% respectively 25% of their melee damage. I don't think the health reg increase will compensate this significant change.

I think is more to help with small arms fire instead. Making T1 units like shootas and guardians (as examples) obsolete which would help survive ability alot. Would also help with their greatest weakness, stuns\snares. Gk termies already support their armies passively so I think is a decent change without making the GK termies too OP even though they are Supa Marinz.


When assault termies are on the field your enemy player is VERY conscious of them. Getting them in to combat with a vehicle (unless a walker) isnt easy to do (even with a snare) since most armies will already have a way to slow the temies advance. This is why i don't get termies much when I play. So i think them getting a little somethings will help alot. I like the Stun. As long as it doesn't "reset" itself and has a delay between stun like what Indrid mentioned. and a 1.5 sec stun on a vehicle is pretty much a unit getting specialed by FC with hammer and them standing back up. Its not alot of time. So think it as if its "KB" on a vehicle rather than stun.

15% maybe to much. Maybe 10%. thunder hammer termies have quite slow attacks though.

[Torpid]

Any RNG is bad. RNG is stupid, no I disapprove of RNG.

[Ar-Aamon]

I think is more to help with small arms fire instead. Making T1 units like shootas and guardians (as examples) obsolete which would help survive ability alot.

Really? We are talking about 5.55 more dps for the whole squad. For comparison one scout does 7.58 dps...

[Nubster]

Liking that increased health regeneration but in my opinion terminators are fine how they are now. Probably changes are coming in some form and my main concern is CSM so:

I would keep CSM Terminators ranged damage unchanged, so they hit sligthly harder in melee and ranged than their loyalist counterparts but got less HP. Being more dedicated melee squad with relative low HP per model, without charge, melee resistance, slow movement and attack speed doesn't seems work well.

I'm also little sceptical about that Thunder Hammer vechile stun. Seems a bit unnecessary and too good combined with SM AV arsenal and abilities. Also NRG is lame.

5 min cd already feels a long time, 7 min is like life time. Maybe its still needed with new VP stuff, cant really say before its implemented.

Everything else sounds good.

[hastaga]

Basically I am against anything with RNG involved. Not much of strategic values in RNG. People want this to be a strategic game... situations that involve "omg please stun this vechicles please" --->

a. "OMGWTFBBQ THAT STUN LOCK IS OP"
b. "OMGWTFBBQ 9 ATTACKS NO STUN"

is frustrating and not fun no matter wt result you get.

Not to mention, it's extremely difficult to CC terminators... unless you are eldar. Some heroes/races don't have the ability to do that at all. Which means there will be a counter play problem.

So yes, to give hammer termie the utilities they need to justify picking them up imo is to give them 1 or 2 active abilities

merciless strike or battlecry effect and/or flesh over steel.

[Warp Dust Addict]

I hate RNG's and they hate me.
Also for the GK "Buff" I don't see it helping at all...GK does not do anywhere near enough ranged damage as it is.And they have no ranged AV cept for Psy-Cannons which do worthless damage.The only AV GK has is melee and you want to nerf it.Seems like its going to be even eaiser to Carni Rush GK.
GK cant win a ranged fight and with the nerf we wont even be able to win melee (which we can hardly do as it is)

[Torpid]

The las-rhino and the vindicare assassin aren't AV all of a sudden? (ignoring the dread due to pricing)

[Warp Dust Addict]

The las-rhino and the vindicare assassin aren't AV all of a sudden? (ignoring the dread due to pricing)

IMO they aren't effective enough to warrant the nerf.GK depends a lot on Term support and IMO only thing that needs nerf/fix is the flamer.

[Dark Riku]

That still doesn't mean they aren't AV options. The VA is a very good option in fact vs everything and the lasrhino a very good one vs melee walkers.