Khorne marines

[Sub_Zero]

First of all I will let you know that I have been using them for a really long time. I have always prefered them over tzeentch marines.

I'll talk about their characteristics and costs and compare them with other dedicated melee units.

At first let's have a look at the changes that have been done in elite mode.
Mark of Khorne cost incerased from 75/20 to 90/30
Mark of Khorne health bonus increased from 10% to 15%
Now you pay more and they are slightly better. Was the price increase justifiable? Was the buff justifiable? The buff was and the price increase was not. Let me explain that why the price increase was not justifiable. They are not like tzeentch marines, they are not superior to all melee units like tzeentch marines are to most ranged units and that is why they should not cost more than other strong T1 melee units. And now let me explain why the health buff was justifiable and why it is not enough to make them viable and cost efficient. They are already inferior to almost all other dedicated melee units and some help was needed. My experience shows that it was not enough.

Let's have a closer look at the advantages and disadvantages of khorne marines and of course compare it with other melee units.
The advantages:
-A fully upgraded squad consists of 4 members. That is their biggest advantage over other dedicated melee units. Each member is tanky and hence the squad retains its combat power longer because models die not so often.
-They have the best ranged damage among similar melee units. Although it is not a good trait for a melee unit but it should not be discarded.
The disadvantages:
-Heavy armor. That is the worst thing to have for a melee unit. It basically means that this unit will be suffering a lot in melee brawls which it is designed for. You would say that it helps them a lot to close in with ranged units that do piercing damage. That is true. However you also should remember that almost any strong melee unit have abilities to close in with a ranged unit. Banshees take 50% less ranged damage and are very fast while the ability is active, slugga boyz become faster and take 40% less ranged damage if the ability is active, genestealers receive 45% less ranged damage and become very fast if the ability is active, bloodletters warp out. So it basically means that their heavy armor is a disadvantage.
-A pathetic squad leader. The only thing that makes him a bit different from standard members is the melta pistol.

How they should be buffed? Their leader has to become better. He is the worst leader in the entire game, gives no bonuses, just an additional expensive to reinforce model. It is justified that the leader of tzeentch marines is just an additional model because they have some insane ranged damage output and even without any abilities demolish almost all ranged units. How to make him better? I don't think that health or damage buffs will be interesting. Any charged by damage ability might be interesting and some statistic buff like an increased melee skill (+5 for him?) or a passive chance to perform knockback (5%? 10%? 15%?). Mark of Khorne cost should be toned down to 25/20 power I think.

Please bear in mind that if you equip your only ranged damage dealer with melee weapons then this unit should be strong. What is the point otherwise to even buy khorne marines when you have bloodletters that overperform them on all fronts but chasing.

P. S. Why I decided to create this topic? Because a test I have made an hour ago finished me off. Fully upgraded level 1 slugga boyz murdered (their nob did) fully upgraded level 1 khorne marines. 410 req 40 power investment owned 585 req 70 power investment. Why do I roughly compare them? Because they both fulfill the same role.

[Raffa]

They can very lightly pressure transports too with the AC melta pistol.

Otherwise this is basically what I've said since ages. RE leader buff I think something is direly needed, but better than RNG maybe the Daemon Maul model (ok by fluff?) with a high MS.

Bit more rad, maybe consider a Blood Rage style ability for them with the AC?

The basic thing is TCSM are beasts, KCSM require alot more thought as they have no abilities to help them

[Wise Windu]

Mark of Khorne cost incerased from 75/20 to 90/30
Mark of Khorne health bonus increased from 10% to 15%

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ce_marines

Chaos Space Marines "Mark of Khorne" cost decreased from 90/30 to 70/30
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=166

No comment on the balance, just want to clear this up.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they will kill a falcon if they get into charge range and it isn't supported. i'd call that more than a light threat.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

KCSM well losing to Sluggaz is obviously a dead give-away,they can't beat a dedicated Melee squad considering how Cheap Sluggaz can be with 65/20 burnas upgrade +15% hp vs overall Cost price of CSM upgrades lol. The red Warrrgh abilities can just screw em over especially once they retreat, Sluggaz Swarm Em will peels models left & right . Their durability is quite stiff and not often lose models easily then TCSM.

KCSM are still a frail threat to Light transport vehicles and counter-initiation to ASM/GKI jump squads. Yet they become extremely dangerous under Bloodlust under khorne worship + Khorne shrines . Other two,Coruscating flames or TON on em when overwhelmed.
Their Progression goes from Offensive into Defensive role in T3,though 25/20 khorne upgrade reduction is low i would say

[David-CZ]

I think their DPS and price is fine. The only problem is their survivability. They need an ability of some sort that will cover their retreat if necessary. Or perhaps get a 50% worship heal as a daemon infected unit?

[Rataxas]

I think their DPS and price is fine. The only problem is their survivability. They need an ability of some sort that will cover their retreat if necessary. Or perhaps get a 50% worship heal as a daemon infected unit?

lol yeah maybe we should add extra worship for all units in chaos army... so they can heal up everything on the field no need to retreat

[appiah4]

Survivability is an issue, but it is an issue with all melee units. What hurts Chaos a bit more is that they have no transports or on-field reinforcement points unless you play the PC, and it really hurts.

Also, KCSM seem to work only when in pairs.

[David-CZ]

I think their DPS and price is fine. The only problem is their survivability. They need an ability of some sort that will cover their retreat if necessary. Or perhaps get a 50% worship heal as a daemon infected unit?

lol yeah maybe we should add extra worship for all units in chaos army... so they can heal up everything on the field no need to retreat

I don't really understand your point. I say 50% on one unit and your understanding of it is full heal on every Chaos unit. Wierd logic.

Survivability is an issue, but it is an issue with all melee units. What hurts Chaos a bit more is that they have no transports or on-field reinforcement points unless you play the PC, and it really hurts.

Also, KCSM seem to work only when in pairs.

True, but KCSM seem to suffer for it the most out of Chaos units.

[Torpid]

Depends on how you want to use your KCSM. If you charge them at armies they will bleed for sure because they don't have abilities to get into combat easily - however against IG their heavy infantry armour and high speed carries them all the way and they quickly overwhelm entire IG armies so long as they lack a HWT.

If for whatever reason charging head-first, or even flanking into an enemy army isn't working you can use KCSM in a CI (counter-initiation) role. I was thinking of a new build for the PC come next patch when he gets the CPMs.

(starting tics), CSM, CSM, node, node, havocs, tics, havocs -> T2 -> 2x autocannon upgrades, KCSM, PMs or CPMs ( depending on what the foe chooses to get in T2, ranged blob, vehicles or more initiation), PMs or CPMs (whatever I didn't get earlier), TCSM, Plague fist/pestilence/mucus discharge, turret, shrine -> t3 -> whatever.

KCSM work here because I already have the dual CSM from t1 so I've already sunk some costs into the CSM and they should have some exp too. Furthermore I have an army that doesn't have daemons in T2 and likely in T3 either, centred around a lot of healing (nurgle worship, mucus and shrine) so the marine heavy t2 is key. The dual autocannon force either artillery or initiation. KCSM do wonders to counter-initiate for me as well as being a rather good unit at dealing with artillery due to their speed and damage. I've often done fine with a single KCSM squad is my point.

Now, that said, I do still think KCSM are UP. No doubt they got nerfed tremendously in elite since the AC (who KCSM value far greater than TCSM) became significantly more expensive (66%). Furthermore the mark itself went up in price by 10 power and like Sub-Zero mentioned, only for a 5% increase in their hp? Meh. I think they warrant slightly more HP to be honest. That seems to be their job. Decent dps with good hp, a straight up brawler, no tricks about it, they just smack stuff up, kind of like the nobs. Either that or some buff to their AC would be good. I'm open minded to some new abilities such as a "rage" ability which increases their damage in melee and makes them immune to knockback or suppression or something and is charged up by taking damage. Just something to make them a bit more efficient for their cost.

[Barrogh]

Also, KCSM seem to work only when in pairs.

I'd put it like this: mass melee strat works when number of your squads reach that critical point where enemy can't pull off enough damage saturation to force them off before they silence enemy guns and at which point their numbers will be enough to force off/keep pressuring most dangerous ranged squads. It isn't even DoW-specific I'd say.

So obviously, engagement-wide charge will have much more success than some odd melee unit that won't even make it to enemy lines on foot.

That is unless we are talking about auxillary units that either posess specific purpose/abilities (like jump infantry), are scary damage sponges for your shooty army (some usage of ogryns, terminators) or, if that fails, simply powerhouses among your punier kind (nobz, seer council maybe...).

To think about it, Khornate marines represent a breed that is pretty rare in DoW2 - generic melee unit with no special purpose or abilities, which yet doesn't stand out much in terms of raw power/durability when compared to other units of its faction (what's with being a sidegrade of basic infantry).

[Forestradio]

I would give them the same increased health regen while "in combat" that purifiers and vanguard veterans have.

Ogryns might also have this, but I'm not sure.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

To sum up, TCSM > KCSM, because Chaos don't have other mobile ranged infantry squad while on the other hand Chaos have Blooletters, AC Heretics, Raptors and LC Terminators which could do a similar work and because KCSM scales a bit worse than TCSM except if you have leveled them to lvl 3 or 4.

KCSM are similar to Purifiers: they support to shine. That said, I need a little buff or change them a bit to make them more different to other Chaos melee squads.

[Tex]

I agree that KCSM are SLIGHTLY underpowered. I also think they seem much more underpowered because it is very tempting to compare them to TCSM.

The best thing I can think of for kcsm would be a flat rate lifesteal that rewards them for being in melee. I think it would be kinda fluffy as khorne rewards those who fight in melee with increased lust/vigor right?

I'm thinking a small, flat rate lifesteal would be best so that it can't get ridiculous in tandem with bloodlust.

If this ends up sounding dumb, then I would more than settle for an additional % of hp or a melee skill boost. These guys are just too easy to bring down.

With all this said however, I have had incredible success with KCSM WHEN I USE THEM. The key is knowing when to use them.

A great example would be this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoV44QdA ... 17C24D1117

[Tex]

Good point, but I did make him upgrade his dev into a las cannon to counter the crusher, thus opening the door for khorne to do his work.
That was sort of the point I was trying to make... you almost have to set up a certain set of circumstances so that doors open for the minions of khorne.

[M4573R_CH13f]

agree with all that. i think they just get overshadowed by the awesome straigh up buff of mot and the general awesomness of bloodletter, who are very cheap as well.

i would agree with that they need some kind of love, my idea would be a combination of what tex said with an ability, like a rage in genestealer-way, just not so strong. like 20% less ranged damage taken, 20% more damage done, slight lifesteel, maybe 3-5% per hit. seems reasonable for me, gens for comparison get 3 speed, 45% ranged dmg reduction, 5% steel, 40% damage.

[Broodwich]

If lifesteal than make it an ability like they shall know no fear that needs charging from taking damage. I'd really like to see KCSM get an ability just to make them more interesting

[appiah4]

Lifesteal sounds like it would be too OP, I really hate regenerate on hit kind of abilities, they can quickly make strong melee units over the top.

I think a very good buff would be to give them a +25% or +50% boost to red and experience they get from melee kills. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and all that.

[BaptismByLoli]

Jean-stealers have it and when combined with melee synapse ^^... Though it is an ability that needs to be activated first

[Barrogh]

Jean-stealers have it and when combined with melee synapse ^^... Though it is an ability that needs to be activated first

It also often used with aforementioned synapse, with all the benefits and drawbacks.

XP/red boost is rather original, but I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

Although if that would affect all the XP gained from KCSM kills, not just exp that KCSMs recieve, that would be at least, ahem, interesting.

Not sure if that can be done at all though.

[Sub_Zero]

So I am not the only one who thinks that khorne marines need some love. And here is the question. What do you think, Caeltos? Don't you want to make this unit more viable and interesting?

[Takadekadaka]

What about adding bloodrage from the khorne dreadnought to the KCSM? It would give them the closing ability and initial damage burst they need with an appropriate amount of risk added for the player using the ability stemming from their loss of control... At least from what I know

[Tex]

I think that would be far too powerful on KCSM simply because they can retreat immediately afterward. They would absolutely annihilate anything with the damage modifier and damage boost and move speed bonus that comes with bloodrage.

[Barrogh]

I think that an actual issue with that will arise when you want to to use more than one melee squad, limiting their usefulness outside of narrow roles.
I think retreat can be disabled for the duration and even for some time afterwards...

[Raffa]

I think that would be far too powerful on KCSM simply because they can retreat immediately afterward. They would absolutely annihilate anything with the damage modifier and damage boost and move speed bonus that comes with bloodrage.

Really? If it was made so you cannot retreat for the duration of the ability...

Suppression immunity but no knockback immunity, so still very vulnerable to high MS squads as they cannot retreat when kb'd. A situational ability that rewards good use and punishes throwaways.

[appiah4]

I think that would be far too powerful on KCSM simply because they can retreat immediately afterward. They would absolutely annihilate anything with the damage modifier and damage boost and move speed bonus that comes with bloodrage.

Really? If it was made so you cannot retreat for the duration of the ability...

Suppression immunity but no knockback immunity, so still very vulnerable to high MS squads as they cannot retreat when kb'd. A situational ability that rewards good use and punishes throwaways.

It would be worse than Aspect of Speed Banshees + loldar buffs against retreating units.

[Takadekadaka]

What if it also came with a debuff after the effects have worn off... maybe 50% reduced speed (including retreat speed, or simply disabling retreat for a period of time afterwards as well) and damage output is also halved for a short duration afterwards to balance out the ability. I think this would go well with what Raffa was pointing out could be a situational ability, as the potential post-bloodrage debuffs will put much more incentives for the player to really think about using the ability rather than making it a WAAAGH equivalent

[Vapor]

What if it also came with a debuff after the effects have worn off... maybe 50% reduced speed (including retreat speed, or simply disabling retreat for a period of time afterwards as well) and damage output is also halved for a short duration afterwards to balance out the ability.

I think not being able to retreat or switch targets manually would be enough drawbacks

[Tex]

Read...

I wrote "...retreat immediately afterwards..."

I never said they should be able to retreat out of the ability.

Regardless, KCSM with the buffs from bloodrage would beat the shit out of ANY melee unit excluding genestealers. A different set of modifiers would need to be made.

[Ace of Swords]

I don't think Kmarines need any buff they are fine as they are, but if anything, perhaps they could get something where they do the more damage the more model they lose or the more damage they take, something that can be high-risk high-reward.