Balance Issues for 2.1 *UPDATED*

[Indrid]

UPDATED - 27/02/2012

Tactical Marine / Imperial Guardsmen Flamer

The Tactical Marine variant is now a very appealing option in a variety of matchups. Feels like you can actually use your flamer vs units in cover now, even other heavy infantry and with Kraken Bolts it can be pretty nasty for that.

Are they overpowered? I think they can go either way at the moment. I think bringing them back up to 65/20 would be fair and allow them to retain this new found usefulness.

As for the Guardsmen flamer.... maybe keep this thing at 65/15? Guardsmen are much more fragile to get close with and it really hurts their scaling ability more than Tacs.

Sternguard Internal Balance

I think the Vengeance Rounds change worked out well and seemed to fit quite fluidly within their framework.

Howling Banshees

The menacing retreat killers are now at 400 requisition. What does everyone think? I think it's good as it is, we still want double Banshees builds to be viable.

Webway Gates

There have been calls that Webway Gates are too cheap at 50 red. I'd tend to agree, but it's easy for me to say that as a non-Eldar player. Seeing as you need at the very least two to get anything out of them, and 3-4+ ideally.

What do the actual Eldar players think?

Other Issues

Let us know, and I'll add them to the OP for discussion!

[Lulgrim]

If you want some numbers to go with that (re: Sternguard), here's some damage armor modifiers.

kraken
| building: 0.05f;
| vehicle: 0.02f;
| infantry: 1f;
| building_light: 0.5f;
| commander: 0.9f;
| heavy_infantry: 0.87f;
| building_defence: 0.2f;
| super_heavy_infantry: 0.39f;
| infantry_fire_resist: 1f;
| building_ig_turret: 0.2f;

vengeance
| building: 0.1f;
| vehicle: 0.4f;
| infantry: 1f;
| building_light: 0.75f;
| commander: 0.9f;
| heavy_infantry: 1.5f;
| building_defence: 0.3f;
| super_heavy_infantry: 1.5f;
| infantry_fire_resist: 1f;
| building_ig_turret: 0.3f;

Both weapons have 25 base damage and the same burst/cooldown, but Vengeance has a 9 reload duration (other bolters have 3).

[Floid]

Could you make carnifex Thornback immune to snares when Charging? And a bit more of health? Cost 750/200, almost like a superunit, and he can't scape charging if he's snared even if u charge before the snare.

[Indrid]

^^I agree about the Thornback!

Providence has an aesthetic issue apparently. The visual effect lasts longer than the performance effect.

[MaxPower]

Well,


Tac Flamethrower

I think that the tac flamer is finally worth getting, I mean the damage to low hp, high model count units feels appropriate. Combined with the increased range and the 100% acc while moving make the flamer my nr. 1 weapon against eldar and orks, even nids in t1.

Before the buff flamethrowers on tacs were just a means to an end, namely gen bashing in t1.


WSE Heavy Gauge Death Spinner

Dunno seems a bit ott, but since I hate Eldars with a passion I might be a bit biased, so not commenting on that one.


Sternguard Balance

This is a good change, because nobody used kraken, deservedly so, why should one use an inferior ammo type. This was ofc not intended, so yeah I like the change.


Thornback Carnifex

Sounds good to me, even though I didn't get your last sentence " he can't scape charging if he's snared even if u charge before the snare". Does that mean that he shouldnt be able to use charge if he gets snared?


Banshees or melee counter issue

An issue that pisses me off is the fact that Banshees are either too good for what they cost or my melee counter (main race SM with FC) just doesnt quite cut it. Because more often than not my shotguns will suppress a charging melee squad but won't knock them back. This might be intended, I don't know, but it makes countering melee squads really hard.


Whirlwind AV rocket

Is bugged because it has no cooldown, dunno if that has been fixed with beta 4 or not.
And I also think that the av rocket should work like the manticores rockets, which means that the rocket doesnt fly like a normal tac rocket but like the ones the manticore fires.

Just my 2 cents.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i'm not sure this is the place to talk about it but banshees either work or they don't. when they work they're usually awesome and when they don't work they bleed and don't do anything else.

[Eerie]

For once I gotta agree with Max. As I've never seen banshees to be a real trouble for me playing sm or chaos in the past, right now they feel a bit too tanky and with warlocks leap and disruption/wse knockback they seem untouchable in t1 at all, given eldar does the shuri/ranger camp.

As for the thornback fex I gotta say for the price it costs it should have at least that minium of utility being the charge that cannot be stopped/suppresed.

Finally it's gonna be a very subjective opinion, but I think guardsmen pop cost is too high, making it extremely costly to go for vehicles in t3, since I'm running the risk of not having the pop needed to support them. I mean, I still need a guardsmen squad that can survive @ t3 to repair the vehicles. I'd feel fine with gm costing a bit more requisition, but less pop.

[Lulgrim]

WSE Heavy Gauge Death Spinner

The chain KB is so that it prevents retreat, intended or OP?

Sounds gay, maybe apply same "spam-cap" fix as Full Auto and MWB?

Tactical Marine Flamer

2.1 sees much love for Tactical Marines flamers, have they been overbuffed? Should the price stay the same? Discuss.

Personally I was skeptical about price decrease with the range buff. Also one angle to consider if flamers seem overly strong is if the AoE radius could go smaller. Remember flamer splash is FULL damage in the entire radius.

[Indrid]

Kasrkin only give 3 red on kill apparently.

EDIT: They should have grenade icon too.

[Dark Riku]

Sounds gay, maybe apply same "spam-cap" fix as Full Auto and MWB?

I thought this was done for all 4 of the similar weapons already.
I would suggest to do it then ^^
(WB Kustom Shoota and wse Heavy Gauge Death Spinner)

"Apothecary "Full Auto" range decreased from 40 to 30."
Why is the apo the only one to get this range reduction?

[Caeltos]

Irrelevant comparison to make with other commanders. You judge their performance individually and in conjunction with the roster, not compared to one another.

Basics 101.

[Dark Riku]

Stop patronizing like that. I can do that too.
Useless post is useless, stating the obvious like that.


The combos the other races can do are more potent than what the SM's can pull.
Unless you think tacs or asm + MCB is better than
Gaurdians(more dps than tacs with BE) or banshees(over 9000dmg) + fillament
Big shootas or Stormboys + Kustom Shoota

That was simply on my mind.

[Caeltos]

You need to able to set aside your personal issues with me on these forums, I'm not having this nonsense here either. I wasn't even being patronizing in the first place. More or less just stating the fact that you judge the performance of the unit based on their coherent unit performance more or less depending on the army-compositions and general-builds in conjunction with each other. Not "Why is A better then Y - They're technically the same in terms of design" - because at the end of the day, the performance of said unit/ability/etc is based on it's blend-in within it's own army, not compared to another.

Gaurdians(more dps than tacs with BE)

Yes, like you've stated. It's an upgrade-requirement ontop of it to make it excel. 270 + 70/15. But Regular-Tacs off the gate has higher, better sustain and less prone to suffer damage penalties (3 model vs 5) - Less Guardians , less overall damage-combination. Whereas the Tacticals are more probable to be around for a longer period of time. Needless to say, even Tacs with Sergeant/Sternguards/Weapon Upgrades far excels in the combination of the Full-Auto, but let's ignore that for the sake of ignoring things.

Apply the rest of the yibberyadda philosophy to the rest of the comparions you made in a nutshell. It's just plain bias perspective on the matter, and it's not exactly subtle.

Big shootas or Stormboys + Kustom Shoota

Again, DPS-drop-off is higher, and ... we need to kinda of get to the case-of-obvious. Kustom Shoota and Filament are both FAR MORE niché then generalist-preferancial purchase that is the Apo Wargear(Bolter). The Kustom Shoota has far worse scaling performance then the Bolter in terms of yielding a compensation-reward effiency through-out T2/T3 (Hench why Klaw/Bang Bang is purchased more regulary) and same is applied to the Warp Spider Wargear purchase.

The TL;DR version;
- Bolter has better general-scaling potency then the other-compared weapon wargear. It also fits the "general" theme of Space Marines being more of a mid-late game race. (Preferably late-game)
- The Other-Comparison Weapons has a higher-reap & reward performance in the early-game. But it's more of a risk-taker and can backfire if it has yielded no substantial agression through-commander damage in the early-stages of the game. They will fall off mid-late game far more then the Bolter, due to generalist-T2 purchases are far more generalistic and idealistic to compliment with their T2 roster. (Albeit, this is far more dependant on the actual players playstyle and how they plan on adapting, but in a general-concensus more or less, this is true)

In most cases, when you see a Commander having equipped a non- AV weapon, and the rest of this army-composition has no real AV-unit. (Ork, no loota for an example) - You'd be foolished not to capitalize on a forced-purchased purchase, like a Razorback or a Dreadnought, most players of higher calibre would do this.

Because in an essence, the options becomes linear, and more predictable.
- Purchase YET-another wargear? (Not very likely) - Too much economy sink
- Purchase a Hard-AV weapon(Tankbustas?) - More likely.

Which leads to the following scenario
- Prolonged mid-game skirmishes. >> In favor of Space Marines idealistic design and approach to the game. Orks tech to T3 slowed down.

However, this doesn't mean that going with a straight-victory of purchases. You're obviously going to have to capitalize on your purchases by being agressive and getting damage-done, since you've spent some resources to maintain the foothold of the game in your place. You are more or less, doing what you should be doing. Forcing the player into playing into your hand. He has to adapt to you, not you adapting to him.

Important!
DPS-Drop off from each entity is important to consider under certain circumstances. Space Marines // GK's suffer heavily per each entity, whereas the quantity-model races suffer less, but are more prone to attrition, whereas the quality over quantity are more general-sustainability superiority that outshadows the attrition-based models. So it's easier to mitigate damage from the quantity-models then it is against low-quantity.

I think I got most said regarding this, and a little-bit more then I would have initially hoped to, but at least it's out there on the table now. Obviously it could be even more elaborate, but in general it's the whole-aspect of the dilemma(lolz)

I hope not this is discussed furthermore, I just hope to see some understanding and I'd encourage people to sit down, take a moment to think of the changes (In general) and see the angle, as to - why it was changed, and why this approach. And dwell into alot of different factors and grow as a player in terms of understanding the game mechanics & design more or less. I love having those really in-depth analysis and conversations with players, I do that on a day-to-day basis more or less these days.

On another sidenote, I do really despise the simplistic and unelaborate responses or suggestions/feedback that I get also. I mean, they give nothing to go on, nothing that it's based on, more or less just from their perspective on something that was a first-impression or whatever. It's just pointless text that is sent to me, that I'm just baffled about as to "Wat do?" type of situation. Really, really do not like those. NOT. ONE. BIT.

Speaking of which, I'll never forget that guy who made the most absurd suggestion of all. He actually wanted Fire Dragons to ... have melta bombs, and ACTUALLY wanted individual-unit Stormtroopers to DEAL close-to no damage at all (50 shots to kill 1 Firedragon model) and.... just so much more ridicilous propositions. He kindly reminded me the other day about it infact, and I had the ... well *luxury* of playing with him, and it's no wonder he can't get Fire Dragons to work when he blob-retreats and spams X and A-Move. It's like as if he's just EXPECTING it to work like that.

Oh well, that's enough for me on that little debate & rant. Oh and, well- I might as well throw this out there instead of PM'ing you Lulgrim, there's this guy who's continously nagging on me for not having "fixed" Artillery-Spotters (Who appearantly have the wrong animation(?)), they should appearantly use the same animations as Kasrkins, or something. I'm not entirely sure, but it's a big deal for him for some strange reason and he doesn't want to play IG because of it. (The guy has a thing for details)

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The TL;DR version;
- Bolter has better general-scaling potency then the other-compared weapon wargear. It also fits the "general" theme of Space Marines being more of a mid-late game race. (Preferably late-game)
- The Other-Comparison Weapons has a higher-reap & reward performance in the early-game. But it's more of a risk-taker and can backfire if it has yielded no substantial agression through-commander damage in the early-stages of the game. They will fall off mid-late game far more then the Bolter, due to generalist-T2 purchases are far more generalistic and idealistic to compliment with their T2 roster. (Albeit, this is far more dependant on the actual players playstyle and how they plan on adapting, but in a general-concensus more or less, this is true)

I want to add that Kustom Shoota have less scaling because a) is in a big commander designed to squish gits in melee, not dakka dakka they in range; b) as is a big commander that destroy cover and stuff when he walk into they you cant take cover to shoot at range; c) Less DPS than the MCB, and without possibility to increase the damage as the WSE could. d) Bang Bang Hammer and the Claw fit better with the Warboss role and also they are awesome.

On another sidenote, I do really despise the simplistic and unelaborate responses or suggestions/feedback that I get also. I mean, they give nothing to go on, nothing that it's based on, more or less just from their perspective on something that was a first-impression or whatever. It's just pointless text that is sent to me, that I'm just baffled about as to "Wat do?" type of situation. Really, really do not like those. NOT. ONE. BIT.

I already said this in the post that Hirohikami post in ELITE forum, but here i go again.

Have in mind that you are going to receive feedback from a very wide source repertory, from people who are living Shakespeares to indian-like writers (like me, for example. I always have the feeling that i'm giving constant kicks to the english dictionary); from people who have a incredible power of abstraction, knowledge and understanding about balance to OMG CHAOS OVER ELDAR OVER SM OVER NERF THEY PLOXXXXXX players.

Have in mind also that is very difficult to be totally objective. You are always been, even if is very very little, biased about or with something.

As a balance designer, you have to receive all this feedback (the good and the bad feedback) and select that worthwhile, and be always try to be polite. It's difficult (sometimes EXTREMELY difficult) but its the correct way.

Sometimes it could burn your soul speak and/or receive feedback from some players. I know that feeling, bro. I've been in the past administrator (tester administrator) in a WOW private server and i sometimes have wasted half an hour of chat with a person with the same ability to reason that a stone. And of course, the person left without getting convinced of what I said.

[Caeltos]

I already said this in the post that Hirohikami post in ELITE forum, but here i go again.

Have in mind that you are going to receive feedback from a very wide source repertory, from people who are living Shakespeares to indian-like writers (like me, for example. I always have the feeling that i'm giving constant kicks to the english dictionary); from people who have a incredible power of abstraction, knowledge and understanding about balance to OMG CHAOS OVER ELDAR OVER SM OVER NERF THEY PLOXXXXXX players.

As a balance designer, you have to receive all this feedback (the good and the bad feedback) and select that worthwhile, and be always try to be polite. It's difficult (sometimes EXTREMELY difficult) but its the correct way.

Tis true. You do get abit of a signal coming if it's mixtured with the people are being fairly experienced and are capable of formulating a half-a page text about something that seems to be in similiarity. When the rather simplistic feedback is brought forward, I really don't just completely throw it out the window. It just gets harder to analyze a potential issue there is within the game. Sometimes I got a hunch, and I can figure it out, and sometimes it's more about adjusting a change that was recently made. For an example of this, I feel that Dark Reapers with the pricetag of 400/40 was abit to steep for their surviveability and reinf. cost, so I wanted to re-evaluate abit of their performance and cost effiency. Hench, damage done decrease + price cost decrease.

I can't always be polite about sometihng. Sometimes it's more like they're asking to get told to be quiet, espicially when a concern has been brought up to attention and it's getting looked into, and it's continously being brought up every-single day. I'm really open about new-potential issues and trying to get them resolved, but when it's the same issue, over and over again from the same group of people. It just gets really annoying. Or when it's blown out of proportion and greatly exagurrated.

Or when it's an issue that is outside the possible adjustment-box. As in, pathfinding and general-game mechanics that can downright ruin the game. It pains me to know that I'm powerless to act, and Lulgrim as well. It's just a situation we'll have to deal with, and I really want to make it better. What we can do sometimes is just make some responsiveness of unit to be better, hench some of the vehicle rotation/accelerations has been done to make them more easier to control and navigate with.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

unless i misunderstood something you just decreased the damage from the missile barrage; i thought the issue was that they have very high plasma dps. was the launcher the issue? i almost never use it with them because it's t3 and requires the exarch to be alive.

[Dark Riku]

I'm not having a personal issue with you.
It came over patronizing non the less.
But written text can always come across differently than when you say something.

But thank you for the elaborate response.
Although it doesn't have to be this elaborate for me :p
This is what I was looking for. It was just my initial thought when I saw the change.
And wanted some other opinions on it or even better your thoughts on it.

On further thought, you are right, it does indeed make sense.
Since like you stated the bolter is an all round better upgrade for various reasons.
And stuffs~~ Still sick so just stopping it here.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

riku, i've said this before and i'll say it again: you tend to come off as antagonistic. i have no idea whether you intend to be or not but just be aware of it.

[Indrid]

Trippa Shot is mental, needs to not affect retreating units or get a range reduction.

Tac Flamers should be reverted in cost imo, but retain their other buffs. Haven't seen Guardsmen use them much yet.

Hive Tyrant Rending Talons is overpowered I think. Should be 25 power or 150/20. 75 dps + Seismic Roar now without the delay is a bit nuts, especially the synergy with Charge at only 50 power for the both of them. Good vs all match ups in T1 and stays decent into T3 with the disruption.

Only speaking with 2v2 and 3v3 experience though for all of the above.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the trend is away from knockback on retreat so the former

GM don't have any thing to combine with the flamers apart from setup teams so what they have is a flamer with longer range. better, but probably still not worth losing plasma against most opponents.

[Indrid]

Still think Paladins are way overpriced at 700/200. Yes, they don't require red like other Terminator variants but it's much easier to amass ~600/100/350 than 200 power imo, especially on such a generally expensive faction. They should be 700/150.

[Lulgrim]

Does their utility justify getting Paladins to begin with? It seems kinda weak to me (on paper) compared with GKT splash damage and energy sap...

[Caeltos]

Well, the paladins does have the heavy_melee, meaning they're more versatile.

I'd argue that their pricing + aura buff might need adjustments. However, I'll rather make adjustments after their Incinerators + Pyscanons upgrade becomes acccessible.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the GK player in a really long beta game i played was complaining about them. he bought two squads and said they weren't worth it, partially because of the lack of teleport. i realize that's not much to go on but i think there's a general sentiment here that they're not worth their price. idk what he did with them, i wasn't watching that.

[Indrid]

Paladins can teleport.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

*shrug*

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Taste some 2.1.1 beta 5 psicannon and incinerator Paladins and GK Terminator changes.

- The flame is the normal one (orange) but the "burn" effect in the affected unit/squad is blue.

- The GK Terminators and Paladins should have and additional flame or "+" mark in the unit indicator when is upgraded with the Psicannon or the incinerator.

- The incinerator does excessive damage against buildings. Took 250 hp from the base turrets each "burst" (each 5 or 6 seconds, i don't remember exactly the time) It could be not difficult to teleport (or make they invisible with the GK Librarian's Shroud) behind the base and burn the base turrets.

- About Paladins: maybe the main problem is we have two very similar T3 squads, one with power_melee with splash and energy drain and the other with melee_heavy and a area buff. 200 energy for a squad that can (difficult, but not impossible) lose models it's too much IMHO. 180 or 170 could be better.

But well, at least even with his big cost have a cheaper reinforce cost than the Chaos/Assault Terminators/Terminators.

[Caeltos]

Chaos Terminators are 100/50
Space Marine Terminators are 150/50
Grey Knights are somewhere inbetween.

[Helios]

Here's a much worse issue that has to be fixed ASAP

http://www.dow2elite.com/forums/topic/u ... ally-nids/

I want this addressed NOW. I just played another game, against the same Nid player, same strategy. Save red for towers. Spawn as many as possible close to each other, let the passive red gain allow them make even more towers, rinse and repeat. Totally and completely unkillable, UNINJURED tyranids. Couldn't quite save the replay this time but this is absolutely broken.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

make the towers not stack