Dawn of War Codex

Bugs:

1. Tier 3 Lictor Flesh hooks don't activate (sometimes) when the target is at max range and the target moves out of range. The energy is spent and the ability gets put on cooldown, but nothing happens to the target. This also happens with the TMs master crafted bolter ability too.

2. Everyone knows that units can get trapped when they exit RA tunnels. The reason for this is when a unit exits the tunnel, it leaves just below it. This allows the unit to bypass terrain (move through it) if the unit is unable to be placed just beneath the tunnel.

I don't know if this is possible, but if you can remove the the pathing requirements of the tunnel (allow units to move over/through it), this might fix the problem. With this change, units would exit the tunnel right on it, instead of below it.

3. Sound Bugs (pun intended). I feel like when I play Tyranids, I SB 1 out of every 3 games. If I play another faction, I don't run into this problem (as frequent).


Ideas / Questions for the community:

1. It's been a long time since the Lictor was a Tier 2 unit. Thoughts on moving him back to Tier 2? All other demi-heroes are tier 2, except the Lictor + Neurothrope.

Why I want this: Tier 3 doesn't seem to be the place for the Lictor. He would perform much better in tier 2 as a counter to other demi-heroes (Libby, Weirdboy) or as a counter to artillery. Now, his stat line would have to be reduced accordingly. In addition, you could give him Tier 3 upgrades that buff his statline to what it is (now) once you reach T3.

2. Possible RA Tunnel upgrades? 33%-50% increase in hp upgrade and makes tunnels "uncrushable". At one point in this game, tunnels couldn't be destroyed by moving over them (by terrain crushing heroes or vehicles), now it's to easy to kill them. The upgrade would be a Tier 1 upgrade at the HQ. It would come with a negative aswell (increase build time of tunnels by X seconds).

Why I want this: I have wanted this for awhile now and I can't really see a negative to adding this besides, "Do we really need it?" Anything can be balanced with the correct cost.

3. Add Burrow Strike as an ability for the RA that is unlocked through one of his Wargears. I was thinking this ability would come with his Tier 2 utility upgrade that increases his speed by 1.5 (forgot the name). This would increase the # of available melee builds for the RA

Why I want this: Increase in viable melee RA builds.

4. Possible Tier 3 upgrade for Tyrant Guard that turns them into Hive Guard (Ranged Unit)? In tabletop, Hiveguard can be upgraded with a mid range, anti-infantry weapon that ignores cover weapon and is a soft counter to vehicles, or with a pure anti armor (electroshock weapon). Both could be options, but do we have the Hive Guard model for it?

Why I want this: It allows Tyrant Guard to better convert to a viable T3 unit with an anti-armor or anti-infantry weapon.


-RR

RedReVenge wrote:1. Tier 3 Lictor Flesh hooks don't activate (sometimes) when the target is at max range and the target moves out of range. The energy is spent and the ability gets put on cooldown, but nothing happens to the target. This also happens with the TMs master crafted bolter ability too.

This has been a bug for forever, it also happens to the Inq and GUO sometimes. Not sure if a solution is possible.

RedReVenge wrote:2. Everyone knows that units can get trapped when they exit RA tunnels. The reason for this is when a unit exits the tunnel, it leaves just below it. This allows the unit to bypass terrain (move through it) if the unit is unable to be placed just beneath the tunnel.

I don't know if this is possible, but if you can remove the the pathing requirements of the tunnel (allow units to move over/through it), this might fix the problem. With this change, units would exit the tunnel right on it, instead of below it.

Novel idea, but if you removed a units footprint would it still be targetable?

RedReVenge wrote:3. Sound Bugs (pun intended). I feel like when I play Tyranids, I SB 1 out of every 3 games. If I play another faction, I don't run into this problem (as frequent).

The only solution for the soundbug is to mute all sounds afaik.

RedReVenge wrote:1. It's been a long time since the Lictor was a Tier 2 unit. Thoughts on moving him back to Tier 2? All other demi-heroes are tier 2, except the Lictor + Neurothrope.

Why I want this: Tier 3 doesn't seem to be the place for the Lictor. He would perform much better in tier 2 as a counter to other demi-heroes (Libby, Weirdboy) or as a counter to artillery. Now, his stat line would have to be reduced accordingly. In addition, you could give him Tier 3 upgrades that buff his statline to what it is (now) once you reach T3.

This seems like it'd be really toxic with the LA, unless you made its fleshhook a T3 upgrade I guess. I'd rather see the Neurothrope in T2 with paroxysm as a T3 upgrade to counter strong single targets. But demi-heroes aren't the biggest issues nids deal with in T2. I'd take better AV solutions or anti-garrison options over that.

RedReVenge wrote:2. Possible RA Tunnel upgrades? 33%-50% increase in hp upgrade and makes tunnels "uncrushable". At one point in this game, tunnels couldn't be destroyed by moving over them (by terrain crushing heroes or vehicles), now it's to easy to kill them. The upgrade would be a Tier 1 upgrade at the HQ. It would come with a negative aswell (increase build time of tunnels by X seconds).

Why I want this: I have wanted this for awhile now and I can't really see a negative to adding this besides, "Do we really need it?" Anything can be balanced with the correct cost.

"Do we really need it?," If this were implemented then it'd make more sense as a wargear benefit but why would someone get it? Tunnels are free, they're good. I could see this if you made them cost red though.

RedReVenge wrote:3. Add Burrow Strike as an ability for the RA that is unlocked through one of his Wargears. I was thinking this ability would come with his Tier 2 utility upgrade that increases his speed by 1.5 (forgot the name). This would increase the # of available melee builds for the RA

Why I want this: Increase in viable melee RA builds.

What's wrong with the burrow ability? It's an energy-free infiltrate that causes knockback and ignores terrain. You can already get it with strengthened sinew (the speed buff).

RedReVenge wrote:4. Possible Tier 3 upgrade for Tyrant Guard that turns them into Hive Guard (Ranged Unit)? In tabletop, Hiveguard can be upgraded with a mid range, anti-infantry weapon that ignores cover weapon and is a soft counter to vehicles, or with a pure anti armor (electroshock weapon). Both could be options, but do we have the Hive Guard model for it?

Why I want this: It allows Tyrant Guard to better convert to a viable T3 unit with an anti-armor or anti-infantry weapon.

Fantastic idea! Will you create the model and animate it? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Hive Guard/Tyrannofex/etc. but all that stuff has to be modeled and animated, not to mention balanced and tested.


Besides the bugs, it seems like all your suggestions are just "nice to haves" but don't really address nid weaknesses or add appreciably to their kit. What's the point?

Nid weakneases.. ok then.. nids are currently the 2nd or 3rd best faction in 1v1s.

Your tunnel idea would probably be pretty hard to implement for the code monkeys.

Ra really doesn't need a burrow strike cus raveners are already cancer enough.

Moving la to t2? Do you really think that would be a good idea?

Inekura wrote:Nid weakneases.. ok then.. nids are currently the 2nd or 3rd best faction in 1v1s.

This is a poor excuse not to implement new ideas. If a mechanic is to strong, you weaken it. If a mechanic is to weak, you strengthen it. Implying that we shouldn't make changes, or give a faction access to new abilities/units because you feel the faction is strong due to imbalances is an incorrect way of balancing something.

Inekura wrote:

Your tunnel idea would probably be pretty hard to implement for the code monkeys.

I haven't seen this code, but knowing how many bugs are already in the game, I bet this will be a problem.

Inekura wrote:
Ra really doesn't need a burrow strike cus raveners are already cancer enough.

Read my first comment. This isn't a good argument for why something shouldn't be added. I think giving RA a burrow strike ability is the most realistic idea I had in my original post. It also diversifies RA's utility options. I may finally consider grabbing this T1, instead of waiting till T3 to grab the Range synapse..

Inekura wrote:
Moving la to t2? Do you really think that would be a good idea?

The original reason why lictors got moved to Tier 3 was because flesh hooks instant killed models, and players could spam them at a cheap cost. 3 Lictors could kill an entire tac squad via abilities. Well that was a long time ago.

I already explained why I want the Lictor in Tier 2. Nerf him to the level of other demi heroes and allow purchasable upgrades in tier 3. Convince me why you think this isn't a good idea.

@Telos, I haven't had time to reply to your entire post. I'll take a look later tonight!

Nids already have a t2 hero. It's called a zoanthrope

Broodwich wrote:Nids already have a t2 hero. It's called a zoanthrope

It's not a hero; you can have 2 of it at the same time.

Why not give RA burrow strike as a starting ability and make tunnels cost red like for eldar. You can let it have the same knockback as regular raveners, but give it a larger CD than you would give a typical teleportation commander?

Do you guys even know what you are asking for with the ra burrowstrike thing?
It's basically the same as giving LC a jump pack.
As of rn the radius of ra kb is so big that you can't dodge it and hormas can close in.
In 1v1s 3 horma 2 ravs is very opressive yet you guys talk about adding another burrowstrike (for free?!?)

RA runnels were nerfed because they were op - hard to kill, free to build, gives massive increase to a race that already has huge inherent map control power in 1v1's.

I disagree with buff idea to make them harder to kill for the sake of well... to make them harder? Other races with nil T1 crushing heroes/units will find it hard to kill.

Telos wrote:

RedReVenge wrote:2. Everyone knows that units can get trapped when they exit RA tunnels. The reason for this is when a unit exits the tunnel, it leaves just below it. This allows the unit to bypass terrain (move through it) if the unit is unable to be placed just beneath the tunnel.

I don't know if this is possible, but if you can remove the the pathing requirements of the tunnel (allow units to move over/through it), this might fix the problem. With this change, units would exit the tunnel right on it, instead of below it.

Novel idea, but if you removed a units footprint would it still be targetable?

I've coded and modded other RTS games in the past, and I know that I could make an object targetable, yet have other units ignore it's pathing requirements. I'm sure there is a way in this game.

Telos wrote:

RedReVenge wrote:3. Add Burrow Strike as an ability for the RA that is unlocked through one of his Wargears. I was thinking this ability would come with his Tier 2 utility upgrade that increases his speed by 1.5 (forgot the name). This would increase the # of available melee builds for the RA

Why I want this: Increase in viable melee RA builds.

What's wrong with the burrow ability? It's an energy-free infiltrate that causes knockback and ignores terrain. You can already get it with strengthened sinew (the speed buff).

The burrow ability doesn't solve any problems that the RA has. Suppression + detection shut it down quite easily. This ability allows him to gain a slight edge in melee engagements.

Giving him a burrow strike option does a few things:

1) Gives him another viable option over damage synapse.
2) Solves the problem addressed earlier.
3) Makes a unusable wargear, usable.
4) Helps push players away from Ravs since it gives them another way of disruption.

Broodwich wrote:Nids already have a t2 hero. It's called a zoanthrope

You mean the shitty artillery unit?? I wouldn't call this a hero by any means.

WoehlkeTAD wrote:Why not give RA burrow strike as a starting ability and make tunnels cost red like for eldar. You can let it have the same knockback as regular raveners, but give it a larger CD than you would give a typical teleportation commander?

It depends on the red cost. ~5-10. Then it could be an option. Remember, the stealth element and the ability to place them anywhere is why they cost red.

Like I said earlier, attach burrow strike to his speed upgrade wargear. It makes the most sense since the damage aura is always taken in that slot.

Inekura wrote:Do you guys even know what you are asking for with the ra burrowstrike thing?
It's basically the same as giving LC a jump pack.
As of rn the radius of ra kb is so big that you can't dodge it and hormas can close in.

Part of the reason, why the knockback is so large is because it's 3 models jumping in. In this case it would be 1 model.

Inekura wrote: In 1v1s 3 horma 2 ravs is very opressive yet you guys talk about adding another burrowstrike (for free?!?)

This quote shows me that you haven't read much of the thread (I explained why this is a poor argument in my last post, but i'll summarize again for you).

Saying not to give a unit an upgrade or ability because X or Y is oppressive is poor balance. It's clear that Adila is already addressing this complaint, so it doesn't make sense to use it as your argument.

Also, no one said to give burrowstrike for free. It would be attached onto a wargear that isn't taken (speed buff).

RedReVenge wrote: Broodwich wrote:
Nids already have a t2 hero. It's called a zoanthrope

You mean the shitty artillery unit?? I wouldn't call this a hero by any means.

Are you crazy? The zoanthrope is amazing, it's long-range, good damage, has no friendly fire, has a shield, an AV ability, and gives basic and healing synapse. At level 4, its healing aura is the highest in the game. It also is the only unit that can repair your monstrous units. It's only real drawback is its fragility, it can be wiped on retreat from ranged fire if it's outflanked.

It's biggest problem right now is that it just doesn't quite fit into the nid meta. If you're ahead, then the TG is almost always the safest pick. It doesn't bleed, self-heals, has great damage, and can charge. Otherwise you need venom brood for AV, or Genestealers for melee superiority or you wanna go T3. It kind of suffers the same problem of other T2 artillery in 1v1 where it's nice to have but there are probably safer, or more necessary options for the MU.

RedReVenge wrote:I've coded and modded other RTS games in the past, and I know that I could make an object targetable, yet have other units ignore it's pathing requirements. I'm sure there is a way in this game.

Nids are the second least played race in Elite (after GK, which players like to ban from games), asking for major changes to the race may be a bit of an ask. There's only a handful of players who even know enough about them to discuss balancing them. But if you know about modding games and can contribute your skills to Elite then you should reach out to Atlas or Adila. I'm sure the dev team would appreciate anyone who could help with modding the game. That's probably the best way to get changes you want to see implemented.

Telos wrote:

RedReVenge wrote: Broodwich wrote:
Nids already have a t2 hero. It's called a zoanthrope

You mean the shitty artillery unit?? I wouldn't call this a hero by any means.

Are you crazy? The zoanthrope is amazing, it's long-range, good damage, has no friendly fire, has a shield, an AV ability, and gives basic and healing synapse. At level 4, its healing aura is the highest in the game. It also is the only unit that can repair your monstrous units. It's only real drawback is its fragility, it can be wiped on retreat from ranged fire if it's outflanked.

It's biggest problem right now is that it just doesn't quite fit into the nid meta. If you're ahead, then the TG is almost always the safest pick. It doesn't bleed, self-heals, has great damage, and can charge. Otherwise you need venom brood for AV, or Genestealers for melee superiority or you wanna go T3. It kind of suffers the same problem of other T2 artillery in 1v1 where it's nice to have but there are probably safer, or more necessary options for the MU.

It's interesting. Whenever someone claims something is great they fail to see it's shortcomings. It's damage output is underwhelming and is almost negligible against heavy infantry. Not to mention that the zoan is pretty bad at killed turrets and units in buildings (unlike other artillery units). The Zoan has slow movement speed and is incredibly fragile. It is easily killed by basically everything and is one of the most punishable units in the game. You can retreat early and still lose the zoan to dedicated melee units / jump units. Unlike other artillery units, it's unable to prevent capping, or disrupt / knockback infantry (this is one of the strongest roles of artillery units). Another big problem is the zoan doesn't fit into Tyranid builds (you go into this).

For these reasons, I've concluded that the Zoan is a bad artillery unit.

So you've concluded that artillery platforms are weak in 1v1. Well, I've played a bunch of 2v2s and 3v3s and I can tell you that the Zoan sucks then those modes aswell.

Telos wrote:

RedReVenge wrote:I've coded and modded other RTS games in the past, and I know that I could make an object targetable, yet have other units ignore it's pathing requirements. I'm sure there is a way in this game.

Nids are the second least played race in Elite (after GK, which players like to ban from games), asking for major changes to the race may be a bit of an ask.

Your logic doesn't make any sense to me since the developers put the most effort into GK each patch and GK is the LEAST played (based on what you say).

Telos wrote: There's only a handful of players who even know enough about them to discuss balancing them. But if you know about modding games and can contribute your skills to Elite then you should reach out to Atlas or Adila. I'm sure the dev team would appreciate anyone who could help with modding the game. That's probably the best way to get changes you want to see implemented.

Exactly, why I'm posting this is the balance section.

tunnel hp upgrade+making it uncrushable would be way op. free webway gates is the best feature of RA, they dont need to be better

Imagine writing such long posts when you have 0 idea of how it works

PianoMan wrote:Imagine writing such long posts when you have 0 idea of how it works

I appreciate you bumping my thread for me.

RedReVenge wrote:I appreciate you bumping my thread for me.

Just some unsolicited advice, you'll need to convince players like Shroom and Piano if you want your nid suggestions taken seriously.

Redrevenge is right though, the Zoan is terrible.

Telos wrote:

RedReVenge wrote:I appreciate you bumping my thread for me.

Just some unsolicited advice, you'll need to convince players like Shroom and Piano if you want your nid suggestions taken seriously.

I've played lots of games with Shroom over the years (I should have brought this up to him yesterday). No idea who Piano is, but I'm thankful for him keeping my thread relevant.

The problem with your comment is that I'm never going to please every player. Look at Boss' post on the patch preview. He mentioned several of Adila's changes and labeled majority of them as bad and unnecessary. I'm sure Adila came to the conclusions that he did based on other community members.

So how I interpret it, it's the community who comes up with advice / suggestions and it's Adila who chooses what he wants to implement into the game.