Dawn of War Codex

ok, i'm a chaos sorc player as some of you know. Making this thread not to qq but because i'm genuinely wondering about it; could GK t1 really be too hard to deal with for my hero?

brother captain kills sorc 1v1, even with sword upgrade

strike squad kills sorc, even with sword upgrade

GK storm troopers... this one frustrates me the most. They move really fast, hurts you regardless of upgrades, even more annoying with grenade launchers
- scouts have fast movements but short range
- heretics have slow movements but long range
- these storm troopers have both and their grenades hit you easier coz they travel faster! I tried using launchers vs launchers against some better GK players and they have no problem microing out of mine while kiting my tics! And I bleed harder!

Lastly, interceptors. Melee tics were supposed to counter them, but sadly NOPE! Coz their dmg is so high that they kill tics rly rly fast. Faster than tics killing them -_- So I can't punish interceptors like I pushing SM ASM with melee tics. (Yes of coz I tried using flame sword + tics combo, but Brother Captain Mantle of Terra, sth that makes him even more dgaf charging my line and AOE that burns my tics + make them unable to explode)

Sigil of rift is just too clunky to use against GK storm troopers; cast time etc.

And from wt impact i felt, GK t1 range does hurt, it doesn't suck at all.

*edit: Forgot to mention raptors; No, I see no reason getting those against GK.

Open with double CSM, and if he gets the interceptors roll out 1 AC tic and the sword of flame(use the ability on them) , then get double Eternal War(once you have it up the interceptors won't be really a problem, let the csm melee them with tic support), if he gets multiple grenade launchers get also the armor of the warp and tie them up with the sorc, for the rest the csm will do the majorty of the work, if you feel like this isn't enough and he went like double SS with interceptors get noise marines or havok however you prefer, but in that case you'll need to quickly force off the BC with your army and then move onto the rest.

Raptors, like all jump troops, are extremely good vs GK t1, they just have problems scaling.

Radio the Forest wrote:Raptors, like all jump troops, are extremely good vs GK t1, they just have problems scaling.

There is virtually no use for raptors in t2/3 and they will lose to upgraded interceptors/purifiers/termies(obviously) etc, i'd say even the bc with hammer/halberd/staff is enough.

Double eternal war + flame sword + AC tics = 4 squads against 1. His other things would be shooting at me. BC also hurts a lot (ACtics is the only thing that can kill him 1v1 in t1... before he buys his mantle of terra), and yes, mental of terra.

Very often this full scale skirmish will end up having me losing at least 5 tics (the one i exploded, if i can, included)

And something I didn't clarify in the first post; I find this particularly annoying before I got enough for another CSM squad. Coz BC + storm trooper + strike squad > sorc + CSM + tics. Meaning I can't hold ground if he pushses me early. (and GK is also faster and ranged mostly at that time, so I lose hp or tics and/or points every time I turn my back after a futile attempt to def)

Radio the Forest wrote:Raptors, like all jump troops, are extremely good vs GK t1, they just have problems scaling.

No, strike squad kills them, BC kill them, and they can't tie up storm troopers because of their range and their speed. I TRIED MANY TIMES

Wt happened from my experience is that, after jumping in, if fails to suppress them (which happens often; coz they see you, they know you're gonna jump them, and they run fast enough), you take kite damage. And when you retreat, their w/e units that you jump past turns around and melee you, then you lose models.

and yes, they are free red to GK in t2 t3

*edit: typo
* edit 2: elaborate how raptors would get owned by storm troopers

It works pretty well in t1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc_r1hkVCqohttp

Double eternal war + flame sword + AC tics = 4 squads against 1. His other things would be shooting at me. BC also hurts a lot (ACtics is the only thing that can kill him 1v1 in t1... before he buys his mantle of terra), and yes, mental of terra.

Once you deal with the interceptors/brocap the rest shouldn't be a problem.

hastaga wrote:And something I didn't clarify in the first post; I find this particularly annoying before I got enough for another CSM squad. Coz BC + storm trooper + strike squad > sorc + CSM + tics. Meaning I can't hold ground if he pushses me early. (and GK is also faster and ranged mostly at that time, so I lose hp or tics and/or points every time I turn my back after a futile attempt to def)

That's common with all tanky heroes, unless you get a good doombolt hit on the SS or storms and force them off really early.

And yes, the mantle of terra is bullshit, that's why you want a build like this, which can actually deal with his army and doesn't need to activate/use almost no abilities to win.

TIME STAMP! PLEASE!
I watched only 1 engage (at 4:12)

FFS you're using a CHAOS LORD, You have something to tie up his frontline and KHORN WORSHIP TO SPEED BOOST!

Ace of Swords wrote:
Once you deal with the interceptors/brocap the rest shouldn't be a problem.

Point being, I bleed, GK probably doesn't. And shoving off 1.2k hp brocap with silence = hahaha what

Ace of Swords wrote: That's common with all tanky heroes, unless you get a good doombolt hit on the SS or storms and force them off really early.

I'll explain why GK matchup is particularly hard

WB - i can suppress him
CL - doesn't have double range shooting at my tics early, doesn't have a weapon that completely counters my AC tic in t1 + 200 extra hp with that, easier kite in general coz sorc can tie up his CSM (and kill them) and no fast running basic units. Also raptors die way easier to what counter melee sorcs has compare to interceptors, they also don't hit as hard.
FC - can be suppressed
Tyrant - same case as CL

Point being, I bleed, GK probably doesn't. And shoving off 1.2k hp brocap with silence = hahaha what

I know, that's why you want 2 csm with EW, the sword of flame is also an extra, if you position yourself correctly and make him spearhead with his BC in the early engagments (before inties are out) you can kill him rather quickly, EW itself is cheap, so grab it fast.

I'll explain why GK matchup is particularly hard

WB - i can suppress him
CL - doesn't have double range shooting at my tics early, doesn't have a weapon that completely counters my AC tic in t1 + 200 extra hp with that, easier kite in general coz sorc can tie up his CSM (and kill them) and no fast running basic units
FC - can be suppressed
Tyrant - same case as CL

It's still the same though, the bc itself is annoying at the start but doesn't do that much, we are talking about early engagments when you still don't have a squad that costs power out, by that time with all the upgrades you got you should be able to win or atleast be on his same level, also keep in mind gks are quite expensive req and power wise and they need alot of upgrades especially later in the game, by playing on this factor don't be scared to purchase even more squads, like I said if the 2 csm+ac+sword of flame(armor of the warp if needed, if not grab the chains in t2) and plus either havoks or NM should be enough to deal with the gk army.

hastaga wrote:TIME STAMP! PLEASE!
I watched only 1 engage (at 4:12)

FFS you're using a CHAOS LORD, You have something to tie up his frontline and KHORN WORSHIP TO SPEED BOOST!

Sorceror with teleport armor does a pretty good job vs storms.

Anyways storms are getting nerfed in the next patch with the cost of the sarge and and the sarge won't grant any extra speed so raptors will be even better vs them.

Most important part of the MU is to make the GK player come to you.

And +1 to what Ace said. Mantle of Terra is bullshit currently, but there are some heroes (cough cough apo cough cough) where it's a necessity.

Why is this in the balance discussion?

because I am thinking it could be that GK is OP in this specific matchup. At least someone brought up about mantle being 'bs' and storm troopers are getting nerf

It's a pretty even MU all round.

Just go for a tic,csm,csm,tic,havoc build. Sword of flame on the CS. One AC tic. 2x CSM focus fire + flaming AC tics + CS should easily deal with the GKI and if you really need to blob you can do with both tics (since having CSM capping isn't that bad since they own IST whereas tics don't). Your CSM should be FFing any BC that is moving forward before he can cast canticle and you should have a bit of time to cast coruscating flame before the CoA kicks in after the GKI jump on your havocs.

Havocs are key here because they are great bait and they literally are worth the cost as bait in t1. They also force the GK to blob a lot and this is good for getting superior map control.

Your CSM should be bleeding IST all throughout t1 and really it's just unacceptable to be losing model son those CSM because GK have no real way to punish HI in t1 except GKI, but you have 2 tics so GKI shouldn't be killing CSM models.

anyway, this MU is much much harder in t1 than it is elsewhere in the game. Come T2 the CS roflstomps the GK and the only reason why the MU is balanced is because the GK should have a better eco in t1 (slightly better map control, but way less bleed).

Come T2 you ought to go for a quick BC. Forcing any AV purchase is great against GK because all their AV costs shit-tonnes of req and their T2 is really really really req-heavy (which is why the game becomes so easy for the CS in t2 - more explained shortly), furthermore usually they will need two AV choices to kill a BC unless they get a dreadnought. A dreadnought shouldn't give you much trouble at all though. Get a lascannon on that havoc, it's done it's job as a suppression team and you no longer need that anymore in T2 anyway (which is why an autocannon does well if they go for anything else than a dread). bloodcrusher under worship alongside the lascannon deals with the GK dread tremendously easily.

Anyway, after you get a BC the next purchase you want to make, or at least that I make, is double MoTCSM. TCSM absolutely butcher GK in all ways and two of them are a nightmare. You will bleed the GK to bits. His IST can't fight them at ranged for shit and nor can the SS. You suddenly have far far more ranged damage to kill GKI & the BC with too. Suddenly the GK has to commit hugely to every fight in which he meets your CSM else he bleeds endless models to inferno bolts.

Next I often get bloodletters. Bloodletters do some complementary AV, but that's kinda besides the point. Really they're just one hell of an amazing counter-initiation unit and where the AC tics completely fail in t2 (at countering purifiers/GKI) BLs excell. They are the reason why the las-havoc works, because the GKI can't afford to jump into BLs. The BLs then synergise with the incumbent BC/dual tics.

Often at this point I will purchase my supplementary upgrades in the order in which I feel I need them. That includes a second AC on my other tic squad. EW on my CSM and their ACs, robes of torment to control any pesky purifiers and the BC (and also to hold IST in place to force a retreat whenever I can) and sigil just because it has such amazing utility far beyond pulling and sniping enemy squads (such as teleporting tics into retreat path, or teleporting squads out of/into base, or teleporting set-up teams forward like gate of infinity, or for trolling capping ISt squads by teleporting my TCSM forward, forcing the IST off then jumping my TCSM back through the rift to my main army).

Now it's time to go T3. Hopefully you have bled the GK to absolute bits by now. It really isn't necessary to commit to a gen bash, so only do so if you truly feel like you could get one off without having to concede too mcuh bleed/map control. De-capping his req points is far more important here as that is what stops GK from going t3, not a lack of power, but rather req.

Once you hit T3 I like to get a predator. This is because GK AV is somewhat lacking and all they have to deal with the predator is a VA or dreads and realistically neither of them are gonna kill a predator whereas my predator is going to bleed the GK (especially those pesky IST) a lot. I know I've got the tech lead so I can go for a pred.

If somehow you don't have the tech-lead, or for some reason the GK has loads of AV (melta bomb, VA and a dreadnought/purifiers/las-rhino) and he's still in the game then just go for terminators. Their ranged damage is really amazing and once again you have a perfect way to bleed the IST (seeing a pattern here; yes, this is how you defeat GK) and in the prospect that they get their own terminator variant at some point you can easily upgrade to the lightning claws (you also can subjugate their termies and waste their tele and slaughter them with your termies/letters).

P.S if you have a huge tech-lead a khorne dreadnought does way better than a bloodcrusher, but really you want to use whatever vehicle you get in T2 to solidify one whole gen bash on the GK, or at least de-cap his matured req points.

hastaga wrote:because I am thinking it could be that GK is OP in this specific matchup. At least someone brought up about mantle being 'bs' and storm troopers are getting nerf

Please use the appropriate vernacular btw, it vexes me when you say that you "think it could the case that GK is 'OP' in this specific MU" because GK obviously aren't OP period, however they are favoured in some MUs (I don't think this is one though, but that's not my point here). Favoured =/= OP. Different things. Sorry for the pedantry.

Mantle is super strong, but then again so is aegis and tbf so is nemmy vortex, I think mantle is alright really. Some heroes just have strong wargears, it makes up for a subpar composition.

Stormtroopers are being nerfed, but the intention isn't really to make them weaker, rather to shift the GK dependence on IST in general. While IST are incredibly strong ATM for GK and their T1 is very dependent on them, it happens to be that very dependence on the unit is often their downfall as the IST bleed ceaselessly atm come T2/3. The changes that Caeltos is making will give the IST a role that they never have been able to before this point - and that is the combat support role (as mines just cost too much before to be useful) and although this does nerf them because overall their utility is greatly diminished the rest of the GK t1 composition is for the most part getting buffed directly or indirectly. We should also note the rhino changes that Caeltos has hinted at too. I think saying IST deserve a nerf and that is evident in the changelogs is really looking at things far too simplistically and actually wrong. I don't think they deserve a nerf, their OPness is really rather necessary for GK to be in the slightest bit viable given the current state of the GK army/eco.

Notice that nowhere are the purgation squad even mentioned.

I wonder why?

Shouldn't this topic be in General discussion instead of Balance? i Agree with Torpid's Composition

That Torpid Gamer wrote:... their OPness is really rather necessary for GK to be in the slightest bit viable given the current state of the GK army/eco.

I get what you're saying, but I want to complain about the phrase "OPness is necessary to make ____ viable" (political correctness). OP/underpower are both unhealthy to game experience, thus neither are encouraged. Neither of the concepts should be applied to make a certain race viable.

That aside, I agree with what you said above. Guess i'll just suck it up and bite the greandes and forecswords alikes until 2.3 hits.

Radio the Forest wrote:Notice that nowhere are the purgation squad even mentioned.

I wonder why?

Not enuff dakka, boss.

Torpid, given the fact that you've said that it's a pretty even MU, yet given practically a step by step guide to beating GK, how would the GK player counter your strategy?

Cheekie Monkie wrote:

Radio the Forest wrote:Notice that nowhere are the purgation squad even mentioned.

I wonder why?

Not enuff dakka, boss.

Sarcastic comment was sarcastic

Cheekie Monkie wrote:Torpid, given the fact that you've said that it's a pretty even MU, yet given practically a step by step guide to beating GK, how would the GK player counter your strategy?

The same way GK counter everything: more stormtroopers and more terminators.

Nobody mentioned doombolts. Just hit one of those at 100+ energy and the engagement should go in your favour.

Ace rounded up how to deal with them spot on tbh dude if u get ure doombolts off on st squads and use the tics with aspiring champ with sword of flame sounds like a done deal to me and later sorc can do some damage with global's and war-gear so yeah np in my eyes

Heroes like the BC are a huge problem for sorc. Especially when he stacks up his regen wargears, I can see that being an absolute headache until you can shift the aggression in tier 2 with demons or TCSM.

Tex wrote:Heroes like the BC are a huge problem for sorc. Especially when he stacks up his regen wargears, I can see that being an absolute headache until you can shift the aggression in tier 2 with demons or TCSM.

Exactly, and other heroes have "can't touch this" abilities that make them impossible to swarm with heretics. Battlecry, stomp, KTW, etc

How do i play this MU as a GK player?

storms, strikes, storms, storms, improved force sword on BC and blessed aegis, stormtrooper sergeants, quick t2, dreadnought/libby, t3, terminators.

In t1, use one storm for capping (should be able to deal with default heretics) while the other two help you fight. Early on, have the BC tie up one CSM with WATH while storms and strikes bleed the heretics. Dodge the doombolts with WATH speed buff.

Later on, when the havoc and second CSM are out, same thing. Tie up havoc with BC, have strikes run in and disrupt the double CSM with specials. Your 2 fighting storms focus heretics/sorceror.

You probably won't have a clear advantage in late T1, you need to use your superiority with 3x storms in early t1 to push forward to the gen farm and destroy it/uncap as many req points as possible due to Chaos reliance on req (and sorc reliance on heretics).

T2 gets tricky, winning the tech race means you should get a dread ASAP, try to avoid bleeding on your storms because the GK dread is 500 req. The dread forces an AV response (either a lascannon or an enemy dread) which delays the bloodletters. The "purified blades" accessory should also be handy to drain bloodletter energy, but it requires you to give up the teleporter.
Gk libby puts serious pain on chaos. If you cast "purge" on an enemy squad, then put the "shrouding" buff on the libby himself, you can wipe default heretics instantly with smite. Haven't tried it vs AC tics yet, but it's brutal.

Teleporter pack is also a godsend, allows you to tie up those TCSM/havoc instantly and your BC should have levels by now so you can activate WATH and then teleport almost every engagement.

T3: get your termies/palas, and FOCUS FIRE THE SORCEROR. If you don't kill the sorceror, your own terminators will destroy your army. And buy the incinerator, it wrecks heretics and even deals a ton of damage to CSM/bloodletters.

Aren't Interceptors a great counter to 2 X TCSM build? 2 x TCSM is expensive as fuck, so the GK player could go for a GKI in T2 if he sees the 2 X TCSM build, or pimp a bit the BC with teleport/Halberd/Hammer/Warding Staff. Or simply go for a GK Dread.

Isn't Canticle of Absolution a great counter to Chaos? Chaos have relatively few abilities, but neccesary to win engagements. Canticle of Absolution disables Worshipp, Doomblast, any Chaos Sorcerer ability, Noise Marines' Cacophony, Bloodletters teleport/phase shift..

Have anyone tried the Lasscannon Rhino + Vindicare Assassin combo to counter an early Bloodcrusher?

Regarding fighting the CS or any CSM hero as GK I tend to go with the typical build vs power armour races of (starting IST), SS, IST, node, GKI, 2x gen, 2x IST sarge, canticle, power sword on BC. Purgation in theory would be useful vs tic heavy builds but there's just no need atm because of how well IST do against them and I find GKI perfectly viable if you have good IST micro as you can bleed those tics down before your GKI engage. Good canticle timing will help your GKI all throughout the game. You can disrupt havocs/csm with your GKI/BC respectively and with canticle your GKI are in a much safer position not to mention you can then swap the position of the BC/GKI with another teleport and all the meanwhile your IST can be shooting down those tics and the CSM will likely be more concerned with the GKI/BC. The power sword is pretty fundamental for it's better damage to everything, but especially the havocs/csm and the bonus to WATH is just a bonus.

Given the better mobility of your army it should be possible to get a map control advantage here and possibly a gen bash, however your main worry will as always be IST bleed and that's what will stop you from teching as fast as the chaos. If you tech first I like to go for a HB rhino and use that to bash even more and try to bleed the chaos. Given that you have the tech-lead you have a choice regarding what AV you want. If all they get is a bloodcrusher then they still need something more to counter your rhino, but an autocannon will probably be purchased, but that alone only serves as a means to deter your rhino but not to kill it, so you can conitnue to use your rhino/IST to cap the entire map and bash ceaselessly. The rhino/IST provide good fire support for dealing with the BLs.

Anyway, they will likely try to get some vehicle out to stem your tide of ceaseless piercing dps. If they go for a bloodcrusher a vindicare+librarian does wonders. Shrouding the VA will protect him from pesky TCSM fire and increase his damage which can increased further with mind blades and then add in the melta bomb from the GKI (which acts as a haywire by preventing the victim from even attacking) and the BC shouldn't be much trouble but you've also managed to pick up some good anti-infantry and even some terminator support if the game does end up lasting till t3.

If they go for a dreadnought I would go for purifiers+the VA. Purifiers deal with ranged dreadnoughts surprisingly well and you still have the piercing dps available to deal with BLs and canticle to stop those worship shenanigans. The VA provides just that little bit of extra oomph needed to take down that dread.

After that you're likely going to be floating power so it's time to go for some power intensive upgrades. Plasma guns on the IST are great here. The warding staff on the BC is pivotal to your GKI/purifier play in this MU and the teleporter is darn useful too for tying up the TCSM/havocs. Leave SS by default and just use them to deal capping tics.

Then it's the inevitable paladin/terminator spam based on whether they have termies or a pred.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Shrouding the VA will protect him from pesky TCSM fire and increase his damage

And cause sync errors

Why not just remove the infiltration upgrade from the VA already... (can tell how long it's been since I bought a GK libby)

I think they did at some point and he still caused crashes.
Lulgrim I believe mentioned that he de-activated the cloak script for one of the updates but it didnt help.