Dawn of War Codex

General
* Reduced the VP tick by approximately 15% at all rates
* This is only available on the following maps
- Green Tooth Gorge (2P)
- Calderis Refinery (2P & 4P)
- Medean Cliff Mines (4P)
- Ruins of Argus (4P)
- Calderis Refinery (6P)

Cosmetics
* Added in Space Wolves
* Added in Deathskulls
* Added in Bloodaxes
* Dire Avenger Exarch now utilizes Banshee animations rather than the Warlock (So that they can use the pistol instead of firing the oddball bolts)
* Fixed so that Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Sergeant has his proper visuals
* Flash Gitz now have a different model (again) that reflects their portrait more accurately
* Added in Kilgarns latest Imperial Guard portraits for Imperial Guard

General Changes
* All melee oriented walkers now have melee resistance
* Dreadnoughts + Venerable , Chaos Dreadnought (Claws), Deff Dredd , Carnifex and Wraithlord
* Updated models on Khorne Marines & Tzeentch Marines
* Grey Knight Rhino mounted gunner implemented
* Vindicare Assassin causing sync-errors presumably fixed

Space Marines
* Drop Pod cost increased from 100 to 350
* Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad
* Armor of the Apothecarian bonus speed no longer works while in combat. It only works out of combat (as intended)
* Purification Rite cost reduced from 120/25 to 100/20
* Axe of the Mechanicum damage increased from 95 to 100
* Chainsword & Stormshield cost reduced from 120/25 to 110/20
* Chainsword & Stormshield damage boost increase from 13,73% to 15%
* Flesh over Steel now tracks the target to ease up some issues with the ability itself
* Flesh over Steel energy cost increased from 40 to 70
* Flesh over Steel duration reduced from 8 to 5 seconds
* Teleporter Relay Beacon cost increased from 200/20 to 200/30
* Librarian build time reduced from 35 to 25 seconds (Retail value)
* Added some explosive visuals when Vengeance Rounds are activated on Devastators
* Tactical Sergeant & Assault Marine sergeant upkeep reduced from 12.8 to 10.8 (similiar to AC changes made in previous patch)
* Razorback cost reduced from 300/60 to 280/60
* Increased the cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Terminator health regeneration from 0.5 to 1.0
* Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 to 30,87 dps
* Terminator Power Fist damage increased from 34 to 38 dps
* Assault Terminator Health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.25
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration
* Orbital Bombardment radius 11 damage increased from 150 to 185 (Retail value?)
* Vanguard Jump energy cost reduced from 55 to 50
* Predator Lascannon upgrade reduced from 135/35 to 100/35
* Whirlwind damage has been increased to the following
- Distant from 0.3 to 0.4
- Long from 0.4 to 0.5
- Medium from 0.6 to 0.7
* Whirlwind Hunter-Killer Missile now fires from its weapon instead of its hull (?) *no longer requires line of sight*

Chaos Space Marines
* Grenade Launcher Heretic damage reduced from 45 to 40
* Heretic Autoguns dps increase from 3,61 to 5,25
* Mucus Discharge cost reduced from 125/30 to 100/25
* Plague of Undeath removed and replaced by "Chosen Plague Marine" call-in
* Nurgle Worship will stack ontop of it's existing effect on SHI, Daemons and Vehicles
* Bloodcrusher cost reduced from 350/60 to 300/60
* Plague Sword now grants additional +70 health to the Plague Champion
* Raptor Aspiring Champion now has a Melta Pistol instead of a Plasma Pistol
* Raptor Aspiring Champion weapon changed from Lightning Claw to Power Fist
* Bloodletter pop reduced from 16 to 12
* Plague Marine squad size reduced from 4 to 3 (pop reduced from 16 to 15) (general stats unchanged)
* Chaos Predator Mark of Tzeentch cost reduced from 185/35 to 100/35
* Increased cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Chaos Terminator health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 0.75
* Chaos Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 down to 30,87 dps
* Chaos Terminator melee damage increased from 34 to 40 dps
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration
* Empyreal Abyss radius 5 damage of Unholy Shards increased from 10 to 20

Imperial Guard
* Reduced Heavy Weapon Team pop from 13 to 12
* Lord General Carapace Armor cost reduced from 175/35 to 150/30
* Bunker Health reduced from 750 to 500
* Banewolf cost increased from 350/40 to 350/60
* Spotters no longer detect infiltrated units
* Catachan Ol' reliable renamed to Ol' Unreliable
* Reduced Commissar pop by 2 (from 5 to 3) (upkeep adjusted as well)
* Reduced Sergeant pop by 2 (from 5 to 3) (upkeep adjusted as well)
* Sentinel pop increased from 12 to 15
* Sentinel now detects in a 15 radius
* Chimera cost reduced from 300/65 to 300/60
* Ogryn cost reduced from 450/90 to 425/90
* Sentinel Missile Launcher damage reduced from 70 to 65
* Kaskrin Melta Gun weapon range increased from 20 to 24
* Kasrkin Grenade Launchers now knockdown targets
* Kaskrin Grenade Launchers cooldown increased from 5 to 6
* Kasrkin Weapon Expertise removed and replaced by Kasrkin Sergeant
* Kasrkin Sergeant now grants +100 courage and +0.5 capture rate to the squad
* Baneblade health reduced from 3500 to 3250
* Baneblade turret dps increased from 26,67 to 33,3375 on all turrets
* Baneblade Demolisher cannon reduced from 300 to 225

Eldar
* Farseer is now immune to knockdown/knockback effects while channeling Psychic Storm
* Channeling Runes duration reduced from 15 to 10s
* Witchblade of Kurnous cost adjusted from 125/30 to 100/35
* Witchblade of Kurnous damage increased from 53(?) to 80 (dps 60)
* Banshee health increased from 625 to 750 (125 to 150 hp per model)
* Banshee Aspect Upgrade health increase decreased from 30% to 10%
* Banshee Exarch health increased from 200 to 240
* Autarch Fusion Gun dps increased from 28 to 33,6
* Warp Spider fist dps increased from 8,57 to 11
* Falcon cost reduced from 360/90 to 360/80
* Falcon vision range increased from 40 to 45
* Dark Reaper Tempest Launcher removed and incorporated into the Exarch
* Dark Reaper Exarch cost increased from 65/15 to 85/25
* Fire Dragon Exarch no longer increases the movement speed of the squad
* Fire Dragon Exarch now increases the weapon range by 4
* Seer Council cost reduced from 650/100 to 550/100
* D-Cannon damage on medium(AoE) from 0.6 to 0.5

Grey Knights
* Nemesis Warding Staff dps reduced from 83,33 to 75
* Blessed Aegis cost reduced from 100/25 to 100/20
* Purgation Squad Incinerator courage damage increased from 22.5 to 24
* Astral Aim range increase from 15% to 25% - no longer increases vision range
* Astral Aim duration increased from 7 to 15 seconds
* Astral Aim cooldown increased from 40 to 60 seconds
* Psycanons now deal 0.75 damage to targets at distant(?) and 1.0 at rest
* ^ Psycanon Distant is ONLY effected when Astral Aim is active (past 38 range)
* Nemesis Force Halberd cost reduced from 150/50 to 150/35
* Nemesis Vortex no longer effects vehicles
* Stormtrooper Grenade Launcher damage reduced from 45 to 40
* Stormtrooper Sergeant cost increased from 65/15 to 65/25
* Stormtrooper Sergeant no longer grants bonus movement speed bonus to the squad
* Stormtrooper Sergeant now grants "Frag Grenades" - which deals 20 explosive_pvp damage in the radius and knockdowns the target in the area. This grenade has no timer and has a 24 range cast. Has a minimum of 5 radius to avoid "nade-spiking"
* Stormtrooper Mines has been removed from the game
* Stormtrooper Overcharge reworked
- Now fires a single overcharged Plasma Shot at the target. Dealing 20 plasma_pvp damage in a radius of 3 of the target location, and suppresses the unit for 3 seconds. Cooldown 10 seconds , energy cost 60 , range 30
* Strike Squad ranged damage modifer from level increased from 1.0|1.05|1.10|0.16 to the following; 1.0|1.07|1.14|1.20|
* Nemesis Focus on Strike Squad has been removed and replaced by Psybolts Ammunition
- Now improves the ranged damage of the squad by 15% and changes the Justicar damage from piercing_pvp to plasma_pvp
- Burst duration from 0 to 2 and cooldown from 0.7 to 1.0 to give more direct visual indication that the squad has been upgraded to PsyBolts
* Energy Burst cooldown decreased from 120 to 80s
* GK Rhino build time increased from 30 to 32
* GK Rhino cost increased from 180/20 to 180/30
* GK Rhino is now Heavy Infantry instead of Super Heavy Infantry
* Interceptor Squad Incinerator melee damage increased from 12 to 20
* Purge now has a more distinguishable effect when it is cast (An eldritch bolt?)
* Might of Titan no longer increases melee damage done
* Might of Titan increases melee skill by +10 and reduces damage taken by 20%
* Grey Knight Dreadnought Multi-Melta replaced with Hurricane Bolter
* GK Dreadnought Plasma Cannon range increased from 35 to 38
* GK Dreadnought Plasma Cannon damage reduced from 210 to 180
* GK Dreadnought Maelstrom now knockbacks all units effected by it
* GK Dreadnought Inferno Cannon courage damage increased from 20 to 30
* Terminator & Paladin mounted-storm bolters now fire faster (dps unchanged)
* Terminator Hammerhand removed and replaced by Holocaust
* Holocaust - The Terminators pulls target near the target viccinity up in the air, igniting them in blue fire(vfxs). Targets lifted take 25% less incoming damage and suffer 5 plasma_pvp damage. Useful for setting up abilities. Cooldown 80s , energy cost 60
* Terminator Halberd dps reduced from 53,33 to 45 dps
* Terminator & Paladin Psycanon variant damage increased from 20 to 25
* Terminator & Paladin Incinerator damage reduced from 17 to 15
* Paladins are now capped at 1
* Paladin AoE Healing regeneration buff removed and replaced by 'Holy Grounds'
* Holy Grounds now requires "Liber Daemonica" upgrade (Similiar to Terminators)
* Holy Grounds - Targets an area in short proximity of the Paladin to be holy grounds which only the pure can stand in. In this area, enemies suffer a movement speed penalty by -1 and allied units gain a bonus movement speed of +1.5 (Unfinished)

Orks
* Ork Waagh cost reduced from 18 to 15
* Deff Dredd Rampage movement speed bonus reduced from 5 to 4
* Bang Bang Hammer no longer effects vehicles (Deffredd ex.)
* Waaagh Banner cost reduced from 75/5 to 75 requisition only
* Flash Gitz are now considered Heavy Infantry instead of Infantry
* Warp Vomit no longer amplifies the damage the targets take
* Deff Rolla percentage to instantly kill a unit lowered from 3% to 2%

Tyranids
* Feeder Tendril cost adjusted from 110/25 to 100/30
* Toxic Miasma (LA) cost reduced from 120/25 to 100/20
* Scythe now deals 10 damage ontop of it's existing effects in radius 10
* Acid Splatter cost reduced from 135/30 to 110/30
* Endless Swarm build time increased from 15 to 40s
* Ravener build time reduced from 30 to 24 seconds
* Ravener Deverour cost reduced from 75/20 to 50/15
* Warrior Brood & Venom Brood health reduced from 1050 to 990
* Genestealer cost reduced from 450/45 to 425/45
* Reduced movement speed bonus from Frenzy from 3 to 2
* Zoanthrope Warp Blast cooldown increased from 15 to 30
* Venom Brood cost increased from 300 to 300/15
* Venom Brood Ranged Synapse adjusted from 50/40 to 100/25
* Ravener Alpha Hive Node Spore thing range reduced from 24 to 20
* Area of Effect on Bio-Plasma on Carnifex and Hive Tyrants increased from 5 to 6
* Bio-Plasma damage reduced from 90 to 80 (HT only)
* Bio-Plasma cooldown decreased from 45 to 40s (HT only)
* Venom Cannon Carnifex range increased from 44 to 47
* Improved Synapse range increased from 25 to 32 (Matches Basic Synapse)


Somewhat finished.

Looking really really good so far. Only one complaint "Grey Knight Dreadnought Multi-Melta replaced with Hurricane Bolter"

So this means default GK dreads will be worse than default chaos dreads for dealing with other walkers? That's pretty terrible considering the fact that they are so strong vs other vehicles is often why they're purchased.

Well, I think the Grey Knights overall AV department is heavily lifted up, whereas their single-target damage is somewhat still lacklustering.

The most important thing to get into the GK's overall functional roster atm is the functionable Rhino mounted gunner, which allows it to have a much overall flexible and better transition from T1 into T2, which can allow GK to have a very mobile AV unit.

Caeltos, could I inquire as to why are you nerfing the terminators? From what I've read, assault terminators aren't working because they, for lack of a more polite expression, can't fight melee squads for sh*t. Why would making them even worse in close combat help, I don't know. Maybe you could have simply given them 70 melee skill? I mean, they're elite melee units and they are less skilled in close combat than assault marines.

The ranged terminators (both Imperial and Chaos); why the change? How would making them worse at doing their job (shooting) and making them better at other things (punching) benefit gameplay? It's not as if they can't fight in melee; they have power fists. Also, now assault terminators have just 2 DPS more than normal terminators in melee. Why would I ever want Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators when standard Terminators hit (no pun intended) just as hard and have ranged weapons?

On the strike squad; I thought they were supposed to be decent in close combat? They even have a special attack and all. Can we have both psybolts and Nemesis Focus?

* Tarantula Missile Turret reworked;
- Damage reduced from 130 to 35
- Splash increased from 1 to 3
- Now causes knockback to units in the area (does not effect friendly units)
- Reduces reload duration from 6 to 3

Hmm, not sure if I'm a fan of this. I like the Missle Turret very much. :l

So, it performs similar to a (miniature ) whirl wind now?

* Grey Knight Dreadnought Multi-Melta replaced with Hurricane Bolter

More diversity between Marines; Awesome; I asume it supresses?

* Axe of the Mechanicum damage increased from 95 to 100

Not going to complain about that, but i'd like to suggest to have the Techmarine use Sword Animations instead of the Axe Animations.
( Similar to the change that is supposed to come to raptors )
I feel that hunched over, agressive stance just isnt quite as fitting.
Edit: would love to see a small rapair speed bonus on the axe, instead of a damage bonus tbh. Axe TM lacks a bit vehicle synergy right now.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/ ... itsu-1.jpg

Caeltos, could I inquire as to why are you nerfing the terminators? From what I've read, assault terminators aren't working because they, for lack of a more polite expression, fight melee squads for sh*t. Why would making them even worse in close combat help, I don't know. Maybe you could have simply given them 70 melee skill? I mean, they're elite melee units and they are less skilled in close combat than assault marines.

I'm not quite sure as to why you think they're getting nerfed. For example, their health regeneration value is increased more then three times the amount. For ex. and clarification on the health regeneration value changes;

0.5 translates into the following amount of health restored per minute;
300 health restored (OLD)
1.75 health regeneration
900 Health restored (NEW) (Def. new Terminator health values)
1050 Health restored (NEW) (AT with hammers)

This new change more or less completely makes Terminator the most durable and sustain potent units in the game. The off-set of this is of course that they're not going to dish out as much damage as before, but the longer the fight is, the more damage they will inflict.

The ranged terminators (both Imperial and Chaos); why the change? How would making them worse at doing their job (shooting) and making them better at other things (punching) benefit gameplay? It's not as if they can't fight in melee; they have power fists. Also, now assault terminators have just 2 DPS more than normal terminators in melee. Why would I ever want Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators when standard Terminators hit (no pun intended) just as hard and have ranged weapons?

It's readressing the kill potential of late-game units. Their melee damage goes up abit in return to give them more potency to fight back their counterparts and maybe trade-abit better economically in casualties. The goal is not to make them beat their counterparts, but it's to give the chance to fight back with better trades.

Regular Terminators won't have the sustain potency of Assault Terminators, nor the health to commit to melee confrontations against dedicated melee units, and that's where the Assault Terminator shines. They could have the equal amount of damage in melee for all what's worth, there's still aspects towards the different health comparison, and misc. melee attributes of the Assault Terminators that warrants the tactical decision if you want to get them or not.

On the strike squad; I thought they were supposed to be decent in close combat? They even have a special attack and all. Can we have both psybolts and Nemesis Focus?

They're decent in melee in the early-game, and that's okay. They can put up a fight in even mid-game against some units, but you have alot of units that are potent melee fighters, so having Strike Squad as another unit that is potent in melee is abit overlapping and abit of an overbundance. This gives GK abit more flexible ranged-oriented damage builds with abit more of a punch, as it's something they're lacking. They're very melee oriented at the moment, and melee is really a risky overall build for any army composition.

Hmm, not sure if I'm a fan of this. I like the Missle Turret very much. :l

So, it performs similar to a (miniature ) whirl wind now?

The values aren't set in stone. But the new intended change of the Missile Turret is going to alot more faster in it's rate of fire, making it more potent at dealing with vehicles in terms of sustained damage, rather than burst-damage (where SM has plentiful of). It's still a very dedicated anti-vehicle platform, the anti-infantry/distruption is more of a luxury addition to when it's potentially fullfilled it's task to deal with a vehicle.

More diversity between Marines; Awesome; I asume it supresses?

Courage damage sure, suppresses immediately and stuff like that - no. You'll still need more courage damage to make it suppress. If you want a more mobile-anti blob supression type of tool, the Inferno Cannon is designed to be that unit. Altho, it's performance is abit wonky at best in it's current state. But with the new changes towards GKs, it might not need more changes, since their damage/crowd control is more reliant and improved.

Caeltos wrote:

Caeltos, could I inquire as to why are you nerfing the terminators? From what I've read, assault terminators aren't working because they, for lack of a more polite expression, fight melee squads for sh*t. Why would making them even worse in close combat help, I don't know. Maybe you could have simply given them 70 melee skill? I mean, they're elite melee units and they are less skilled in close combat than assault marines.

I'm not quite sure as to why you think they're getting nerfed. For example, their health regeneration value is increased more then three times the amount. For ex. and clarification on the health regeneration value changes;

0.5 translates into the following amount of health restored per minute;
300 health restored (OLD)
1.75 health regeneration
900 Health restored (NEW) (Def. new Terminator health values)
1050 Health restored (NEW) (AT with hammers)

This new change more or less completely makes Terminator the most durable and sustain potent units in the game. The off-set of this is of course that they're not going to dish out as much damage as before, but the longer the fight is, the more damage they will inflict.

The ranged terminators (both Imperial and Chaos); why the change? How would making them worse at doing their job (shooting) and making them better at other things (punching) benefit gameplay? It's not as if they can't fight in melee; they have power fists. Also, now assault terminators have just 2 DPS more than normal terminators in melee. Why would I ever want Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators when standard Terminators hit (no pun intended) just as hard and have ranged weapons?

It's readressing the kill potential of late-game units. Their melee damage goes up abit in return to give them more potency to fight back their counterparts and maybe trade-abit better economically in casualties. The goal is not to make them beat their counterparts, but it's to give the chance to fight back with better trades.

Regular Terminators won't have the sustain potency of Assault Terminators, nor the health to commit to melee confrontations against dedicated melee units, and that's where the Assault Terminator shines. They could have the equal amount of damage in melee for all what's worth, there's still aspects towards the different health comparison, and misc. melee attributes of the Assault Terminators that warrants the tactical decision if you want to get them or not.

So... your intent is to trade damage for durability. Considering space marines, it now sounds like a good plan. Would still like 70 melee skill though; veteran close combat troops, after all. But it all makes sense now. Thanks.

I know your list isn't finished, but you could definitely check my most recent thread for a few ideas if you need them. For instance:

Surely you can see that HT bioplasma is useless. VC fex could use a range increase of 3 and its bioplasma could also use an upgrade in its reliability.
Tyrant Guard and zoanthrope both overperform at their costs. Surely at least one of them needs a cost increase.
Mekboy landmines snare vehicles for like 20 seconds. That's absurd.

etc etc

I'm on vacation and feel like a major nerd right now... post more later.

Caeltos wrote:Well, I think the Grey Knights overall AV department is heavily lifted up, whereas their single-target damage is somewhat still lacklustering.

The most important thing to get into the GK's overall functional roster atm is the functionable Rhino mounted gunner, which allows it to have a much overall flexible and better transition from T1 into T2, which can allow GK to have a very mobile AV unit.

Would it be possible to have the melta as an upgrade so that the GK dread is still viable as an AV option. I know you're trying to push the AV option more onto the rhino, maybe it will all make more sense once the rhino is properly fleshed out.

Caeltos wrote:
Space Marines
* Increased the cooldown of Terminator call-in from 300 to 420 seconds
* Terminator health regeneration from 0.5 to 1.5
* Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 to 30 dps
* Terminator Power Fist damage increased from 34 to 38 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer reduced from 45 to 40 dps
* Assault Terminator Health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.75
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration

Meaning Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws got a nerf, right? Why? They get nothing, they still got the same shitty HP regeneration, no new ability, yet you have to wait 7 mins to get yet another one of those.

The problem with Assault Terminators with Hammers is not the fact that they don't have enough hp, the prob is that they are too slow to catch anything apart from a Baneblade or a Landraider.

Yet I don't see any changes to some of their counterparts lets say the nobz or stuff that is still broken like the warp vomit from the weird boy or the still kinda shitty librarian.

What about the broken/op deff rolla from daisy?

So yeah, I might sound kinda pissed or even a bit hostile, but sorry I don't think that these changes are good.

Caeltos wrote:* Purification Rite cost reduced from 120/25 to 100/20

You know what I think this is a good idea - this will make kitting out the Apo in T1 and scaling decently with it more reasonable.

Caeltos wrote:- Damage reduced from 130 to 35
- Splash increased from 1 to 3
- Now causes knockback to units in the area (does not effect friendly units)
- Reduces reload duration from 6 to 3

Please make it affect friendly units, otherwise fire support for ASM will probably go OTT. I'm looking forward to this.

Caeltos wrote:* Terminator health regeneration from 0.5 to 1.5
* Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 to 30 dps
* Terminator Power Fist damage increased from 34 to 38 dps
* Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer reduced from 45 to 40 dps
* Assault Terminator Health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.75
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration
* Orbital Bombardment radius 11 damage increased from 150 to 200

* Chaos Terminator health regeneration increased from 0.5 to 1.5
* Chaos Terminator ranged damage reduced from 33,87 down to 28 dps
* Chaos Terminator melee damage increased from 34 to 40 dps
* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration

I've mentioned what I think of these changes already. I don't necessarily agree, but in combination with the changed VP ticker I can see where you're coming from so I'm gonna give these quite a bit of attention before leaving some dedicated feedback - got an idea how these will pan out but these are still significant changes to units which have been unchanged for so long, so this will need quite a lot of analysis after quite a few games to judge accurately.

Now I know this isn't your preferred subject, but I'd like to get an answer on one or two changes that is not in this log, because for me these are overdue and overshadowing the listed changes:

Mek mines - the snare on these is ridonculous, I can't fathom how these haven't been seriously changed yet as they're just gamechanging.

Nurgle Worship - giving benefit to Daemons and Scaling with tiers. I like the Plague Champion, he's fun and has a cool playstyle, but I cannot take him in seriously competitive games because his worship just tails off too much and, consequently, his synergy with the rest of the Chaos army is hugely inferior to the sorcerer and CL from T2 onwards and it is no coincidence that the two Chaos heroes with useful worships are the two competitive ones. I've gone on about this for a long time and it is widely agreed among basically every player that has played chaos for any length of time, that this is a long overdue change. Seriously man ask Noisy about this he plays the PC too and I have played him so many times with the PC in 1v1 see what he has to say on it, and the differences in games between the PC and other Chaos heroes. I don't want to sound like I'm whining but if it's not getting changed (and having seen these patch notes I'm guessing it isn't), I'd like to hear your reasoning on it please.

MaxPower wrote:The problem with Assault Terminators with Hammers is not the fact that they don't have enough hp, the prob is that they are too slow to catch anything apart from a Baneblade or a Landraider.

I disagree. I don't think the purpose of hammernators is to kill stuff. Rather it's to serve as a damage sponge and melee counter-initiation. Much like the GUO. And this change will only further their potential in this role. Putting that pressure they exert onto the foe just as early despite them now having a heavier load!

MaxPower wrote:Yet I don't see any changes to some of their counterparts lets say the nobz or stuff that is still broken like the warp vomit from the weird boy or the still kinda shitty librarian.

Hence this reasoning is fallacious since they are false counterparts.

I don't have all my ideas written down so I'm probably missing plenty of stuff ^^


I hope we can still play those maps under normal vps?

I don't think a cooldown increase on the terminator call-in is necessary.
They are already limited by their high cost and red cost unlike other T3 "super-units".

Change tactical sarge MS to 70. Looking into the files he has 60 atm.

Librarian is still shit :p --> suggestions

The Eldar shurycan platform team still has a low pop cost for no reason I can think of.

The venom brood changes seem weird to me.
Aren't they meant to be the cheap av like the Ork tankbustas?
Why do you think the ranged synapse needs a cost increase?

As much as I hate the hive node. Wasn't that range kinda intended to be such a bitch? For it to promote close combat?

Make passive damage auras not damage mines. It's silly ^^

Mek mines, as said before, snare way too long.

Changes to Daisy?

Raffa wrote:Please make it affect friendly units, otherwise fire support for ASM will probably go OTT. I'm looking forward to this.

Whut? It's a turret!

Raffa wrote:Nurgle Worship

You are highly underestimating the PC overall sustainability and the suggestions you made are overbuffing this worship. It wouldn't be bad to get some small buff though. Like the ones that I suggested maybe? :p

I think the venom brood changes are exceptionally wise. It's highly frustratingly that a unit with such good AV potential can be purchased at such a negligible detriment to the nid army. Why is it negligible? Two reasons, firstly getting a venom brood for AV costs no power whatsoever, this is unlike most other hard AV sources which have an associated power cost. Secondly the squad has the potential to buff the combat efficiency of other squads by quite a large amount (especially considering the cost [I am aware of the upkeep of venoms, but then they bleed much less than the alternative - 2 gaunts, and have less upkeep too]). The ranged synapse upgrade now has a greater emphasis on req because the ranged synapse upgrade affects the combat potency of tyranids within t2 and therefore it should be an upgrade with a significant cost to the tyranids in t2 - much like getting sergeants on your marine squads. However, unlike SM tyranids don't have much trouble gathering up 40 power in T2. Their T2 is much more req intensive and the change exhibits this well, hampering the tyranid T2 eco in a way that is fair considering how much the upgrade grants in terms of a better T2 fighting force.

Caeltos wrote:Cosmetics
* Added in Space Wolves
* Added in Deathskulls
* Added in Bloodaxes

Caeltos wrote:* Lightning Claw now reduces health regeneration back to 0.5 health regeneration
* Empyreal Abyss radius 5 damage of Unholy Shards increased from 10 to 20

I didn't quite get this two.
What's the Unholy Shards? You mean it does more damage in the centre?

And Lighting Claw now block regeneration? It's the Lighting Claws from the Chaos Lord, from the Terminators or both?

@Torpid.

Venoms are worse than tankbustas, yet they only cost 300req too.
And with this change will cost 5 power to reinforce as well.
Not to mention the downside of synapse bombs :p

I don't mind the change much. I quite like it. I was more asking Caeltos' view ^^
I just think tankbustas should get the long overdue power cost as well.

Venoms bleed much less than the alternative? Is there an alternative then?
I don't get any of that section...

ChrisNihilus wrote:What's the Unholy Shards? You mean it does more damage in the centre?

It's the damage on the outer rings -->

After a 5 second delay, creates a horrific rift to the Warp for 15 seconds. Units in radius 12 of the rift are subject to 25 heavy melee damage every second, while those in radius 5 trapped within the Warp itself take an additional 200 heavy melee damage per second. Every second there is an 80% chance an non-retreating infantry unit in radius 30 of the rift will be lashed by unholy chains, pulled into the abyss with ability knockback. Those escaping the profane circle are not yet safe, as the tainted shards that erupt from the ground around the rift also do 7 heavy melee damage every second to non-building targets in radius 5. 120 second cooldown.

As you can see the data here is outdated as it states 7 damage instead of the 10 Caeltos mentioned. source

ChrisNihilus wrote:And Lighting Claw now block regeneration? It's the Lighting Claws from the Chaos Lord, from the Terminators or both?

Its for the LC's on the loyalist and traitor terminators.

MaxPower wrote:
Yet I don't see any changes to some of their counterparts lets say the nobz or stuff that is still broken like the warp vomit from the weird boy or the still kinda shitty librarian.



So yeah, I might sound kinda pissed or even a bit hostile, but sorry I don't think that these changes are good.

Shitty librarisn everywhere
Literally everywhere
In every single game i get a librarian(when im playing SM ofc) and i freaking can't see how he is underpowered
Probably going to rename myself to a Shitty Librarian though.

And the changes are quite good. expect the fact that there are no ork nerfs, though I'm too lazy to make a thread about them so w/e

Surely you can see that HT bioplasma is useless. VC fex could use a range increase of 3 and its bioplasma could also use an upgrade in its reliability.
Tyrant Guard and zoanthrope both overperform at their costs. Surely at least one of them needs a cost increase.
Mekboy landmines snare vehicles for like 20 seconds. That's absurd.

To be honest, I think the HT Bio-Plasma has the tendency to have a great pay-off if you just combine it with abilities. It already has an impressive range, and there's just so much you can do to much projectile-based abilities useful (which is infact, limited). We tried adressing it a long time ago, and it's far better now then it was before, ultimately - it might not be at a perfect state, but like I said - it's a more difficult thing to adjust then you would expect.

Mekboy Landmines might snare vehicles for a very long time, but quite frankly, I barely ever see it turn the games in their favor. It does almost no damage, and people always have detectors around, making the snare/damage from the mines almost heavily neglectable. It's frustrating when it happends, but if you know he's invested in mines, you ought to be stupid not to purchase at least one detector squad.

Meaning Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws got a nerf, right? Why? They get nothing, they still got the same shitty HP regeneration, no new ability, yet you have to wait 7 mins to get yet another one of those.

Undetermined what I want to do with them. There's two approaches, either they get to keep their more "heavy-damage" role and function more as "glass-cannons". They still do wonders in their current state, and being unchanged wouldn't reduce their performance. Or like I mentioned before, reduce some of their kill potential in favor of sustainability, but I don't think it'd be going hand-in-hand with the natural design of Lightning Claws tho.

The problem with Assault Terminators with Hammers is not the fact that they don't have enough hp, the prob is that they are too slow to catch anything apart from a Baneblade or a Landraider.

Well, with the new health regeneration - You'll be able to pressure ALOT more and take more chances and get out safetly due to their improved health regeneration. Improved movement speed and alike would just improve their kill potential which I'm trying to stray away from.

Yet I don't see any changes to some of their counterparts lets say the nobz or stuff that is still broken like the warp vomit from the weird boy or the still kinda shitty librarian.

You don't neccasarily have to change a unit if you adjust another unit accordingly to perform better against them. For ex. the health regeneration, like I've mentioned before, gives you an incredibly good sustainability, meaning you'll be able to go toe-to-toe against melee units alot better.

What about the broken/op deff rolla from daisy?

Primarily looking into the Deff Rolla % that insta-gibs models. It's supposedly 3% or so, but that's probably because it's hitting so many times, making the numbers are abit missleading. Will have to look it up before I make any changes. Like I said, tentative balance changes. WIP stuff.

Would it be possible to have the melta as an upgrade so that the GK dread is still viable as an AV option. I know you're trying to push the AV option more onto the rhino, maybe it will all make more sense once the rhino is properly fleshed out.

The Rhino is a really important key-unit to alot of the changes I want to make the Grey Knights. It all has to mix together and blend like a nice fruitcake.

Nurgle Worship - giving benefit to Daemons and Scaling with tiers. I like the Plague Champion, he's fun and has a cool playstyle, but I cannot take him in seriously competitive games because his worship just tails off too much and, consequently, his synergy with the rest of the Chaos army is hugely inferior to the sorcerer and CL from T2 onwards and it is no coincidence that the two Chaos heroes with useful worships are the two competitive ones. I've gone on about this for a long time and it is widely agreed among basically every player that has played chaos for any length of time, that this is a long overdue change. Seriously man ask Noisy about this he plays the PC too and I have played him so many times with the PC in 1v1 see what he has to say on it, and the differences in games between the PC and other Chaos heroes. I don't want to sound like I'm whining but if it's not getting changed (and having seen these patch notes I'm guessing it isn't), I'd like to hear your reasoning on it please.

I've given Nurgle Worship alot of thought, and I reduce it's performance in the early-game, as well it's deamon health regeneration (alongside with the other worships) to adjust the overall sustainability of Chaos T2. In T1, the Nurgle Worship + Heavy Cover is completely unshakeable, and now it's current state, with proper support - is still pretty damn good. However, with Plague Marine health regeneration improvements, they're more likely to become a more annoying unit to deal with, esp if the Nurgle Worship is to be improved as well and progressively even scale with Tiers. This can lead to some very nasty Plague Marine spam-a'a deluxe which is just so god damn annoying to face + boring to play with (albeit subjective)

So in the end, it's really just a more annoying worship to try to tackle on, whereas Khorne and Tzeentch worships are pretty more straightforward and easier to adjust accordingly that doesn't neccasrarily jeopardise the overall sustainability of an army faction, and sustain in the game - is so important to the outcome of a game.

So another thing that sprung to mind was, how about giving Nurgle something that's useful for vehicle units? Well - that's another problematic thing. Would it give health regeneration? Even then, it wouldn't matter if it was a Crusher or a Great Unclean One. So you'll look for other alternatives, which would be more beneficial and most importantly as well, something that fits alongside the Nurgle theme.

I couldn't really come up with a working solution that ultimately makes sense to implement. You need an ability that trades Heretic support / melee confrontation helping out for an ex. a vehicle for the sake of gaining speed or invisibility.

- The Khorne Speed helps you kite & chase - Heretics not deciding to engage in melee support might just tip the scale to help survive a specific worshipping unit.
- The Tzeentch Shrine helps you ambush & survive units to mitigate incoming damage. It just has overall alot of functionality and uses.

Now, the Nurgle worship is more dedicated around your infantry-based army. And it could keep that functionality, but having it effect for an ex. vehicles is not something that's probably feasible. And improving it's health regeneration is really risky business.

I hope we can still play those maps under normal vps?

Yes, should be possible. It's just a different map (if all goes well)

Librarian is still shit :p

To be honest, I really personally love the Librarian. He's just abit underused, but I've seen some really great plays from him the past few weeks when he's popped up. Situational possibly, but not a no-brainer unit.

The venom brood changes seem weird to me.
Aren't they meant to be the cheap av like the Ork tankbustas?
Why do you think the ranged synapse needs a cost increase

Currently Venom Brood has no power reinf. cost. The change is meant to readjust the overall power cost effiency and timings to some minor degree, and fluxuate and change up some of the tyranid eco structure come mid-game. More req cost, means more overall economical damage you can pull out.

As much as I hate the hive node. Wasn't that range kinda intended to be such a bitch? For it to promote close combat?

You'll have to ask Relic about it. I just know it's originally used to mitigate ranged-damage, not negate it's counters by it's outgoing ranged damage. (Flamers for ex.)

MaxPower wrote:The problem with Assault Terminators with Hammers is not the fact that they don't have enough hp, the prob is that they are too slow to catch anything apart from a Baneblade or a Landraider.

I think there is a Librarian or something that can help you out with this.

I think increasing the price on thropes and TGs is a better way to go than putting that economical pressure on venom broods. I mean, increasing TG and thrope price by 10 power each for example. Also, tex mentioned VC fex, are you planning on increasing its range?

About termies, i agree with riku. Termies are already limited in how often you can field them not only by timer but also by red (350 red!) where as other super units or 'super infantries' aren't.

Indrid wrote:I think there is a Librarian or something that can help you out with this.

Which means that I have to invest a lot of req and power into a not so great unit, id rather go for a dread instead which atleast has some impact on the battlefield.

Might just be my playstyle but i think that the dread has more to offer compared to the librarian and yes a fully kitted out librarian costs nearly as much as a dread.

EDIT:

So GK Termintaors are not getting anything like a build time/call in nerf, which means that they are still able to be spammed? Could you explain why they didnt get a nerf like that?

Sounds like terminators supported by an apo healing aura are going to be awesome, unless I'm missing something

Nurgle worship

• What about giving the affected units a mini aura of decay?
  And by that I mean very little damage and (about?) close combat range.
• Or if possible add a very small DoT to affected units' close combat attacks.
• Or add a very small repair bonus to vehicles.
  It will only affect the pred, dread and LRP but would be nice to be repairing while healing up your units while the PC is still free to repair any damage as well.
• Or an AoE very small DoT affecting enemy units in worship range.

Any of these would be cool to try out I think. (Ordered in personal preference.)


Librarian
I beg you, please reconsider some changes to this guy. suggestions
His performance for cost is just so bad.

MaxPower wrote:and yes a fully kitted out librarian costs nearly as much as a dread.

A Librarian actually costs more :/ 565/140 !!

Caeltos wrote:So you'll look for other alternatives, which would be more beneficial and most importantly as well, something that fits alongside the Nurgle theme.

Dark Riku wrote:Or an AoE very small DoT affecting enemy units in worship range.

Genius. So simple. How come I never thought of this before? Keep the stress on very small.

Plasma damage type so it's not totally balls-ass against HI armour or OTT against massed light infantry. Just a little tickler that makes it a bit more risky to engage units in Nurgle Worship range.

Oh, and it fits the Nurgle theme perfectly.

MaxPower wrote:So GK Termintaors are not getting anything like a build time/call in nerf, which means that they are still able to be spammed? Could you explain why they didnt get a nerf like that?

A limit 1 for each Termi variant and all is fine.

As much as I hate the hive node. Wasn't that range kinda intended to be such a bitch? For it to promote close combat?

Caeltos wrote:You'll have to ask Relic about it. I just know it's originally used to mitigate ranged-damage, not negate it's counters by it's outgoing ranged damage. (Flamers for ex.)

But the problem is that it also reduces the outgoing damage of allied units so it's pointless using it for defensive purposes against ranged attacks. All it can be used for is securing bashes with melee units and reducing bleed during melee charges the former of which will be made pretty darn bad with the changes and the latter of which is just inefficient given the price in the first place.

Maybe make it act more defensive by making the damage reduction much lower (say ~40%) but making it so that outgoing ranged damage is not affected?

This would just make it Catachan smoke, but less helpful since the cata smoke gives 50% protection.

Not that great for something you're paying 150/20 for.

isnt the hive node 200/30? just like a TM/PC turret?

Cost was reduced a while ago now.

It's worth mentitioning it's instant-build, also before commenting on these notes I still want to see the changes on all the other T3s, aside from that the current ranged termies should stay the same, no nerf to damage and no buff to hp regen, because honestly 30 dps piercing is quite pathetic for a late T3 unit that costs 650/100 - 350 red.