My experience with Tier 2 of Chaos

[ChrisNihilus]

First of all i don't want to talk about balance for the simple reason i have no word in it.
I don't even know which faction is the favourite and it doesn't really matter; this game is fun, and that's all that really matter to me.

But in my short experience i can say that, as a Chaos player (if my avatar wasn't a hint ) i have trouble in Tier 2.

I was thinking about it and i believe the problem is that every unit in the Tier 2 of Chaos is very situational (that's not a bad thing) and have a very little "safety margin".
Except for the obvioius Dreadnaught, that is predictable, all the other units have no upgrade for change their role in combat.

They are not bad units, but have little to no flexibility.
I really like Noise Marine for example; a flamer unit that can change in a heavy plasma one. Awesome.

Plague Marine don't. They rest as a very situational and slow AV.
Bloodletters are a jump units that i still don't quite get the difference with raptors.
Bloodcrusher is a unit that have a very short span of life. You can do lot of damage if you rush it, but then it has no place and rarely get in Tier 3.

I read about a subcommander for Chaos and i can say that i'm completely against it.
I think there is potential for a more dynamic Tier 2 just with upgrades for these units and there is no need for a new unit.
(but a Dark Apostle of Slaanesh as a forth Commander... i'm ok with it)

A Tier 3 upgrade for the bloodcrusher that give it a place in late game combat would promote more experiment with it in Tier 2. A teleport/leap? Some change in type of damage? Health and regeneration? Damage resistance during charge? I don't know.
But still, knowing that a Bloodcrusher may be useful in Tier 3 with a new role will allow players to play them more without feeling is a gamble, and find a role for them until they get that upgrade.

Bloodletters are ok, but they may enjoy something to differentiate them from raptors. Maybe the Collar of Khorne, and give them some energy leech into life ability, so they become a more "anti-energy units"" type of jumper. I still don't know. Just brainstorming.

And final, my favourite, the Plague Marine.
I believe they could have some upgrade to become a slow and metodical melee unit. Give them, for example, an upgrade for switching to Plague Knifes so, like Noise Marine, they can change their type if they become obsolete.

Probably some of these ideas are garbage but i still think that some of them are rarely seen and the gameplay may benefit from some extra options, expecially for the bloodcrusher.

Thanks for reading.

[Wurgl]

just a quick question to clarify: can you give an example of units from other races that are less situational and more adaptive?

for example, plaguemarines - thats not a chaos specific thing. tankbustas stay tankbustas, venom broods stay venom broods, etc. Plaguemarines actually are one of the av units with most utility, iirc caeltos changed their anti infantry dps and on top of that they can serve as a damage soaking, speed decreasing, disrupting melee shield.

Ofc there are some units that can change their role (e.g. tacs, most setups teams) but thats mostly t1 units in order to help them scale in t2. chaos equivalents would be csm, nm, etc.

However, I agree that for example letters are a bit of a "boring" unit with no wargear and maybe giving them some t3 upgrade might be nice.

also, cudos for the idea of giving crusher a teleport. thats something not even bC or Task3r thought about. im pretty sure if you suggested that back in chaos rising it would have instantly been implemented.

[Tex]

just a quick question to clarify: can you give an example of units from other races that are less situational and more adaptive?

for example, plaguemarines - thats not a chaos specific thing. tankbustas stay tankbustas, venom broods stay venom broods, etc. Plaguemarines actually are one of the av units with most utility, iirc caeltos changed their anti infantry dps and on top of that they can serve as a damage soaking, speed decreasing, disrupting melee shield.

Ofc there are some units that can change their role (e.g. tacs, most setups teams) but thats mostly t1 units in order to help them scale in t2. chaos equivalents would be csm, nm, etc.

However, I agree that for example letters are a bit of a "boring" unit with no wargear and maybe giving them some t3 upgrade might be nice.

also, cudos for the idea of giving crusher a teleport. thats something not even bC or Task3r thought about. im pretty sure if you suggested that back in chaos rising it would have instantly been implemented.

3/4's srs

1/4 sarcasm... lol

@Chris,

I think you feel this way about chaos simply because they have the weakest economy in the game. Usually your buying power will extend you only a single additional unit in T2 while a lot of other races can put some pretty powerful stuff on the table during this time period.
All I can really say to you is if you work hard to control your bleed in T1, a lot of options will open up to you in T2 and you will find that you don't need to rely on situational units, but rather that you will only need to supplement your army with them.
Example) A well controlled chaos tier 1 with 2x CSM and no havok can transition into t2 and still be able to counter transports with the khorne marine upgrade. Because you controlled your bleed, not only do you have the chance to try and counter the transport with T2 upgrades instead of new units, you also have the resources to soon purchase a T2 unit to augment your threat should you fail to take down the transport.

[ChrisNihilus]

All I can really say to you is if you work hard to control your bleed in T1, a lot of options will open up to you in T2 and you will find that you don't need to rely on situational units, but rather that you will only need to supplement your army with them.
Example) A well controlled chaos tier 1 with 2x CSM and no havok can transition into t2 and still be able to counter transports with the khorne marine upgrade. Because you controlled your bleed, not only do you have the chance to try and counter the transport with T2 upgrades instead of new units, you also have the resources to soon purchase a T2 unit to augment your threat should you fail to take down the transport.

I suppose it make sense.
But don't get me wrong; I'm not saying all this because i find Chaos weak (i don't), and i know i can learn and i will.
I did make this post not to say that is unfair or broken or anything (i don't believe it) but to say that, for me and my experience, there is space to improve the gameplay in that direction.

As a Mod that is always improving, i say that revaluate old units is better than just make new units, that require much more effort and time for the same results in gameplay.
Like the subcommander and the Talons upgrade for Raptors that i saw suggested a few times and i don't feel necessary.

That's all.
I still having a lot of fun times with this game, so this post is not a criticism, just suggestions.

[Sub_Zero]

Well, what I want to say, the bloodcrusher can survive throughout an entire game, it depends how you use it. I learned to use him very well with the khorne worship (along side 2x khorne marines). The best worship for this thing, I think. Of course it is not as good in T3 when tanks pop up as it is in T2. By the way, I prefer bloodcrushers over dreads all the time. I just like how easily they can be repaired and how much advantages they give you in combat (charge, roar). However I feel like every unit should have some upgrades in later tiers. The Falcon being a T2 unit has a T3 upgrade. The wraithlord being a T2 unit has a T3 upgrade. The dreadnought being a T2 unit has a T3 upgrade. And it is nice! You should be rewarded with some upgrades if you preserve your vehicles. About the plague marines. They are a versatile unit and good as they are. Although I don't think that full removal of their self heal was a necessary measure. You might end up reducing it to 10% of its effectivness. I don't like the approach when some things get removed flat out. And about your offer to make them a melee unit I am inclined to say that it is not needed, Chaos has tons of melee units. Finally I will voice my opinion about Raptors vs Bloodletters. Honestly I don't even know how you compare them to Raptors. Yes, they both are jump units but Raptors no near as strong as bloodletters in melee combat. Bloodletters are just rapists. Even without their worship they own so much stuff in melee. Raptors do suck in melee. About their jump unit functions. Bloodletters having an ability to teleport should not necessarily use it to counter ranged units or setup teams. It is always better I think to phase out and drag your army behind them (especially heretics for support). Phased out bloodletters will force your opponent to move his army. Once the effect wears off you start worshipping and your bloodletters restore their health and energy incredibly fast. To deal with bloodletters under heretics' worship you need a vehicle. To deal with raptors you need a stronger melee unit. And there are a lot of strongers units than raptors. Shortly - bloodletters are not like raptors at all. To be honest I think that bloodletters are overpowered for such a low power cost. Health of bloodletters got buffed, damage got changed and buffed, req cost got reduced and yet no changes to their power cost which is a omission I think. Personally I have never liked bloodletters. I have always prefered bloodcrushers over them. But I have to say that bloodletters are incredibly strong and are better than khorne marines expect for retreat kill missions.

[Torpid]

Letters aren't as good at retreat killing as khorne marines are, unless you consider that bloodletters have more of a chance vs set-up teams due to the teleport. KCSM are faster (speed 6, not 5) and they don't have that passive teleport that does no damage AND KCSM do quite considerable ranged damage and 100% FOTM.

[Sub_Zero]

He compared raptors and bloodletters.

[Torpid]

"But I have to say that bloodletters are incredibly strong and are better than khorne marines expect for retreat kill missions."

I guess you meant better than raptors? In which case I would also agree.

Essentially the difference is that bloodletters are real damage dealers and they can stand up to dedicated melee squads with ease if you worship them. Raptors on the other hand offer more crowd control, they shutdown enemy ranged blobs and rip through set-up teams really fast, while taking reduced damage from piercing weapons - most ranged attacks, however they lose to dedicated melee. That's the difference. Typically I don't like raptors very much as chaos already have a lot of ways of dealing with melee, such as havocs with their instant suppression, all their AOE goodies or just shooting them up with tzeentch marines.

[Raffa]

With Chaos it's pretty much obligatory that you stockpile as much requisition as possible - for me, this has evolved into a playstyle where I play the Plague Champion and hope my opponent can kill 4 or 5 heretics from one of my tic squads (sometimes both, if one squad gets away with one or two models I'll probably just sit it at base for worship purposes). Consequently I can sit it in the back away from fire and use it for worship for a tiny upkeep cost, even as an emergency way to cover a retreat against melee chasers with a Doomblast. Played correctly it is a total whore to try to bleed this kind of army. Havocs and NM get 2 models, very rarely more except possibly vs IG. I play this way to counter Chaos' req dependency and poor economy, which everyone experiences and which is definitely hitting you in T2, and try to make up for it with the power of Chaos' T2 units.

Basically, the trick to making Chaos T2 great is to minimise your bleed in T1. Sorry if I've used my playstyle too much in this example, but it works and is an example of how I try to get around the weakness of Chaos' dependence on requisition. Do that and it is much easier to access all the juicy Chaos T2 units.

[Tex]

Well said sir Raffa!

And yeah, ChrisNihilus, I wasn't saying that Chaos is UP or weak, I was just saying that their economy tends to be the weakest, especially seeing as when you play chaos, the absolute most critical point in the game is the T1 --> T2 transition. Without that req stockpile, you will likely lose.