Dawn of War Codex

He has both tankiness (540 health!) and very high damage (65 power melee dps!). He dies so rarely so I can't even remember the last time when he went down when I used slugga boyz. He does bring the ability that allows to be even tankier than heavy armored units for 8 seconds without suffering any penalties and it increases the speed by 1. It is overpowered, for sure. I think his damage output should be lowered. 50 power melee dps? Still seems like an insane amount of damage if you consider his high health pool (his damage output is always in play because he does not die)

Please let's discuss him in context; you are adding him to a very fragile melee unit that gets owned by heretics. He costs 25 power. He's a T2 upgrade, so he competes with things like the Weirdboy and Wartrukk.

He's not OP for the same reason the AC is not.

sluggas fragile? they have 1240 at lvl 1 in t2. 1950 at lvl 4

Sluggas with burnas can defeat AC heretics. All you have to do is shoot the heretics with your burnas in ranged stance before you engage, then hit Q then melee. If you run in and pull out quickly you also have a big fat chance of dodging most of the doomblast's damage, but you don't even need to do that.

burnas-sluggas defeat ac-heretics? o.O
got a replay of that?

OK, let's discuss them in context. They get supported by painboyz and weirdboyz. Fielding a vehicle is the only tactic these days to overcome that 2 subcommander abuse. And I didn't understand your point about competing with other units. You purchase a squad leader in order to make your squad better, it delays the purchase of any other T2 unit insignificantly. You will inevitably buy squad leaders. Here I claim that the slugga boyz nob leader brings too much benefits for just 25 power.

vanilla sluggas>vanilla tics for sure, not sure about burnas>ac tics and i feel like torpid is wrong here

sub zero you're also forgetting that the units that support them cost something, and that sluggas SUCK in t1and before someone comes and says that they dont, dying to everything in 2 seconds aint really good

M4573R_CH13f wrote:burnas-sluggas defeat ac-heretics? o.O
got a replay of that?

No I don't. However I did it yesterday for sure on retail. IIRC burnas were not stronger then and nor were sluggas and tics actually got reduced hp, or at the very least didn't get buffed combat performance. Note this is not just burna sluggas vs AC tics. I specifically said to beat them you have to shoot the incoming tics with your sluggas while your sluggas are in ranged stance so your burnas do the maximum amount of damage to them. Then you must waaaggggh. Then they beat them.

Vanilla sluggas vs vanilla tics is actually a fight that can go either way, or at least it can on retail, I know tics got a HP nerf on elite, however I'm pretty sure they can still win with only one good doomblast, but if you time it to get two good doomblasts it's an easy victory for vanilla tics, but then the ork can feign out your doomblasts too.

Sub_Zero wrote:He has both tankiness (540 health!)

He has 350 health.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... lugga_boyz

Check the Codex, etc., etc. The rest of the numbers are right. Carry on.

If slugga boyz underperfom in T1 then they should be overpowered in T2? What about finding balance between that? And yeah it is questionable that slugga boyz are bad in T1. And of course you can prove me wrong about my claim that their leader is OP. Just find a squad leader in this game that is so tanky and so killy compared to default members of his squad and who provides a good ability at the same time. The banshees' exarch? What does she give? High damage, that is for sure, a good ability, that is for sure but she is not tanky. And that is the fact that makes her balanced. The assault marines' squad leader? Is he tanky? Yes, probably. Does he bring a good ability? Yeah, for sure. Is he a damage dealer? No, you gotta be kidding me.

The only squad leaders that almost don't die in this game (at least that is how it happens when I play) are slugga boyz' nob leaders, dire avengers' exarchs and nobz' nob leaders.

Check the Codex, etc., etc. The rest of the numbers are right. Carry on.

Excuse me but I checked that in the game before posting. I had a squad of slugga boyz with 600 health and in T2 I purchased a nob leader. The squad's health bumped up to 1140. The Codex contains lots of mistakes which I haven't reported about. I will soon.

AC on Heretics don't die, add survivability and incredibly increase damage. WTG ignoring the initial comparison for the sake of argument.

Sub_Zero wrote:

Check the Codex, etc., etc. The rest of the numbers are right. Carry on.

Excuse me but I checked that in the game before posting. I had a squad of slugga boyz with 600 health and in T2 I purchased a nob leader. The squad's health bumped up to 1140.

And I checked in the game files before posting . That's because when he is purchased, he increases the squad's health by 20%. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics though. Regardless, if he has health as you argue it (and I guess he can't exist without the 20% buff, so I'll concede that), he would have 420 hp. I didn't mean offense, I just feel like a broken record when I say it.

The Codex contains lots of mistakes which I haven't reported about. I will soon.

I would appreciate it. Checking through every unit, ability, upgrade, etc. is really time consuming.

And the maths tells us that 20% multiplier does affect the nob so the nob really has 420hp and his presence grants swamp 'em and further buffs the hp of all sluggas in the squad by 20%.

I think he is too strong actually. He's doing too much, too well. A lot of his awesomeness does come from synergies with other heroes/subcommanders. UYC sluggas are awesome as are HDB sluggas as are battery pack sluggas. I don't think those abilities warrant nerfs though. I think what does warrant a nerf is the effect warpath has on sluggas and I also question whether or not swamp 'em really needs to grant +1 speed. The combination of swamp 'em + warpath atm is really rather insane. Warpath doesn't need to give out its damage buff, nor even a defensive buff. Maybe if warpath was nerfed swamp 'em's +1 speed would be fine, but maybe not we'd have to see.

I also think a reduction in the slugga nob's HP so that post-20% hp buff he has ~380 hp would be good and maybe reduce his damage to ~60dps.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:And the maths tells us that 20% multiplier does affect the nob so the nob really has 420hp and his presence grants swamp 'em and further buffs the hp of all sluggas in the squad by 20%.

Which would still leave him at 504. But he has 420. If you want to take Sub_Zero's numbers:

100 (hp of slugga) * 1.2 = 120

120*6 = 720

1140 - 720 = 420

The multiplier doesn't apply twice.

I know. He has 350hp, but he also grants the 20% multiplier which affects himself. Therefore whenever you encounter the slugga nob at maximum hp he will have 420hp.

M4573R_CH13f wrote:burnas-sluggas defeat ac-heretics? o.O
got a replay of that?

Slugga burnas are pretty hit and miss from what I've seen. They don't have guaranteed damage, sometimes they get decent damage in, sometimes they don't. But they can beat them you just have to get lucky.

If you've burned enough gens as me you'll see a pattern where you have to reposition them and redo the attack order to get them to do the right amounts of damage.

Same thing with hormas. You think you're being smart by doing that but sometimes it just doesn't happen and you get nommed.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:I know. He has 350hp, but he also grants the 20% multiplier which affects himself. Therefore whenever you encounter the slugga nob at maximum hp he will have 420hp.

Right. I thought you meant the 20% buff applied again My mistake

Wise Windu wrote:

Sub_Zero wrote:He has both tankiness (540 health!)

He has 350 health.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... lugga_boyz

Check the Codex, etc., etc. The rest of the numbers are right. Carry on.

he comes with a 20% squad wide hp buff that affects him too. He also gets affected by burnas 15% squad wide hp buff

So 420 minimum hp (without burnas). 472.5 with burnas (base hp buffs stack additively, they'll work in brackets for other stuff tho)

Sub_Zero wrote:If slugga boyz underperfom in T1

They dont for sure, just because they are not THE BEST MELEE SQUAD in t1 doesnt mean they underperform, they still beat several melee and dedicated melee squads in t1 and they can also function as anti garrison and gen bashing ninjas. How many squads can say the same?

Fun fact, a squad of sluggas with burnas in range stance will beat a squad of GM/termagaunts in a shoot out

My only complaint about the slugga nob is that he contains like 1/3 of the squad's dps all by himself (65/210 or so).

It just adds more randomness: often whether a unit dies in retreat or not has to do with whether the nob hit him or not.

Not to mention sluggas have one of the highest dps ranged t1 armies to back them up. No doubt about it whatsoever, sluggas do not underperform in t1. Just ask Mathis.

@Forest your complaint is that the slugga nob is too badass for the squad? Why can't all slugga boyz be as badass as the nob? Or why is the nob so much more badass than the slugga boyz?

My point is that it's too random. If the other models pathblock the nob, you might not get that retreat wipe.

Yeah, so either slugga boyz do too much or the the nob does too much. Which are you saying? Do you get me?

If it's too random the solution is to bring their dps values in line with one another? Are the boyz doing too little? Is the nob doing too much?

I suppose you could just say when the nob is added to the squad he should only do 50dps power melee, but the boyz should have their damage buffed by ~3 dps each.

i had felt this way for alittle that he was op, but then i took a step back and looked at it as a whole, the nob is a t2 upgrade and is basically a reward for keeping the squad alive (600 hp no upgrades, 690 with burnas) and if he were to get toned down, what would orks have for melee in t2? Stormboyz are good but not viable in all matchups not a unit you want tanking which sluggas often find themselves doing with their nob, and then there are stikks which have good melee skill but are extremely squishy. and that's it until the nobz get out (if they do)

oh and they have the painboy but again, he's not something you want tanking exactly, sure you can tank with him but the heal will wear off not to mention that is a very inefficient use of the heal on himself, just my thoughts on it. Sluggas are more difficult to keep alive than alot of people give credit for

the same can be said about Chaos and tics, or Nids with hormagaunts.

Not even the mighty OP nid t2 can survive with just fully upgraded hormagaunts in t2

The weirdboy is also one of the greatest counter-initiation tools in the game. Lowering the slugga nobs' hp by ~50 and his dps by ~5 is hardly going to remove all ork melee.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:

M4573R_CH13f wrote:burnas-sluggas defeat ac-heretics? o.O
got a replay of that?

No I don't. However I did it yesterday for sure on retail. IIRC burnas were not stronger then and nor were sluggas and tics actually got reduced hp, or at the very least didn't get buffed combat performance. Note this is not just burna sluggas vs AC tics. I specifically said to beat them you have to shoot the incoming tics with your sluggas while your sluggas are in ranged stance so your burnas do the maximum amount of damage to them. Then you must waaaggggh. Then they beat them.

Vanilla sluggas vs vanilla tics is actually a fight that can go either way, or at least it can on retail, I know tics got a HP nerf on elite, however I'm pretty sure they can still win with only one good doomblast, but if you time it to get two good doomblasts it's an easy victory for vanilla tics, but then the ork can feign out your doomblasts too.

How do you feign out something that is instantaneous? And why wouldn't the chaos player wait until they are fully engaged in melee? If the ork player starts dancing around, then just let the tics hack away. It sounds like the chaos player has to overeager on the doomblast button for this to work.

And trying to beat tics is incredibly risky for the ork because if the chaos player doesn't like the odds they have the option to doomblast and run, and if we're talking about AC tics then the AC's HP reserve can help them escape as well. T1 sluggas just have to cross their fingers and hope they live. Certainly it gets more complicated when you involve other units and globals but I'm assuming you're talking about a 1v1ish sort of situation.

I'm not saying sluggas aren't powerful, but the nob brings a lot of health and damage because in terms of combat capability that's pretty much all they've got going for them. They can't get suppression abilities or heavy melee damage, they have the second lowest melee skill for a dedicated melee squad (lowest if horms have melee synapse), and they aren't particularly fast. That's why I'd prefer looking at the supporting units/abilities first, particularly the weirdboy, who has been used to justify a nerf for practically every unit in the ork roster at some point.

Does the nob still give a speed buff or is that gone now? I don't see it in the codex but I thought I'd double check.

Arbit wrote:Does the nob still give a speed buff or is that gone now? I don't see it in the codex but I thought I'd double check.

Only if you use Swamp 'Em. No passive speed buff.

Um don't they get 10 ms from leader too?

Doesn't look that way, although the Nob does have 70 melee skill. I don't think he grants it to the squad.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Yeah, so either slugga boyz do too much or the the nob does too much. Which are you saying? Do you get me?

If it's too random the solution is to bring their dps values in line with one another? Are the boyz doing too little? Is the nob doing too much?

I suppose you could just say when the nob is added to the squad he should only do 50dps power melee, but the boyz should have their damage buffed by ~3 dps each.

I'm pointing out something that irritates me about sluggas

Not everything has to be some kind of 20000 word essay on why unit X is OP/UP/fine.