Dawn of War Codex

In this thread I want to propose a buff to this armor. Let me explain my position.

The Techmarine has 3 armors. Two of them can be purchased in T1. And the third one is purchased in T2. Whether there is no choice between T1 armors and his T2 (his T2 armor is superior compared to his T1 armors) there is a choice between what to dress in T1. Again, need to bring some data to facilitate the discussion.

The Artificier Armor
Cost - 110 requisition and 25 power
What does it give? The proximity mine ability, +200 health for the Techmarine, +0.3 health regeneration for the Techmarine
What does the ability do? The proximity mine ability allows to construct mines that do up to 150 explosive damage in radius 7, suppress infantry, and reduce the speed of vehicles by 70% for 15 seconds; no cooldown, 45 energy to use

Bionics
Cost - 100 requisition and 20 power
What does it give? The powerful sweep ability, +150 health for the Techmarine, +0.25 health regeneration for the Techmarine, +15% melee damage for the Techmarine
What does the ability do? The powerful sweep ability disrupts doing weapon knockback and do 45 damage to enemy units in radius 5 around the Techmarine; cooldown 25 seconds; 25 energy to use

Let me characterize in short words those two wargears. The first wargear makes your hero a bit tankier than the second wargear does (50 more health, better by 0.5 health regeneration). The first wargear gives a highly unreliable ability (hard countered by any detection, can't hit all models of enemy squad due to their dispersion) while the second wargear gives a highly reliable ability that can be used very often (hard to dodge it, can be used whenever you want). So my point is that there has to be an additional benefit for the Artificier Armor to compensate its unreliable ability. I think we might add a very slow energy regeneration bonus. How have I come to that? This wargear is used mostly with ranged weapons and it can be used in combination with the shield to tank damage from range, this wargear allows to construct mines and you need a lot of energy and you spend 45 energy only to construct a single mine. And I propose to give this wargear a very little energy regeneration bonus to help and maintain the shield, to help constructing mines. Honestly it might be not just a little buff. The Chaos Lord can be absurdly tanky with his shield and the armor that allows him to restore energy per each strike and passively regenerates his health! I do understand that the Techmarine is a ranged hero. But his shield is in T2 and does not prevent him from being knocked back. So a bit of help to maintain his shield won't hurt. Let's talk about the number of that passive energy regeneration of course if you support my idea. And if you don't you are free to argue with me as you always are. With the additional benefit the cost might be adjusted. Let's go.

like that !

i also find that placing mines takes very long ... also compared to other mine style abilitys

I agree that it needs a buff. I didn't realise bionics granted 2.5 regen, pretty awesome really.

We could grant the passive energy regen, or there could be a energy regen only when out of combat. Or it could have the price down to 20 power, or anything like that.

@Sk4zi, I think the build time is fine considering how much damage these things can do. Often you can quickly build one in front of your techmarine if you see a melee unit approaching from a distance.

Isn't the difference between health regen 0.05 not 0.5?

The mines are great and useful even in the late game. The health regen allows TM to outshoot pretty much any T1 unit while in green cover. That wargear basically let him lock one VP on his own assuming you don't bring melee + detector. And for 100/25.

Perhaps you should consider nerfing something else instead of turning something balanced into something OP.

Asmon wrote:The mines are great and useful even in the late game. The health regen allows TM to outshoot pretty much any T1 unit while in green cover. That wargear basically let him lock one VP on his own assuming you don't bring melee + detector. And for 100/25.

Perhaps you should consider nerfing something else instead of turning something balanced into something OP.

+1

Unfortunately it's easier to ask for buffs rather than saying something from your race should be nerfed.

I just wish markers wouldn't show up around a mine when detected. Like when the mine is detected the model does indeed show up, but the red marks around the mine don't. So it makes the players have to pay closer attention the the battlefield. Similar the Cats demo charge. You can see it but it does't have a mark telling you "Hey there a mine here."

Reason is that normally i set up units behind the mine to protect against melee units. Usually for my Devs. And when the mine goes off, does it damage all units in the area? As in does it harm your units as well as your enemies?

And I dont mind small energy regen. though. Or a small decrease in energy cost for the mines. From 45 to 40 or even maybe 35.

+1 for what Asmon said. I don't understand why:

Bionics
Powerful sweep energy cost is so low.
Powerful sweep cooldown is so low.

Signum
Dmg of weapon is passively increased.

I understand the range increase on signum, it makes it a melta gun a good choice for many occasions instead of having TM outranged all the time. Moreover, the cast radius of "Mark Target" means he can't just outrange opponents from green cover, so the range increase is somewhat compensated in that regard.

I like using Artificer armor (especially against Eldar). I'm glad the 3.5hp/s regen from retail is gone - that thing was just a nightmare for orks, for example. Nonetheless, some perks the other armor gives is over the top.

Black Relic wrote:
Reason is that normally i set up units behind the mine to protect against melee units. Usually for my Devs. And when the mine goes off, does it damage all units in the area? As in does it harm your units as well as your enemies?

It does kill allied units, yesterday I lost a squad of tacs because they were about to walk through a mine as part of their retreat path and coincidentally my enemy jumped his stormboyz forward just before my tacs reached the mine. It then proceed to blow up and wipe my tacs and only take a few models off the stormboyz :l

Yeah, these things can be disastrous if you have them in your own retreat path and something is chasing one of your units. I had a low HP, 3 man ML tac squad get gibbed because they were retreating right over the mine when some chasing sluggas triggered it.

I don't think artificer's needs a buff. I think this is a 1v1 vs 3v3 perception issue, where artificer mines are more valuable in 1v1 and less so in 3v3 due to the sheer number of detectors on the battlefield.

I think the cooldown and energy usage on powerful sweep is OK. The TM isn't particularly fast has no natural way to escape melee without help from other units or running into a building. Even with the sweep, commanders do a good of tying him up, particularly those that are knockdown immune.

Flash, you are right, I mistook accidentally.

It is a matter of internal balance. The artificier armor got nerfed and bionics got buffed. Bionics took the niche the artificier armor used to fulfill. Although bionics do not overperform the artificier armor in terms of health bonuses the difference is insignificant. And the difference between abilities is significant. Bionics offer a very reliable ability and the artificier armor offers a very unreliable ability. My proposal is supposed to differentiate these armors more, give the more expensive one a small benefit. As it stands now bionics will be a better choice in the most situations.

Why are you doubling the Asmon's post? He stated obvious things and said nothing about my proposal. I don't even think that he understood me. Read again and try to understand that my proposal has nothing to do with the techmarine's tankiness in T1, nor his mines' power. But he got the shield in T2. And being a T2 wargear it gotta be better than all other T1 shields. Yes, it does have a trait but the problem is that the shield does not grant a weapon knockback immunity. My proposal would help to make the shield better. Overall the armor would become more desirable for players who don't get it because of the unreliability.

Raffa, check out my post in combat stimulants thread and don't say such things anymore.

Black Relic, the current detection system is nothing but mockery for a player who uses any kind of mines. It does not require any attention from his opponent to counter mines. But that is a discussion of the thread I created a long time ago. I will link you later when I will get to my PC.

Sub_Zero wrote:
Raffa, check out my post in combat stimulants thread and don't say such things anymore.

He has a reason to say such things, there's way too much SM bias on the forums. (not saying I don't like your suggestions, I think the bionics are kinda overall better than Arti as well)

Kvek wrote:He has a reason to say such things, there's way too much SM bias on the forums.

Yep, so I'm sure everyone can realise why I take suggestions to buff SM with a pinch of salt, moreso than for other races.

Sub_Zero wrote:Raffa, check out my post in combat stimulants thread and don't say such things anymore.

Without going ad hominem here, if you are wondering why I disagree with approximately 90% of your posts, it is because of one of two reasons:

a) they fall into the category described by Kvek
b) you insist on comparing wargears and abilities across heroes and even across races as your basis for deciding what is balanced or not

Independent of whether I actually agree with your suggestions or not, it's very difficult to seriously consider what you're saying when you are making poor comparisons by, say, comparing Combat Stimulants to the Doombringer.

You clearly put some time and thought into your posts, but every race, and hero's wargear/ability/etc.., in this game plays so differently, and gains varying degrees of benefit from any fixed-number heal/damage increase/etc.. that you simply cannot compare them. For example, Spirit Stones heals for more than the default Apothecary Heal and heals more units, despite Eldar having less HP than SM. Ow surely they need a smaller HP heal and SM should get the larger one, as they have fewer models with more HP? Absolutely not, for reasons you can work out if you think through it carefully. But these kinds of conclusions are easily reached by comparing, especially across races.

Don't get me wrong there is good comparison: if you are comparing the damage/effectiveness of, say, the weapons of one hero - that I can understand. Hell, comparing and evaluating the overall effectiveness of heroes is fine too.

But taking out isolated numbers that fit nicely in some invented comparison that suits your argument is not cool. It falls into the same category of "BS theorycrafted situation that is in favour of my argument" that happens way too often here.

It's basically the kind of post that makes me scroll down and find Asmon/Ace/Torpid have already given the response I would have given anyway.

One aspect of Artificer that is often overlooked is the ability of the techmarine to basically stay in a building forever unless there are hard, sustained anti-garrison weapons/abilities around.

The hp regen really snowballs well with the building defensive bonuses.

Now you can do that with Bionics. 50 health and 0.05 health regen don't make a difference, do they?

There is no more distinction between these armors like I equip that armor to disrupt units, I equip that armor to be tanky, I equip that armor to own a unit of choice. Bionics became very good, the Artificier armor got nerfed. Need to add something to compensate the fact that it costs more than Bionics and less reliable.

from now i will allways get bionics instead of artificer

Sub_Zero wrote:Now you can do that with Bionics. 50 health and 0.05 health regen don't make a difference, do they?

There is no more distinction between these armors like I equip that armor to disrupt units, I equip that armor to be tanky, I equip that armor to own a unit of choice. Bionics became very good, the Artificier armor got nerfed. Need to add something to compensate the fact that it costs more than Bionics and less reliable.

The mines are better than you think.

You can set them up to completely throw ranged armies out of position, you can't do that with bionics at all.

Mines are great! BUT! How often do you see them exploding? And when you see them exploding how often they really inflict serious loses? That is the unreliability I am talking about.

Sub_Zero wrote:Why are you doubling the Asmon's post? He stated obvious things and said nothing about my proposal. I don't even think that he understood me. Read again and try to understand that my proposal has nothing to do with the techmarine's tankiness in T1, nor his mines' power. But he got the shield in T2. And being a T2 wargear it gotta be better than all other T1 shields. Yes, it does have a trait but the problem is that the shield does not grant a weapon knockback immunity. My proposal would help to make the shield better. Overall the armor would become more desirable for players who don't get it because of the unreliability.

You're saying I stated obvious thing yet they don't look so obvious to you, since you're asking for buffs. The armor is balanced. Which means no buffs nor nerfs are welcome.

It doesn't do the same job as bionics, which is a melee counter mainly, while mines are area denial tools. They can be trigged even if detected with aoe damage (grenades, heavy plasma) and their snare against vehicles is over the top, while no vehicle can detect on his own.

About the shield: it is already better than most shield. It has a 5 for 1 ratio and reduces accuracy against the TM by 20%, which is a godsend for a ranged commander (though he can turn melee with the axe and do great also). It does not provide kb immunity indeed. But why should it since it was designed to support a ranged hero, that is not supposed to be in melee and therefore is much less supposed to be knocked down?

Now you're suggesting to buff an armor that is balanced, in order to synergize better with a T2 wargear that is already awesome?

As I said earlier, I think you should rather consider the OPness of the 2 other armors. If anything, they are the ones to be tweaked.

Plus, why do you imply that I did not read your whole post? As a matter of fact I did, as anyone should do before replying.

Sorry but taking mines as unreliable is the biggest trash i have read in a long time. If they dont perform the way you would like them to, you probably shouldn't buy mines. Mines profit from clever positioning and reads. If you aren't able to make them work cause you aren't able to read your opponent or because you set them up completely senseless due to the lack of map experience than it is not a fault within the mines.

The ability to set up mines embroadens your options in a game by quite a bit and in contrary to what you say, they are very reliable in what they actually do. Whenever you are controlling a region on the map that you don't want your opponent to get his hands on (again) easily, this is an excellent wargear. Cleverly used they either force detectors or make your opponent suffer through a lot of area denial and let you set up combos. Naturally they won't play well into your hands if you are not able to get grip on some regions of the map without them.

Again how about learning how to utilize stuff before proposing changes? But never mind, i am pretty certain that you, Sub_zero, will find more wargear that you are unfamiliar with, that don't already have a thread posted by you.
I suggest that you give some more thoughts especially regarding tactical abilities about their utility, potency etc.

If anything bionics is too good, it's ability should receive a slight CD increase and the armor should lose some HP regen, aside from that early in the game when your tm get swarmed by hormas/sluggas/shees if you plant a mine at their feet while they are approaching or fighting you in melee can pretty much 1-shot the squad.

Ace of Swords wrote:If anything bionics is too good, it's ability should receive a slight CD increase and the armor should lose some HP regen, aside from that early in the game when your tm get swarmed by hormas/sluggas/shees if you plant a mine at their feet while they are approaching or fighting you in melee can pretty much 1-shot the squad.

I don't think Bionics needs a CD increase.Most wont even get it as Signum is so much better.Its why you almost never see melee TM

The cd is 20s. Any ability with a 20s cd is borderline OP in my book. Now that the TM is by default a ranged commander it's harder to synergize this wargear with the usual playstyle.

But to say that a melee TM is hardly seen because of Signum is wrong imo. It merely results from players' lack of creativity and the newness of TM's melee option.

Asmon wrote:The cd is 20s. Any ability with a 20s cd is borderline OP in my book. Now that the TM is by default a ranged commander it's harder to synergize this wargear with the usual playstyle.

But to say that a melee TM is hardly seen because of Signum is wrong imo. It merely results from players' lack of creativity and the newness of TM's melee option.

Hm? Melee TM has been out for a very long time (At least a year maybe even 2).Most don't use it as hes not as good in melee as other heroes and the fact that having Mark Target is amazingly good.Not to mention hes the most versatile ranged hero.

The cooldown is 25 seconds. It isn't a huge difference, but I was hoping when I started putting up the Codex that people would at least check their numbers before posting. -_-

Wise Windu wrote:The cooldown is 25 seconds. It isn't a huge difference, but I was hoping when I started putting up the Codex that people would at least check their numbers before posting. -_-

But we have you here windu to correct us all xp

Bionics is fine, the problem with Artificer is that it's regeneration bonus over Bionics is not enough to mitigate the lack of a melee counter ability and the mines are really 'meh'. Two ways to go about fixing it:

1. Make it tankier: Either AA should give more HP upfront to make it a better T1 choice, or it should regenerate faster, for better utility in T2. If higher Regen would make it OP in T1 make it scale through tiers? 0,3hp/s in T1, 0,4hp/s in T2, 0,5hp/s in T3 or something?

2. Make mines more useful: It might be my misconception bu the Catachan IEDs do a ton more damage and are a lot more useful. The AA mines are very difficult to place in retreat paths for two reasons; a) they take too long to plant and require your hero to split from your main force which is more difficult to do than sending your Catachans on a side mission, b) They detonate involuntarily - which means units coming out of base usually see/trigger them before they actually retreat through them. Change AA mines from auto-detonate to click-detonate, and you'll see them used a lot more often to snipe low HP or retreating squads.

no click-detonate!

mines are good but it takes too long to place them - i sayed that allready.
its not about placing more mines but the windows of having time to place mines (or even replace them) is mostly not great.
this turns out in maybe one mine if you abbandon a gen-bash or simiar.
i also dont understand why this must be. similar mines are placed much faster, do partly also insane damage or are just more than one.

the energy cost limits the mines anyway. no need for more limitations like taking ages ...

if the bioncs really have a 2.5 reggen, nerf this ... a cooldown increase for his one and only melee counter would be retardet.

Uncle Milty, you are the most rotten person I have seen in a long time. Has your mother ever taught you good manners? Don't you know how you should talk to strangers? If you would behave like that in real life you would have ended up with a broken nose or even something worse. What did I personally do to you? What promted you to act like that? If you would have written your post in a friendly way then I would take it seriously, I even like some of your points and I agree with them. But the way you did only disgusts me and characterize you as a person. And if someone wants to say me that I am behaving quite rudely then you should know now that I don't tolerate such things and I answer back with no respect. Even more I will say you that moderators didn't bother to remove his post, I reported, they should have done it, I would have done it because I moderate a forum in my country and I am familiar with this job as nobody else. And now here you have it. By the way, go ahead and post a message in the Tex's thread. Come on, call him a noob when he claims that some wargear underperforms.

And now I would like to appeal to everyone. May I ask why you take information written in posts as something more than a debated issue? Why do you make it personal? There are tons of examples of this problem. And it does ruin any discussions. And why every "incorrect" in your opinion post makes you mad so you start insulting your opponent? Why do you humiliate him? You mostly europeans here (am I correct?) and your Europe is famous for its tolerance. Gay marriages and other weird stuff that is tolerated. But you prove that wrong. And hence such beliefs are nothing but tales. It yet another time proves that all depends on the person. No matter what nationality the person is, no matter what religion the person sticks to. The only thing that matters is your personality. If you are rotten inside then no other parameter will smooth it out. I seriously think to abandon this forum. The concentration of rotten persons here is off the scale. Peace out, I am done.

dafuq..