Special attacks and sync kills

[lolzarz]

So, that other day, I was watching this sync kill compilation. I noticed that all of the units were specialized melee units. So I'd like to ask; what triggers sync kills? Must the killing unit be a melee unit, have greater health than a certain threshold, or what?

Also, I've read that a greater melee skill allows units to do special attacks against enemy units. But can primarily ranged units do so? For instance, Chaos Space Marines have greater melee skill than Purgation squads. Does that enable my Chaos Space Marines to do special attacks, or must I use a unit with a melee weapon, like Raptors or Bloodletters?

[Black Relic]

Only if the unit has a weapon that can perform a special attack. And usually the only weapons that can are melee weapons like chainswords or choppas. The only ranged weapon that can perform a special is the Orgrans weapon (name escapes me). But that is also a melee weapon since that knock peeps with it (yeeaaa).

And if your units has more melee skill then they are less likely to get specialed them selves or perform a special (provided they have a weapon that can perform a special)

And synx kill (might be wrong) is just a probability thing. For example. If a Chaos Lord get the last hit/attack on and unit. The death animation might be over rode with a synx kill instead of a dire avenger falling to the floor from a *smack* by the CL's power sword.

[lolzarz]

So... take Tactical Space Marines. Does that mean I actually lose my special attack (sergeant's chainsword) after upgrade to Sternguard? Say I force melee on shootas with my Sternguard. Seeing as neither side can perform specials, does that mean my melee skill is irrelevant? Similarly, sluggas. When I equip burnas, 2 (or 3) slugga boyz exchange their choppas for burnas. Do the 2 boyz lose the ability to perform specials?

Also, if it's just a matter of probability, does that mean my Tactical Space Marines can sync kill enemies? Can all units perform sync kills in close combat, only melee units, or only selected melee units?

[Lulgrim]

1. The model has a weapon with at least 1 sync kill defined
2. It gets the killing blow and RNGs appropriately to trigger the sync kill (whatever the chance is set to)
3. The target has a compatible sync kill animation defined

[lolzarz]

1. The model has a weapon with at least 1 sync kill defined
2. It gets the killing blow and RNGs appropriately to trigger the sync kill (whatever the chance is set to)
3. The target has a compatible sync kill animation defined

So... I assume what you mean is that the unit in question has to have a weapon capable of causing sync kills and have the animations to do so. Does that mean ranged units definitely cannot perform sync kills?

[Orkfaeller]

The majoritiy of them can't, no.

[Phoenix]

For Special Attacks the melee skull of the two fighting Units gets compared.
If it is equal both have a 5% Chance to get One (if they have a Special attack implemented im the Game).
If anyone has got a higher melee skill it is the only One possible to trigger a Special attack by a 5% + melee skill difference Chance.

[Orkfaeller]

melee skull of the two fighting Units .

[Torpid]

Which means that a mob of lv1 slugga boyz cannot get special attacks against a squad of lv2 tactical marines or a lv2 apothecary and in both examples that makes quite a huge difference.

It also seems that certain sync kills such as the "unique sync kills", i.e. ones that only occur when two specific units are in combat. Like the GUO vs Avatar, Dread vs WL, DD vs WL, TH FC vs WB etc. are much likely to proc than normal sync kills.

[FiSH]

Also, I've read that a greater melee skill allows units to do special attacks against enemy units. But can primarily ranged units do so?

There are a bunch of ranged units that can perform special attacks. Warp spider exarch is an infamous example. The ones I can recall off the top of my head are:

Lord General
Tactical Marines (with they shall know no fear)
Weirdboy
Ranger (they even have a sync kill)
Warp Spider Exarch (and WS Exarch leader I believe)
Both Exarch leader for Dire Avengers and Wraithguards have leap (not special, but worth noting)

One thing about rangers though. Their melee skill is supposedly 50 (both from wikia and codex). However, I've definitely seen them special attack a WSE (!). This leads me to believe that the sword models have melee skill of 60.

[Bahamut]

tacs can't perform special attacks, only tac sarge

Heretics can't perform special attacks neither, only their champion

[Lulgrim]

Tactical Marines (with they shall know no fear)

Not a special attack.

One thing about rangers though. Their melee skill is supposedly 50 (both from wikia and codex). However, I've definitely seen them special attack a WSE (!). This leads me to believe that the sword models have melee skill of 60.

There's only 1 type of Ranger. All the models are the same.

[FiSH]

There's only 1 type of Ranger. All the models are the same.

But there are 2 sword models and 1 long rifle model. In any case, if all models are same, then the melee skill value in the Codex (and wikia) must be wrong.

[Wise Windu]

They aren't wrong. Just checked.

[Lulgrim]

But there are 2 sword models and 1 long rifle model.

And if you buy a flamer your Tac Squad has 2 bolter models and 1 flamer model...

[FiSH]

They aren't wrong. Just checked.

Thanks for clarifying. Well... now I'm stomped. I know for a fact what I saw but all the evidence points otherwise...

[Torpid]

Have your eyes never deceived you before? If they have then surely they could do so again? If they have not then don't think it is possible for them to do so? If all evidence points to your eyes being wrong and there is no evidence that points to your eyes being correct then I think it's safe to assume your eyes were wrong

[lolzarz]

I'm sorry if you consider this necro-ing, but I still have some questions.

For instance, there are these incredibly long sync-kills, like the Thunder Hammer Force Commander v. Warboss, Power Sword Force Commander v. Carnifex, etc. When my Force Commander (or any other unit for that matter) is making these admittedly impressive and badass kills, does he take damage? If so, what will happen if my Force Commander reaches zero health in the middle of the kill?

PS. For those of you who don't know what the Carnifex kill looks like, it's here: http://youtu.be/k958ZTCK0cE?t=1m19s
The damn sync kill's 20 seconds or so, but it's incredibly cool in my opinion.

[Torpid]

During all sync-kills units only take 10% damage and they cannot die, instead their health will fall downwards at that 10% rate to 0.00000000000000...1 and they will die when they are hit by anything afterwards.

It is probably capped at some value so it doesn't go on endlessly, but I know it is smaller than 1 because if a vehicle gets under 1 HP but doesn't die (which is rather rare in normal cases, but can happen due to a sync-kill) and they will die when they are hit by anything afterwards then you become unable to repair it despite it being alive.

Sync-kills van be a good and a bad thing. If you know how often missle tacs or beamy lootas or any burst damage AV shoots you can time it so that your walker attacks a weak unit like shoota boyz or scouts in the hopes that they get a sync kill so that they take barely any damage from the missle/beam. The same applies to snipers with infantry, that said it also can be a bad thing because you sometimes get sync-kills when otherwise you want to be killing more models and since sync-kills take so long they end up reducing your DPS.

[Atlas]

Just as a random suggestion I though of while readin the thread; what about having sync kills only possible if a squad is on it's last member?

For vehicles and single entity models this would have no effect, but I know there are instances where you'd rather have your bruiser(s) pursuing the rest of the squad to do more damage instead of taking the time to show off how he can kill one guardsman. It's just cooler if those special moments are reserved for those awesome squad wipes.

On the other hand, sync kills are cool and a part of the game so they shouldn't get ridden of entirely imo. Still, the point of the idea is to lower the amount of randomness that gets in the way sometimes while still having those awesome little moments.

Little off topic but hey throwing it out there.

[Myrdal]

Wait, where do you get the 10% figure? It seems reasonable but I always thought it was 25%. Regarding sync kills only on last model, not sure if this is possible to mod without invoking scar left and right.

It is probably capped at some value so it doesn't go on endlessly, but I know it is smaller than 1 because if a vehicle gets under 1 HP but doesn't die (which is rather rare in normal cases, but can happen due to a sync-kill) and they will die when they are hit by anything afterwards then you become unable to repair it despite it being alive.

Possible but this can also happen without any sync-kills involved. Happened recently when I played a 3v3 and my tics followed Caeltos' falcon around for 5 min unable to repair it.

[Torpid]

The 10% figure was just something that had always been in my head from past experience and anecdotes.

Is there a way to check it?

[Wise Windu]

Found it. For anyone with Cope's toolbox, it's under tuning>tuning_info>combat.

25% damage taken during sync kills, 50% damage taken during special attacks.

[Torpid]

Thanks Windu.

[Myrdal]

If I hadn't known about the 25% value from the files i'd go with 10% too, that's why I was hesitant to say Torpid was wrong. I think 10% is more accurate though. Unless we're talking about walker, ranged/melee resistance is likely factored in and in that case we end up with 12.5-15%. I say likely because I'm only basing this on random observations while playing.

[Lulgrim]

I assume the repair ability has a 1.0 hp threshold, could it be set to 0.1 or something?

[Myrdal]

Are you referring to requirements_on_target_sustain in the repair abilities? Also the Falcon does have health regeneration (maybe another reason why it also bugs out) but in that game iirc the falcon didn't regenerate. So it might not be an issue with repair but a rare bug where the unit should be dead yet isn't.

[Lulgrim]

Might also be a starting/targeting condition?

[Myrdal]

Not sure what you mean by that.

[lolzarz]

So my unit performing special attacks/sync kills temporarily cannot be killed. Can I heal him during the animation so that he won't die the instant the sync kill/special attack is over? Like, say, using Heal from Apothecary, Back In The Fight from Lord General, etc.