Dawn of War Codex

I feel like it may be overperforming a bit against vehicles and underperforming against infantry. IMO it could use higher DPS vs infantry and lower DPS vs vehicles and perhaps a shorter cooldown.

The reason for this is because one volley can take out a tank but is basically a whirlwind when aimed at infantry.

dont you think thats what it was intended for?

An argument could be made like that for every weapon.

Assaultcannon for dreadnaught. "i feel this weapon is too good vs infantry and should do more dmg to tanks"

The autocannon, much like the rocketson termies, are for a specific purpose. Their knockback and minimal dmg is there to not make them useless when and if there are no more vehicles present. As you have probably noticed the termies do considerable dmg with their bolters while they are not barraging so I think its uneccesary to have comparable dmg to both.

David-CZ wrote:I feel like it may be overperforming a bit against vehicles and underperforming against infantry. IMO it could use higher DPS vs infantry and lower DPS vs vehicles and perhaps a shorter cooldown.

The reason for this is because one volley can take out a tank but is basically a whirlwind when aimed at infantry.

I do think the volley does too much damage to vehicles

Gorilla wrote:dont you think thats what it was intended for?

The reason why I brought this up is because the damage vs vehicles seems a bit too high and I thought they could do with a better AI damage as a tradeoff for having AV reduced. But I do realize CML was designed solely for AV purpose. And unfortunately it seems overperforming in that regard.

Well considering the CML is a weapon platform on a 650/100/350 unit that costs 100/50(I think?) it's ability to destroy a 425/125 (and other variously priced) tank that doesn't micro out seems reasonable to me.

But yeah the CML is meant to give ranged AV to a unit that is fairly slow while keeping its piercing dps. I think it works nice enough.

The cml is a dedicated av weapon. You get it to give your terminators another an option to deal with vehicles, if you wanna kill infantry you get the ac or the flamer. Reducing the damage vs vehicles would mean that nobody would use it anymore, because u could get better ai weapons for the terminators.

And one should keep in mind that the missile spread is quite large, meaning that you wont be able to kill a vehicle in one volley most of the time.

Also, move your vehicle.

I buy this upgrade in almost every game I use ranged terminators in and it does quite a bit more to infantry than a whirlwind does.

Especially at a closer range.

It's great for anti blob, the cooldown is really low as is. I would venture to say make the damn thing windup faster, between the missiles slow speed and that it's a bit too hard to use to full effect.

I think it's in a nice position now. It finally has a role that works. I mean the thing not only costs 50 power, but you're forgoing some really strong weapons in the form of the AC/HF. It needs to be able to do some serious AV damage considering how easily it is dodged. I suppose there could be an argument for making it wind up and travel faster and reducing the cost, but I like it how it is considering it's a terminator weapon, it has the oomph that it needs and the price to justify that oomph.

OK, thanks everyone for the imput. I myself haven't actually had any problems with it because it's been forever since I last played, but I noticed in recent casts and streams it appeared more frequently and usually made a short work of any tank.

Compared to Tanbustaz barrage it's even underwhelming.. I find the utility almost worthless, if I'm left with Cyclone ML to take out a vehicle, that means I may as well start retreatng.. I'd almost always take a Heavy Flamer instead. It really kills infantry quite fast and with all that inspiration your real AVs will end up hurting tanks a lot more than the Cyclone ML itself, I find...

^ I agree with the above sentiment. I've lost count of the number of times I've lost a dread or a tank to a well-placed rokkit barrage with its painfully tight spread and accuracy, but still with some respectable damage outside the circle to threaten a near-dead vehicle.

meanwhile, it seems the cyclone only really feels that it delivers against super heavy tanks because of its large spread. If you're trying to finish off a retreating normal-sized tank with it chances are you'll end up missing or have the missiles hit terrain instead. (I do remember in campaign I tried to pull off a cyclone missile barrage on a ramp, and all the missiles landed directly in front of Avitus where Dreadnought Davian Thule was standing, immediately incapacitating him, was luzly). If anything I feel its spread should be tightened, maybe somewhere between where it is now and that of a tankbusta barrage.

I destroyed a wartrukk with full hp yesterday (dunno about armour) in one swift barrage in a 1v1 vs Tex yesterday. I had no other AV source and without that it would have been sluggas+stormboyz with trukk support vs 2x scouts+ranged termies with drop pod support. CML FTW! Also, the other good thing about the CML is that it is an upgrade that doesn't affect the range of your ranged weaponry on your termies. The problem with the AC is that it makes one modle have additional range, so often when you right click a foe your termie squad will shoot it with the AC from maximum range, but the storm bolter models are doing nothing. this is inefficient. Additionally with the flamer you have the opposite problem in that a lot of the time the heavy flamer isn't firing due to its inferior range. The CML doesn't affect range values so you can have your ranged termies doing maximum damage with the least amount of micro required.

CML is in a perfect position right now. It does good damage from long range, is lethal to tanks at medium range (as it should be), and has utility for disruption with its spread for large infantry battles.

Tankbusta barrage costs like 48 red right (not sure anymore)? It better be doing some damage for that amount.

Considering the awful SM global nuke, I wouldn't mind paying 50 red for a more accurate barrage, but to each their own.

Some testing results below. Missile scatter is random so there's some variability.

Minimum range testing against infantry
~350 damage to a LVL1 unupgraded tac squad
~500 damage to a LVL1 scout squad with sarge

I didn't bother testing at longer ranges against infantry. It's bound to be pathetic.

VS. a landraider
600 to 650 damage at minimum range
~250 damage at max range

VS. a pred
Testing against a stationary unupgraded pred (700 HP), with the shots centered on the tank
pred at minimum range = kill
pred at medium range (halfway between minimum and max range) = sometimes a kill
pred at maximum range = about 300 to 400 damage

Against a upgraded pred (900 HP), the most I could get out of it was ~800 damage. This includes trying to line up the shots with the rear of the pred. Turning the rear armor towards the terminators didn't increase the incidence of rear armor hits. Maximum damage seems to occur when the barrage is centered on the tank, since some of the missiles will hit the rear given its an AOE attack and some of the missiles will scatter towards the rear. Actually targeting the rear caused some of the missiles to overshoot, reducing overall damage.

(A predator can take rear armor hits from the missiles which is why the CML can kill a 700 HP pred but only do 600-650 HP to a LRC)

jibber jabber
I think the possible saving grace of the weapon is that it is super spammable. It's like a 30 second cooldown. I've made the mistake of conserving the ability and then expecting it to rock the universe when I use it, when it really should be used kind of like spammable tankbusta barrage. How does it compare to a tankbusta barrage? I'M GLAD YOU ASKED!

TB barrage
40 red to use, cooldown on the order of 10 seconds
Tested on a looted tank with HP upgrade (850 HP)
The best damage I could get was about 530 by dropping the rokkits near the rear of the tank. Range didn't matter. I think TB barrage gets its reputation as The Ultimate Vehicle Killer because people aren't factoring in that there are typically some regular salvos fired before and after the barrage.

About the best I could get against an unupgraded LVL1 slugga squad was ~320 damage by clustering them up a little bit behind some cover. I'm sure I could get a little more damage by clustering them even more, but that's fairly pointless.

The More Dakka global and WAAAGH do NOT appear to buff the barrage damage. I guess I can stop using More Dakka just before I fire off a barrage!

Obviously this comparison leaves aside other factors, like the rather long windup time for the CML, the fact that squad losses on TBs affects barrage damage, red cost for the barrage and inherent red cost for terms, the fact TBs are a dedicated AV unit, etc.

edit: Also, max range for the CML seems a bit longer than the barrage, maybe by 5 to 10. We'll need one of our resident code spelunkers to pull the exact value. They're both really long, though. (the weapon range I mean )

Although komparing weaponz is striktly not cool...

That's a good example of how to evaluate weapons/abilities. It will also help you understand how to use it in a game, e.g. the low cooldown on the CML, and will generally increase your game knowledge and so make you a better player.

Some people should really lab stuff before posting worthless crap...

The main point of the lab was to test out the basic capabilities of the CML, since it's often difficult to get experience with late game upgrades on a late game unit.

I threw in the TB comparison because appiah4's comment seemed a little trolly

Great stuff Arbit. I appreciate you spent your free time on it. Many thanks.

You da man Arbit.

Always have appreciated you.

Rockit Barrage comparison is rather pointless because the unit that uses the ability (Tankbustas) also deal constant DPS against the tank in question. More often than not, by the time the barrage lands you will have landed about 2 salvos of missiles as well. The amount of total damage done in the same period will end up MUCH higher than the CML damage, but of course you purposefully neglected that by trying the rockit barrage on your own unit (looted tank) to make sure they won't fire a salvo in the meantime (because that would prove you wrong, heh..)

Who's trolling who now?

Not only are you comparing apples (Anti Infantry unit with AV ability) and oranges (AV unit with AV ability) but you are comparing them only in terms of ability damage and not total dps vs armor.

Yes, the Tankbustas are the ultimate AV unit, yes the barrage IS a million times better. Why? 1. Tankbustas are an AV unit that fire on the move with 75% accuracy, that means you can't kite them with a tank, 2. The Barrage is SUPER accurate, so you can actually hit things pretty well with it, 3. The Barrage's damage does not fall off with range due to great accuracy, 4. Once the barrage is fired, your unit keeps firing rokkits at the tank and keeps damaging it.

Tankbustas are the ultimate av unit. You have to be kidding me.

Tankbustas and Terminators fulfill two completely different roles in two completely different armies.

Can we please stop comparing them?

"can we please stop discussing?"

omg - i really hate the "dont compare, dont compare" whining ...

plz note that comparing is the only senseful way to imagine how strong something should be BECAUSE other things are simmilarly strong...

blance is comparing Races guys ... just accept ist.

appiah4 wrote:Rockit Barrage comparison is rather pointless because the unit that uses the ability (Tankbustas) also deal constant DPS against the tank in question. More often than not, by the time the barrage lands you will have landed about 2 salvos of missiles as well. The amount of total damage done in the same period will end up MUCH higher than the CML damage, but of course you purposefully neglected that by trying the rockit barrage on your own unit (looted tank) to make sure they won't fire a salvo in the meantime (because that would prove you wrong, heh..)

Arbit wrote:Obviously this comparison leaves aside other factors, like the rather long windup time for the CML, the fact that squad losses on TBs affects barrage damage, red cost for the barrage and inherent red cost for terms, the fact TBs are a dedicated AV unit, etc.

As Arbit stated he omitted certain variables in the testing. Don't know what you mean by proving him wrong since he never said one is better than other. He simply showed us a comparison of CML with the most similar ability there is, so I don't get your additional damage from normal TB attack either.

appiah4 wrote:Not only are you comparing apples (Anti Infantry unit with AV ability) and oranges (AV unit with AV ability) but you are comparing them only in terms of ability damage and not total dps vs armor.

appiah4 wrote:Compared to Tanbustaz barrage it's even underwhelming..

You're the one who brought TB up in the first place, so what's your point?

Yep David, that's pretty much what I was going to say except I had to go to bed. I even specifically mentioned the fact that tankbusta's damage will go up due to the additional regular salvos that they'll fire before and/or after. I definitely did not "purposefully neglect" to mention that.

ME wrote:I think TB barrage gets its reputation as The Ultimate Vehicle Killer because people aren't factoring in that there are typically some regular salvos fired before and after the barrage.

Also I'm like 99% sure that tankbustas can't FOTM but I don't feel like testing that this morning.

Arbit wrote:Also I'm like 99% sure that tankbustas can't FOTM but I don't feel like testing that this morning.

They can't FotM.

It's like a 30 second cooldown.

40

Nice post by the way. Well done.

sk4zi wrote:"can we please stop discussing?"

omg - i really hate the "dont compare, dont compare" whining ...

plz note that comparing is the only senseful way to imagine how strong something should be BECAUSE other things are simmilarly strong...

blance is comparing Races guys ... just accept ist.

They serve different purposes. Let me know about that time you used Tankbustas to tank damage and shoot up infantry.

never ^^

i dont play orks.

the barrage thou is ok. and if even the tankbusta barrage does much damage the termie one can also .. - successfully compared

sk4zi wrote:never ^^

i dont play orks.

the barrage thou is ok. and if even the tankbusta barrage does much damage the termie one can also .. - successfully compared

The Terminator one cannot because:

1. It deals terrifying damage and knockback to infantry; it's like a back-mounted Whirlwind.
2. Terminators can do something other than firing rockets at tanks, including killing infantry and punching tanks, thanks to their power fists.